Hop Stand temperatures and times

[philosofool]

Here's the short version: how long should a hop stand be at two hundred degrees? How long at 175? Which is better (or how do the results differ)?

One of the things that I'm trying to do this year is stabilize all my processes and then manipulate my beers through ingredients and temperatures. Obviously, to do this, one needs to pick good processes up front. For what it's worth, I do most of my brewing after my four year-old goes to bed and it's nice to go to bed before 1AM, so every minute counts.

 

[edroberts]

I think it really depends on what you are hoping to pull from your hops during your hopstand. If you are doing your hopstand above 170 degrees F, you're going to still pull some bitterness out (with higher isometratization closer to boiling). It's certainly not the same as during an active boil (some say in the neighborhood of 15% of the bittering) but it's certainly still there. As you get below 170, you progressively limit steaming off your hop oils and aromas. Get into the 150 range and pulling the oils gets slowly more difficult.

I personally prefer to hopstand in the 165-170 degree F range as I want to increase flavor over bitterness, but still get a different profile than what a dry hop would typically add.

 

[mtnagel]

I generally drop down to 180 and hold for 20-30 mins (or until I get bored). I read 180F online, so that's why I go with that temp. No real good reason. I do it on almost all my hoppy beers now. That probably doesn't help at all

 

[Kiichi]

I am a big hopstand fan and base mine on this article. https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands

I usually do either the 160-170 range or 140-150 (keeping it close to 150). The former I usually do for 60min and the later for 80min. You can of course get away with less, I just have the time and go for max extraction, which takes longer the lower the temp is.

Differnt temps extract different oils, with the 150 range retaining the most volatile ones.

If you are pressed for time I´d say do 160-170 for 45-60min. That should give you a really good kick.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Ditto here on the 170-ish range. My understanding is that isomerization (adding IBUs) takes place above 180F. So I do my hop stands at 175 for 30 min. This maximizes flavor/aroma extraction without adding IBUs. Once you get below 150, flavor and aroma extraction starts to decrease.

Hop stands below 180 add a good amount of flavor and aroma but no IBUs. Because smell influences our sense of taste, people may perceive an increase in bitterness even though no bitterness has actually been added.

 

[philosofool]

I am a big hopstand fan and base mine on this article. https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands

That article was perfect. Thanks.

I usually do either the 160-170 range or 140-150 (keeping it close to 150). The former I usually do for 60min and the later for 80min. You can of course get away with less, I just have the time and go for max extraction, which takes longer the lower the temp is.

Differnt temps extract different oils, with the 150 range retaining the most volatile ones.

If you are pressed for time I´d say do 160-170 for 45-60min. That should give you a really good kick.

Well, I'm going to have to think a bunch about my process and time. One of the things that I sometimes do is extract my mash, pasturize by boiling, flameout and then leave the lid on for 8-24 hours, then comeback and finish the brew day. This lets me split it into two ~3 hours sessions, which I might have to do when adding a 45 minute hop stand. I may also try a version of that where I finish the boil, begin a hop stand at 145 degrees and then leave it over night, draining to the fermenter, pitching, and cleaning in the morning. Since pitching and cleaning are about a 1 hour job, that would work okay.

 

[kombat]

Do you leave the lid off during the hopstand, potentially exposing the beer to contaminants, or put the lid on, potentially exposing the beer to condensation (and DMS precursors) dripping back into the wort?

 

[bobbrews]

I am assuming you are focusing on American IPAs here...

Myrcene, that amazing hop compound in American Pacific Northwest hops which offers flavors & aromas of citrus, fruit, and pine boils off at 167 F when lab tested.

Theoretically, if you were to hold say a 160-165 F hopstand for at least 30 minutes, then that would be best for hopstand purposes alone. That is enough time for extraction of oils, but longer could be better. The problem with dumping 90% of your kettle hops in at this point is that isomerization grinds to a halt. You're not getting some of that late boil "round" bitterness to go along with all of that flavor/aroma.

You will still get a blast of flavor and aroma in the broad "pitching temp to 180F" range. I typically add my hopstand additions at about 180F and let it cool down slowly down to pitch temps via an ice bath over the course of an hour.

If you think about it, a flameout addition is still steeping roughly at boiling temps. On an IBU level, there isn't much difference from a flameout vs. a 1 minute, 2 minute, 5 minute addition. Best results come from focusing on all three zones: hot/boil additions (mainly for bitterness with some flavor/aroma contributions up to a point), warm/hopstand additions (for intense flavor/aroma), and cold/dryhop additions (for a different, fresher kind of intense flavor/aroma). Different things happen to the hops when they react with the wort/beer at these different temps/times. If you want an insanely aromatic IPA with loads of hop character then the dryhop will be the most important area of focus, followed closely by the warm hopstand.

 

[edroberts]

Do you leave the lid off during the hopstand, potentially exposing the beer to contaminants, or put the lid on, potentially exposing the beer to condensation (and DMS precursors) dripping back into the wort?

Lid on. With a 60-90 minute boil, you should be driving off DMS anyway.

 

[cantrell00]

Do you leave the lid off during the hopstand, potentially exposing the beer to contaminants, or put the lid on, potentially exposing the beer to condensation (and DMS precursors) dripping back into the wort?

Typically covered.. When doing these extended hopstands - it is recommended to boil for 90 minutes..

 

[philosofool]

I am assuming you are focusing on American IPAs here...

Myrcene, that amazing hop compound in American Pacific Northwest hops which offers flavors & aromas of citrus, fruit, and pine boils off at 167 F when lab tested.

...snip...

Best results come from focusing on all three zones: hot/boil additions (mainly for bitterness with some flavor/aroma contributions up to a point), warm/hopstand additions (for intense flavor/aroma), and cold/dryhop additions (for a different, fresher kind of intense flavor/aroma). Different things happen to the hops when they react with the wort/beer at these different temps/times.

I can imagine using hop stands for lots of styles, though admittedly I ask because my next brew is a pilot for a competition IPA. Whirlpooling seems to have potential in American Stout, APA, maybe in an off-beat saison, etc. For less hoppy beers, you can probably deal with the volatility of the essential oils by uping your late kettle addition and then rapidly chilling, but the effect won't be identical.

Anyway, I like bitter beer, especially IPA, and find that IPAs that rely heavily on late hop additions are sweet and can have cloying hop flavors without the balance of true bitterness, so I'm not really looking to use whirlpooling as my sole source of IBUs.

 

[bobbrews]

I can imagine using hop stands for lots of styles, though admittedly I ask because my next brew is a pilot for a competition IPA. Whirlpooling seems to have potential in American Stout, APA, maybe in an off-beat saison, etc.

Absolutely, have you had Lagunitas Nighttime yet? If you close your eyes, it's hard to believe that it's a black ale. You can smell the hops from three feet away and it drinks like an IPA with a hint of dark chocolate. There's not much roastyness to it. It isn't abrasive like most black IPAs can be.

Anyway, I like bitter beer, especially IPA, and find that IPAs that rely heavily on late hop additions are sweet and can have cloying hop flavors without the balance of true bitterness, so I'm not really looking to use whirlpooling as my sole source of IBUs.

You can still have a bitter beer with tons of aroma that is also dry on the palate: Heady Topper & Pliny the Elder are two examples.

The perceived sweetness has to do with focusing too much on fruity hops. If you blast a lowly bittered IPA, finishing at 1.015 FG with Citra & Amarillo in the hopstand and dryhop, then you'll likely end up with a juicy tropical fruit bomb. This can be avoided by attaning just enough IBUs to keep the beer inherently bitter, lowering the FG, and using a hop combo that will offer more complexity. Fruity hop combos even come off as sweet to me in drier beers. Don't get me wrong, Citra & Amarillo are great together, but I tend to favor the hop character in those dank varieties like Columbus, Simcoe, Apollo. They play better with bitterness for my palate instead of subduing it.

 

[philosofool]

Absolutely, have you had Lagunitas Nighttime yet? If you close your eyes, it's hard to believe that it's a black ale. You can smell the hops from three feet away and it drinks like an IPA with a hint of dark chocolate. There's not much roastyness to it. It isn't abrasive like most black IPAs can be.



You can still have a bitter beer with tons of aroma that is also dry on the palate: Heady Topper & Pliny the Elder are two examples.

The perceived sweetness has to do with focusing too much on fruity hops. If you blast a lowly bittered IPA, finishing at 1.015 FG with Citra & Amarillo in the hopstand and dryhop, then you'll likely end up with a juicy tropical fruit bomb. This can be avoided by attaning just enough IBUs to keep the beer inherently bitter, lowering the FG, and using a hop combo that will offer more complexity. Fruity hop combos even come off as sweet to me in drier beers. Don't get me wrong, Citra & Amarillo are great together, but I tend to favor the hop character in those dank varieties like Columbus, Simcoe, Apollo. They play better with bitterness for my palate instead of subduing it.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you just said. I've never had Heady Topper (Vermont is 3,000 miles away) but Pliney (which I just finally got to try) I reviewed in my tasting notebook as "perfectly bitter, or almost." By the end of a pint, the bitterness lingers, but it doesn't blast you from drink one. I've had some IPAs recently--can't think of an example--that seemed all out of balance to me. What made Pliney really good (Okay, my bottle was 2 months old and it wasn't spectacular) was balance, balance, balance of various hoppy characteristics.

 

[bobbrews]

I never use the word balance to describe an IPA... maybe an APA with low IBUs and a distinct malt character to go along with the hop character.

But that word is much more friendly to something like an ESB. American IPAs, at least the good ones, are off-balance in a good way; it's all about the hops.

 

[philosofool]

I hardly ever use the word balance to describe an IPA... maybe an APA with low IBUs and a distinct malt character to go along with the hop character.

But that word is much more friendly to something like an ESB.

Balanced could mean "even in distrubution, equalized" or it could mean "having an overall distribution of elements that functions well; set up so as not to fall over" In the latter sense, Pliney is balanced. We can also talk about the balance of malt and hops, or we can talk about the balance of various hop characteristics (as I did above), and those characteristics are balanced pretty much in both meanings in the best IPAs.

 

[bobbrews]

Balanced could mean "even in distrubution, equalized" or it could mean "having an overall distribution of elements that functions well; set up so as not to fall over" In the latter sense, Pliney is balanced. We can also talk about the balance of malt and hops, or we can talk about the balance of various hop characteristics (as I did above), and those characteristics are balanced pretty much in both meanings in the best IPAs.

True, but Pliny is primarily (87%) bland 2-row with only 4% Crystal 45L. The Carapils and Corn sugar aren't adding any malt complexity. And they use clean California ale yeast. So when it boils down to it, you're looking at a very basic beer with no real malt/yeast interference, that is all about the hops.

The beer is still inherently bitter and dry. The early and middle hop additions set the beer well over 200-300 theoretical IBUs with lab testing of something like 80-90 IBUs. Even so, no balance there. Vinnie just assembled a good IIPA recipe that made sense and appealed to the masses based on the stellar hop profile. CTZ, Simcoe, and Centennial is one of my favorite all time hop combos. It's hard not to love that resiny, marijuana end result you get from the hop character when 90% of the AIPA market is flooded with fruity and/or citrusy variations.

 

[Kiichi]

I may also try a version of that where I finish the boil, begin a hop stand at 145 degrees and then leave it over night, draining to the fermenter, pitching, and cleaning in the morning. Since pitching and cleaning are about a 1 hour job, that would work okay.

I think this might work actually. What seems to be known is that that range continues to extract flavors after 60min, with 80min being the laste tested one I heard. Assuming further temperature drop combined with the prolonged exposure...it is somewhat of a hopstand / dryhop hybrid. It is hard to say if any unwanted flavors will also be extracted during that time, but bloody heck I´d say it is worth a shot.

So I ask you to please try it so I don´t have to blindly. =)

 

[cantrell00]

Here's the short version: how long should a hop stand be at two hundred degrees? How long at 175? Which is better (or how do the results differ)?

One of the things that I'm trying to do this year is stabilize all my processes and then manipulate my beers through ingredients and temperatures. Obviously, to do this, one needs to pick good processes up front. For what it's worth, I do most of my brewing after my four year-old goes to bed and it's nice to go to bed before 1AM, so every minute counts.

As it relates to processes, I can't recommend whirlpool hopstands enough... Particularly if you have an electrical kettle & can hold specific temps for specific duration with a PID controler...

Please see attached. This article & this method was a game changer for me... The temp of the wort & how long has a HUGE impact on final flavor & aroma...

http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

 

[geoffey]

True, but Pliny is primarily (87%) bland 2-row with only 4% Crystal 45L. The Carapils and Corn sugar aren't adding any malt complexity. And they use clean California ale yeast. So when it boils down to it, you're looking at a very basic beer with no real malt/yeast interference, that is all about the hops.



The beer is still inherently bitter and dry. The early and middle hop additions set the beer well over 200-300 theoretical IBUs with lab testing of something like 80-90 IBUs. Even so, no balance there. Vinnie just assembled a good IIPA recipe that made sense and appealed to the masses based on the stellar hop profile. CTZ, Simcoe, and Centennial is one of my favorite all time hop combos. It's hard not to love that resiny, marijuana end result you get from the hop character when 90% of the AIPA market is flooded with fruity and/or citrusy variations.

Sorry, but I think you're missing the point here somehow. Or I'm just going to disagree with you😀. But absolutely an IPA can be balanced. That was my first impression after tasting Pliny for the first time, how amazingly balanced it came across for a IIPA. Balanced compared to a pale ale? Nope. Balanced vs a light lager? Nope. But balanced vs almost every other IPA or IIPA? Absolutely.

 

[cantrell00]

Sorry, but I think you're missing the point here somehow. Or I'm just going to disagree with you��. But absolutely an IPA can be balanced. That was my first impression after tasting Pliny for the first time, how amazingly balanced it came across for a IIPA. Balanced compared to a pale ale? Nope. Balanced vs a light lager? Nope. But balanced vs almost every other IPA or IIPA? Absolutely.

You guys are saying the same thing... Balance implies that the flavor of the beer, hop vs malt balance, is of equal portion on the palette.

Any IPA worth it's salt is hop forward in a very disproportionate way.

How out of proportion one is vs the other is a matter of how the beer tastes & without a doubt, subjective. But never balanced.

Here is an experiment to try.. Don't drink a APA/IPA for a month & then have one.. Hell, grab a moderately hopped pale & try it... You will realize real quick just how out of balance it is...

 

[Kiichi]

IPAs and IIPAs are unbalanced in terms of general beer styles. That is just the essential idea behind them. However, within the style there can be ones that are more balanced than others. It is all relative.

As cantrello said we basically all agree, we are just talking in different dimensions.

Hopstands also come into this though imho, because this way you can add huge amounts of flavor and aroma without screwing the balance compared to other hop addition methods. Again relativity.

I am not liking a lot of the west coast style IPAs because they are more bitter than anything else. For me bitterness must always be a means of balance. So for my optimal IPA I want to maximise hop flavor and aroma, through mostly hop stands and some dryhop, put that on a canvass of malt so it feels nice in the mouth and has enough sweetness to make the fruit notes come alive and then have the bitterness not overtake everything, but rather keep it from becoming too fruity sweet. Counterweight style.

A great IPA should be decidedly bitter because the other flavors call for it, not because it simply must pucker the heck out of you.

 

[cantrell00]

IPAs and IIPAs are unbalanced in terms of general beer styles. That is just the essential idea behind them. However, within the style there can be ones that are more balanced than others. It is all relative.

As cantrello said we basically all agree, we are just talking in different dimensions.

Hopstands also come into this though imho, because this way you can add huge amounts of flavor and aroma without screwing the balance compared to other hop addition methods. Again relativity.

I am not liking a lot of the west coast style IPAs because they are more bitter than anything else. For me bitterness must always be a means of balance. So for my optimal IPA I want to maximise hop flavor and aroma, through mostly hop stands and some dryhop, put that on a canvass of malt so it feels nice in the mouth and has enough sweetness to make the fruit notes come alive and then have the bitterness not overtake everything, but rather keep it from becoming too fruity sweet. Counterweight style.

A great IPA should be decidedly bitter because the other flavors call for it, not because it simply must pucker the heck out of you.

Ive found that the least puckering IPA are what i enjoy the most so i completely agree!

Late hopping at less than boiling temps rule!

 

[bobbrews]

I am not liking a lot of the west coast style IPAs because they are more bitter than anything else. For me bitterness must always be a means of balance.

Pliny is a west coast example. In fact, most of the best IPAs come from the west coast and/or are made in the West coast style.

In the end, palates differ. Bitterness and dryness is one of the last general flavor concepts that a palate can appreciate. As kids, we love sweetness and generally despise bitterness. It is one of the last flavors we grow very fond of. This often carries on into adulthood and is never shaken with some people. I personally favor bitterness; also, with IPAs, the drier the better, which accentuates the bitterness. Other people may disagree and that is fine. It still doesn't change the fact that IPAs are primarily a bitter beer style when compared to the rest of the styles.

 

[philosofool]

It still doesn't change the fact that IPAs are primarily a bitter beer style when compared to the rest of the styles.

This is 100% correct.

There is a huge space for hoppy and not so bitter beer in the market place, but the BJCP style guideline is correct:

A decidedly hoppy and bitter, moderately strong American pale ale, showcasing modern American and New World hop varieties. The balance is hop-forward, with a clean fermentation profile, dryish finish, and clean, supporting malt allowing a creative range of hop character to shine through​

That's the draft 2014 guideline, and the 2008 style is more or less the same. I am all for innovation, but IPA is a west coast american style. Out of style, moderately malty, not-american-IPA beers need to own up to the "Strong, pale, american ale" label.

 

[kombat]

I actually tried my first hopstand on a brew I did this weekend. I didn't actually do any hop additions at all during the boil. I used hops in the mash, then first wort hopping for my bittering addition. After the boil finished, I chilled it to 185° F, then added my hopstand addition (3 oz pellet hops in a hop sock I had boiled in plain water earlier). I gave the wort a good swirl with my (sanitized) spoon, then put the lid on and left it for 20 minutes while I prepped/rehydrated the US-05 yeast. When I came back, the temperature had dropped to 170° F (it was in my garage which was around 5° F on Saturday).

I then finished chilling it down to 65° F (which took maybe 3 minutes with my plate chiller and Canadian February tap water), racked to a carboy, aerated, pitched the yeast, and it's fermenting away in my fermentation chamber at 63.5° F. I plan to dry hop as well. I'm anxious to see how this batch turns out. It was also my first attempt at an overnight mash (mash was 154.4° F when I sealed up the tun, had dropped to 139.9° F by the next morning, 10 hours later).

 

[cantrell00]

I actually tried my first hopstand on a brew I did this weekend. I didn't actually do any hop additions at all during the boil. I used hops in the mash, then first wort hopping for my bittering addition. After the boil finished, I chilled it to 185° F, then added my hopstand addition (3 oz pellet hops in a hop sock I had boiled in plain water earlier). I gave the wort a good swirl with my (sanitized) spoon, then put the lid on and left it for 20 minutes while I prepped/rehydrated the US-05 yeast. When I came back, the temperature had dropped to 170° F (it was in my garage which was around 5° F on Saturday).

I then finished chilling it down to 65° F (which took maybe 3 minutes with my plate chiller and Canadian February tap water), racked to a carboy, aerated, pitched the yeast, and it's fermenting away in my fermentation chamber at 63.5° F. I plan to dry hop as well. I'm anxious to see how this batch turns out. It was also my first attempt at an overnight mash (mash was 154.4° F when I sealed up the tun, had dropped to 139.9° F by the next morning, 10 hours later).

If you added them at 185 there was no need to sterilize or boil anything prior. 185 will kill bacteria just as efficiently as 212... Just an FYI to save you some trouble...

 

[Brettomomyces]

I am assuming you are focusing on American IPAs here...

Myrcene, that amazing hop compound in American Pacific Northwest hops which offers flavors & aromas of citrus, fruit, and pine boils off at 167 F when lab tested.

Theoretically, if you were to hold say a 160-165 F hopstand for at least 30 minutes, then that would be best for hopstand purposes alone. That is enough time for extraction of oils, but longer could be better. The problem with dumping 90% of your kettle hops in at this point is that isomerization grinds to a halt. You're not getting some of that late boil "round" bitterness to go along with all of that flavor/aroma.

You will still get a blast of flavor and aroma in the broad "pitching temp to 180F" range. I typically add my hopstand additions at about 180F and let it cool down slowly down to pitch temps via an ice bath over the course of an hour.

If you think about it, a flameout addition is still steeping roughly at boiling temps. On an IBU level, there isn't much difference from a flameout vs. a 1 minute, 2 minute, 5 minute addition. Best results come from focusing on all three zones: hot/boil additions (mainly for bitterness with some flavor/aroma contributions up to a point), warm/hopstand additions (for intense flavor/aroma), and cold/dryhop additions (for a different, fresher kind of intense flavor/aroma). Different things happen to the hops when they react with the wort/beer at these different temps/times. If you want an insanely aromatic IPA with loads of hop character then the dryhop will be the most important area of focus, followed closely by the warm hopstand.

I've done a couple hop stands, and while I've liked the results I feel like it could be better. So, I took your advice for my all cascade IPA on Sunday. Chilled it down to 160 and held it there while recirculating the whole batch. Then added 6oz of hops, put the lid back on, set my PID for 160 and walked away for an hour. Periodically lifted the lid to get a smell/peak, and the aroma was intense. It was pretty incredible. It's fermenting away with 1217 right now, and I'm going to dry hop it with 6oz (10 gallon batch) for 5 days after primary is over. Really excited for this beer.

 

[Kiichi]

Interested to hear how it comes out. That pretty much goes for all people experimenting with it.

I have a wheat saison hopped to IPA levels fermenting away that used a dual hopstand. Split the wort into two pots and had one sit for 80min at 150 and one for 60min at 165. Both had loads a mix of Magnum, Northern Brewer, East Kent Golding, and Saaz. Thought it might work to get the best of both ranges. Now bubbling away with french saison yeast for 9 days now. First round of dryhop is started and it smells brilliantly of lemon backed with flowers, hoppy spices, and earthy notes. Like a super fresh, light, yet hearty beer. High hopes.

 

[gotbags-10]

Brett. Please post your results when your beer is ready. Very curious

 

[Brettomomyces]

I will definitely. Beer was pitched with a big starter of wyeast west coast IPA 1217, estimated at least 400 billion cells (it was higher but I had to steal some to krausen my pilsner that unexpectedly stalled at 1.017...) OG of 1.063. Assuming the IBU is going to be lower due to the 160 stand, but should be nice and dry. Also added 12g gypsum to mash and 3g to BK to put my sulfates just over 200. Mash was adjusted with lactic acid to get pH about 5.2-5.3, sparge water acidified as well.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Cascade IPA
Brewer: Tom
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (TBD)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.21 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.00 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 6.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 53.3 IBUs + bitterness from whirlpool addition
Brewhouse Efficiency: 76.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 77.9 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
20 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 87.2 %
1 lbs Wheat - Red Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 2 4.3 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.1 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.1 %
1 lbs Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 6 4.3 %

2.00 oz Cascade [8.20 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 5 33.5 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [8.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 14.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [8.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 5.7 IBUs
6.00 oz Cascade [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 60 Hop 9 TBD IBUs
6.00 oz Cascade [8.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs