Hop Stand technique question

[Patirck]

I'm planning on trying a hop stand for the first time. I am primarily interested with getting as much hop flavor and aroma as possible while having just enough bitterness to offset the malt.

I happen to have a sack of maris otter and some left over c-80 so I plan on using that for the grain bill. I also have a pound of cascade pellets to get through.

I have read several posts about this technique and as near as I can tell, there seems to be a consensus that the best way to calculate the IBUs gained from a hop stand is to count them as 10 - 20 minute boil additions. I'm going to add some bittering hops at 45 minutes and then wait until after flame out and chill to 180, add the next set, whirlpool gently, turn the flame on to keep it at 180 for 20 minutes, then chill to 160, add the remaining hop addition, whirlpool gently, keep it at 160 for 20 or 30 minutes, then chill as normal, put it in fermenters and pitch us-05. Once done with primary, I may or may not dry hop depending on flavor and aroma.

Has anyone else done it like this?

Are the IBU calculations even close (late boil additions vs. post boil/steep additions)

Am I missing something?



BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hop Stand nov 2013
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.22 gal
Post Boil Volume: 13.00 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 12.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 11.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.043 SG
Estimated Color: 7.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
18 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 94.7 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.3 %
1.25 oz Cascade [7.30 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 3 13.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [7.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 4 11.9 IBUs - added post boil at 180* for 20 min
2.50 oz Cascade [7.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 10.9 IBUs added post boil at 160* for 30 min
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 6 -


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 19 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 6.44 gal of water at 165.2 F 152.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (7.08gal, 2.48gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Ryfi]

I've been doing hops stands for my last couple ipas and have been pleased with the results. I calculate as if it was a 10 min addition as well. Your second hop stand addition shouldn't add any ibu's since its below 170 according to this http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands That article is what I followed my first time and tweaked from there.

 

[Patirck]

Your second hop stand addition shouldn't add any ibu's since its below 170

Thanks for the response...

Is it worth doing a hop addition like this when the wort is below 170?

Does a below 170* addition do the same a dry hop addition?

 

[stpug]

Probably lots of varying opinions on this, so here's mine:

-I would count on ANY IBUs coming from a hop stand of ~180ish. Calculate it as 0 IBUs.
-I would add all hops at 180F and simply let them temperature naturally drop to 160-170F before full cooling.
-I would aim for a long hop stand to maximize aroma/flavor components (80 minutes is not unreasonable).
-I would make sure you dry hop this beer to complement the hop stand.

 

[tgmartin000]

I've never gone over 45 minutes or so. If you add the hops at knockout, you'll get some bittering (equavalent to the 10-20 min addition), but if you chill to 160, you won't get the bittering. I think myrcene volatilizes at 160 or so.

Also, keep in mind you can get DMS if you keep your wort hot for too long. I think it's more in the 2 hour range though.

After some experimenting, I think a hop stand at about 150 for about 30 min is pretty solid. About 3 oz for 5 gallons is a good start. Then dry hop with 4+ oz.

 

[Ryfi]

The way I look at a hop stand below 170 is like this: if you eat a raw vegetable and one that has been blanched they will taste slightly different. So a hop stand below 170 isn't a substitute for dry hopping it just adds more depth to the hop flavor.

 

[sweetcell]

If you add the hops at knockout, you'll get some bittering (equavalent to the 10-20 min addition)

I've been doing hops stands for my last couple ipas and have been pleased with the results. I calculate as if it was a 10 min addition as well.

question: people (and most recipe calculators) usually assume zero IBUs from flameout/knockout additions. when doing a hop-stand, we all agree that this isn't the case and that we need to assume a contribution (equivalent to a 10 min, 20 min, whatever).

but what about your pre-knockout additions? that 15 minute addition is not longer isomerizing for just 15 minutes - it will continue isomerizing during the hop stand. so shouldn't ALL hop additions be jacked up when doing a hop stand? shouldn't we re-assess the 60 min addition to be contributing like 70 or 80 min? it's not just the flameout addition that will isomerize during the hop stand, all hops will.

thoughts?

 

[Ryfi]

Great point I had never thought of that. Time to do some more research...

 

[stpug]

I don't agree that there's much, if any, IBU contribution from a knockout or hopstand addition. If there is, IMO, it's negligible and not worth calculating (i.e. 1-2 IBU contribution). Besides, whose IBU estimating formula are you using?

As for the other hop additions (bittering, mid, late), again, these will stop isomerizing once the temp drops below a threshold and will move slower the cooler the wort gets. Again, IMO, these are negligible contributions to overall IBUs in the brew. And, again, whose IBU estimating formula are you using?

 

[05m50dan]

You will definitely get some continued isomerization from the bittering/flavoring hops added during the boil during a long hop stand, on top of the bittering you get from the flameout/hop stand hops. 2 ways to deal with that...1, decrease the amount of bittering/flavor hops (I would start with about 25% less, and rework from there), or 2, put the bittering hops/ flavor hops in a hop sack/spider and remove them at flame out...if they are not in the beer, they wont continue to add more to it. Then just toss your flameout/hop stand hops in, wait, whirlpool, chill, and carboy it.

 

[Patirck]

1, decrease the amount of bittering/flavor hops (I would start with about 25% less, and rework from there), or

2, put the bittering hops/ flavor hops in a hop sack/spider and remove them at flame out...if they are not in the beer, they wont continue to add more to it. Then just toss your flameout/hop stand hops in, wait, whirlpool, chill, and carboy it.

This is a very interesting reply. I have a few questions:
for 1 - How do you arrive at 25%? Are you saying if I want to arrive at 35 ibus, should I reduce the bittering addition by 25% and add it back to the hop stand addition?

for 2 - Aren't the oils already extracted from the boil and no longer in the hop sack attached to the hop particles? I thought the process of boiling caused isomerzation (at a increased rate compared to 190 or 170...) and that it was essentially breaking down the hop oil in to smaller and smaller particles and causing other hop oils to volatilizes making the bitterness more apparent? I"m sure there are some stuff left in the hop sack but after 45 minutes, I think most of it would be floating around the kettle wouldn't it?

 

[05m50dan]

What I'm trying to say is that you will get added bitterness from the hop stand. Just because you turn off the flame, doesn't mean you stop isomerizing AA's. You will continue to get bitterness from the flameout hops in a long hop stand. Its very hard to calculate how much, but there will be some bitterness added. I suggested dropping the bittering addition by 25% assuming you've made this recipe before without the hop stand and were happy with the bitterness...if you're using something like BeerSmith to calculate bitterness, I don't think it adds anything for the hop stand, so if you're getting 35 IBUs for the calculation I'd decrease the bittering addition by about 25%. I not a huge fan of very bitter beer, so I'd rather err on the lower end and adjust up the next time I make it.
As to the hop sac removal, you will continue to extract oil from them as long as they are in the beer. Most of it will already be extracted, but not 100%. I would do either one or the other, not both.