Thanks for the info!add a squirt (just a squirt!) of either Jet Dry or unfragranced hand dish detergent (Dawn is really best). The Jet Dry will be non-foaming, the Dawn will foam -- your choice.
Of course they do, thoroughly wetting is part of their action.... PBW, Star San, Iodophor, etc all have surfactants.
No thoughts on a gelling agent, but add approx a tablespoon of baking soda for every oz of pbw equivalent will help reduce foaming.Thanks for the info!
Is this what you're talking about?
https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Jet-Dry-Rinse-Dishwasher-Drying/dp/B00C9SOB1K
I need a non-foaming surfactant to use with my bottle washer.
Any thoughts on "gelling agents"?
I thought metasilicate was more strongly basic than carbonate. Having just looked it up, (someone on) the internet says metasilicate is a builder which increases surfactant effectiveness by softening water, or (as a strong base) saponifying oils. What would you say its use is for in brewery cleaners?If you have no aluminum in your process, skip the metasilicate, go 70:30 carbonate : percarbonate and add a squirt (just a squirt!) of either Jet Dry or unfragranced hand dish detergent (Dawn is really best). The Jet Dry will be non-foaming, the Dawn will foam -- your choice.
I can't imagine this making much difference, as a small amount of citric acid will be taken care of by the large amount of base. If needed, adding a bit of lye (or more carbonate) should take care of it.Citric Acid in the presence of an overabundance of Na2CO3? No wonder it's disappointing.
Any suggestions about which ones? It's probably a polymer or a vegetable gum, but I have a bad feeling about using vegetable gums in cleaning products.PBW also has surfactant and gelling agents. Until you add those also it won't be the same.
You can get low-foam or non-foaming surfactants, but the trick is getting one which can be bought in small quantities. If you can't get that type in particular, nonionic surfactants foam less than anionic surfactants (so don't use dish soap). Also, I've read that in some cases mixed surfactants can make a more stable foam than a single surfactant, so keep your eyes open for that and be willing to change products.I need a non-foaming surfactant to use with my bottle washer.
I should clarify ... It doesn't remove the residue from my kettle.Kettle: The metasilicate + percarbonate still leaves residue on the bottom of my kettle
I thought metasilicate was more strongly basic than carbonate. Having just looked it up, (someone on) the internet says metasilicate is a builder which increases surfactant effectiveness by softening water, or (as a strong base) saponifying oils. What would you say its use is for in brewery cleaners?
Any suggestions about which ones? It's probably a polymer or a vegetable gum, but I have a bad feeling about using vegetable gums in cleaning products.
You can get low-foam or non-foaming surfactants, but the trick is getting one which can be bought in small quantities. If you can't get that type in particular, nonionic surfactants foam less than anionic surfactants (so don't use dish soap). Also, I've read that in some cases mixed surfactants can make a more stable foam than a single surfactant, so keep your eyes open for that and be willing to change products.
I'm curious about adding d-limonene (orange oil) to the mix, as it's supposed to reduce foam, and unlike silicone, it won't leave residue that sticks around forever. I imagine it will mess with head retention if not fully dried.
If PBW doesn't really work as well as you would like, there are some things you can do. If you have no aluminum in your process, skip the metasilicate, go 70:30 carbonateercarbonate and add a squirt (just a squirt!) of either Jet Dry or unfragranced hand dish detergent (Dawn is really best). The Jet Dry will be non-foaming, the Dawn will foam -- your choice.
What do I use? My company's knock-off of PBW (ours doesn't have metasilicate in it) for most things. For really bad cleaning jobs in my home brewery, I bring out the big dogs (the potassium hydroxide-based stuff).
If NaOh or KOh is what your looking for, there are several places that will sell these strong caustics to the general public.
https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselchemicals.php
https://hvchemical.com/product/caustic-soda-beads-1-lb/
70:30 by weight? - percabonate and metasilicate (or tsp).
And when you say add a squirt, I assume you mean add it at cleaning time and not when making up a big batch. Yes, add liquid at mixng into solution.
Is there anything special I should be looking for when buying sodium carbonate and percarbonate? Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?
Percabonate decomposes in water to sodium carbonate. I like to mix both percabonate and sodium carbonate. As the Percarbonate mixes with h2o, it disassociates into O2 and sodium carbonate. I use both so the Percarbonate has the washong soda as an alkali detergent in the h2o. Also makes ot slightly less caustic than percabonate alone. Mix with tsp (or metasilicate) yes, ok from amazon.
Just be very careful. PBW will give you dry hands if you get it on you. This stuff will burn your flesh off.
70:30 by weight?
Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?
70:30 by weight? - percabonate and metasilicate (or tsp).
And when you say add a squirt, I assume you mean add it at cleaning time and not when making up a big batch. Yes, add liquid at mixng into solution.
Is there anything special I should be looking for when buying sodium carbonate and percarbonate? Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?
Percabonate decomposes in water to sodium carbonate. I like to mix both percabonate and sodium carbonate. As the Percarbonate mixes with h2o, it disassociates into O2 and sodium carbonate. I use both so the Percarbonate has the washong soda as an alkali detergent in the h2o. Also makes ot slightly less caustic than percabonate alone. Mix with tsp (or metasilicate) yes, ok from amazon.
I just use a scoop, means I'm doing it by volume, which to the sciency background in me is all wrong but it's close enough.
I just buy off ebay and/or amazon. Sodium percarbonate and TSP/90.
Read through a few pages of this thread. Thanks everyone. Great info, but I have not read it all. Can someone suggest a recipe with the ingredients I have on hand? Thanks in advance. I have the following:
- sodium carbonate
- sodium percarbonate
- sodium metasilicate
- sodium laureth sulfate (a surfactant)
it is curious that I see only a period here in HBT but the email notification of your post in this thread showed:
Anyway, I use 2:1, sodium percarbonate to TSP/90, by volume, to make homemade PBW-ish cleaner and use approx 1oz per gallon (never measuring the 1oz, I just throw some in).
Anyway, I use 2:1, sodium percarbonate to TSP/90, by volume, to make homemade PBW-ish cleaner and use approx 1oz per gallon (never measuring the 1oz, I just throw some in).
Oxiclean, or one of the cheaper generics, is fine.Should using pure sodium percarbonate vs. oxiclean yield better results or should one expect about the same?
I use 100% sodium percarbonate and buy it in bulk, along with the sodium metasilicate. I use Finish Jet Dry as the source of the surfactant, gelling agent, and chelation agent.Should using pure sodium percarbonate vs. oxiclean yield better results or should one expect about the same?
I have to agree about the percatbonate. I had two kegs, kicked about same time w similar brown ale/Altbier. Left “a bit” before cleaning. Out the homemade PBW in one w some water, shook once every couple minutes, clean in 20 which I read is about the time the oxygen lasts in the percarbonate. I xfr to other keg, same shake same time, did not get it done. Added another scoop and it was done in 10 minutes. I firmly believe in the bubbles. Scrubbing or otherwise.I use 100% sodium percarbonate and buy it in bulk, along with the sodium metasilicate. I use Finish Jet Dry as the source of the surfactant, gelling agent, and chelation agent.
The percarbonate is highly underrated in my opinion since it very aggressively reacts with organic matter to break it down and the hydrogen peroxide it releases is also a strong antimicrobial. In a clear carboy you can see it dissolving the kräusen ring in a matter of seconds-minutes.
Thanks again. I picked up some Jet Dry and I'll report back when I see how it does. The ingredients look a lot better than the 7th Gen.
Ingredients:
http://www.rbnainfo.com/product.php?productLineId=654
Cleaning sucks.
No. I'm not sure what a good test would be since this quickly removes all visible organic matter.Did you ever test PBW vs home made?
No. I'm not sure what a good test would be since this quickly removes all visible organic matter.
Chemically it has all the same components as PBW without anything conflicting (unlike the original recipe in this thread), so I expect the performance is similar.
Like professional breweries, I follow it with an acid rinse to remove inorganic residue. (Water rinse before and after each step.)
3-4 parts Sodium percarbonateWhat are you using for home made now? I've tried to follow the thread but there are so many ingredients being said, my head is spinning. I did follow the original one but that bucket is running out. Wondering whether I should make more DIY version or just buy PBW. If you like what you are making, I may try that.
I just bought Milk Stone remover and will start doing an acid rinse as well.
3-4 parts Sodium percarbonate
1 part Sodium metasilicate
1 squirt Jet Dry liquid
I buy in bulk from Amazon and mix them when needed. Jet Dry is readily available at local stores too.
It's a LOT less expensive than PBW.
There are rare instances when something will need a quick scrub with a normal sponge.
I also use BKF as needed to return stainless to it's original luster, and citric acid as needed for passivation.
In the off chance you're using any aluminum, remember that you don't want to strip the dull oxide layer.
I've tried using more simple mixtures but they are noticably less effective. YMMV.
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