Homemade PBW Recipe

[RPh_Guy]

... PBW, Star San, Iodophor, etc all have surfactants.

 

[RPh_Guy]

add a squirt (just a squirt!) of either Jet Dry or unfragranced hand dish detergent (Dawn is really best). The Jet Dry will be non-foaming, the Dawn will foam -- your choice.

Thanks for the info!
Is this what you're talking about?
https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Jet-Dry-Rinse-Dishwasher-Drying/dp/B00C9SOB1K

I need a non-foaming surfactant to use with my bottle washer.

Any thoughts on "gelling agents"?

 

[IslandLizard]

... PBW, Star San, Iodophor, etc all have surfactants.

Of course they do, thoroughly wetting is part of their action.
I was under the impression the kind of surfactant used made all the difference, hence dish detergents were out.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm in the same camp as @IslandLizard , I recently used the last of my homemade PBW and bought a pound jar of PBW which seems to work much better than what I made up. I used the older formula with oxi-free, real TSP and 7th gen according to the ratios posted far back in this thread.

My cleaning routine at the end of a brew day is always the same; rinse the kettle out a few times to get rid of all free particulate, scrub brush on the crud up the sides of the kettle, then refill to cover the elements (~2.5 gallons) add 3 oz. diy pbw, then recirc with pump while heating to 180f, let run ~20 minutes while slowly cycling each ball valve ~8-10 times, then drain, recirculate with clear water and rinse.

Previously, when I would disassemble my camlocks the inside surfaces always had a stubborn brown buildup, along with bits of residue in my ball valves and SS pump head. I just accepted the brown residue and junk in the valves as unavoidable and requiring periodic tear down every 6-8 batches.

This past Sunday I disassembled everything to inspect for potential sources of infection (haven't had one, would like to keep it that way) and was bowled over by how spotlessly clean the interior surfaces were, not a speck of residue ANYWHERE and I mean even inside the ball valves under the PTFE seals. Unless brewery elves have been cleaning my rig at night, my cleaning process with PBW was far more effective than the same exact routine with DIY PBW.

I plan to mix up another (small) batch of DIY, this time with only Oxi-free and TSP90, skipping the 7th gen. My guess is that PBW is formulated to work well with even worst-case-scenario well water contains things that most home brewers do not need. If my new batch doesn't result in the sparkling clean result of PBW, I'm going to just cough up the difference for the real deal.

 

[S-Met]

Thanks for the info!
Is this what you're talking about?
https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Jet-Dry-Rinse-Dishwasher-Drying/dp/B00C9SOB1K

I need a non-foaming surfactant to use with my bottle washer.

Any thoughts on "gelling agents"?

No thoughts on a gelling agent, but add approx a tablespoon of baking soda for every oz of pbw equivalent will help reduce foaming.

Downside is it introduces sodium into the solution for those with stainless steel. I dont know why it reduces the foaming, but helps my dishwasher not foam over with regular dishsoap when I run out of regular detergent.

 

[balrog]

I just use tsp90 and bulk sodium percarbonate. Perhaps I am lucky to have not had anything particularly gnarly to clean.

 

[piojo]

If you have no aluminum in your process, skip the metasilicate, go 70:30 carbonate : percarbonate and add a squirt (just a squirt!) of either Jet Dry or unfragranced hand dish detergent (Dawn is really best). The Jet Dry will be non-foaming, the Dawn will foam -- your choice.

I thought metasilicate was more strongly basic than carbonate. Having just looked it up, (someone on) the internet says metasilicate is a builder which increases surfactant effectiveness by softening water, or (as a strong base) saponifying oils. What would you say its use is for in brewery cleaners?

Citric Acid in the presence of an overabundance of Na2CO3? No wonder it's disappointing.

I can't imagine this making much difference, as a small amount of citric acid will be taken care of by the large amount of base. If needed, adding a bit of lye (or more carbonate) should take care of it.

PBW also has surfactant and gelling agents. Until you add those also it won't be the same.

Any suggestions about which ones? It's probably a polymer or a vegetable gum, but I have a bad feeling about using vegetable gums in cleaning products.

I need a non-foaming surfactant to use with my bottle washer.

You can get low-foam or non-foaming surfactants, but the trick is getting one which can be bought in small quantities. If you can't get that type in particular, nonionic surfactants foam less than anionic surfactants (so don't use dish soap). Also, I've read that in some cases mixed surfactants can make a more stable foam than a single surfactant, so keep your eyes open for that and be willing to change products.

I'm curious about adding d-limonene (orange oil) to the mix, as it's supposed to reduce foam, and unlike silicone, it won't leave residue that sticks around forever. I imagine it will mess with head retention if not fully dried.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've been having trouble finding the necessary ingredients individually. The PBW patent lists a whole lot of possibilities for surfactants and gelling agents but I haven't been successful finding any.

I'm ready to cave and just buy PBW for certain applications, or at least to have a comparison since I've never used it.

My experience...
Kettle: The metasilicate + percarbonate still leaves residue on the bottom of my kettle (even with modest scrubbing). 7th Gen in the mix doesn't seem to help. An acid wash does help a lot and usually leaves it sparkling immediately with some light scrubbing... I use leftover star san from brew day.

Bottles: metasilicate + percarbonate does an adequate job removing most (not all) labels but leaves spots on the outside of the bottles. I'm not sure if it's my water leaving spots or the product. Even washing with Dawn doesn't remove the spots. ?? Not sure whether chelation would help with this?
Percarbonate alone doesn't remove labels as well.
Also, some bottles have stubborn residue if they weren't rinsed after use.
For recirculated bottle cleaning, it doesn't work without a surfactant. With 7th Gen in the mix, the steel hose clamp screw rapidly corroded, so I'd rather try something else.

Carboys: percarbonate alone does a great job on my PET carboys. They don't need any scrubbing. Same goes for my other cold side equipment and glass carboys.
Percarbonate + metasilicate + 7th Gen leaves a ring.

 

[piojo]

@RPh_Guy Sounds like it's as @bplipschitz said: the metasilicate is depositing silicate residue.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Kettle: The metasilicate + percarbonate still leaves residue on the bottom of my kettle

I should clarify ... It doesn't remove the residue from my kettle.
It doesn't add residue either.

 

[soccerdad]

Residue? Do you mean beer stone?

 

[bplipschitz]

I thought metasilicate was more strongly basic than carbonate. Having just looked it up, (someone on) the internet says metasilicate is a builder which increases surfactant effectiveness by softening water, or (as a strong base) saponifying oils. What would you say its use is for in brewery cleaners?

It is more alkaline that sodium carbonate, but there is the risk of silicate scale. Softening water? Not like EDTA or phosphates.

Any suggestions about which ones? It's probably a polymer or a vegetable gum, but I have a bad feeling about using vegetable gums in cleaning products.

Thickeners don't really add much to a cleaner, unless it is intended to cling to vertical surfaces.

You can get low-foam or non-foaming surfactants, but the trick is getting one which can be bought in small quantities. If you can't get that type in particular, nonionic surfactants foam less than anionic surfactants (so don't use dish soap). Also, I've read that in some cases mixed surfactants can make a more stable foam than a single surfactant, so keep your eyes open for that and be willing to change products.

If you want a low-foaming, nonionic surfactant, use Jet-Dry or equivalent. Those products are mostly non-ionic surfactant.

I'm curious about adding d-limonene (orange oil) to the mix, as it's supposed to reduce foam, and unlike silicone, it won't leave residue that sticks around forever. I imagine it will mess with head retention if not fully dried.

I would avoid d-limonene, as it can become one more oil you have to remove from your equipment.

In the end, some residues are just going to require scrubbing at the homebrewer level, as you don't have access to the kinds of chemicals industrial CIP products are made from. Barkeeper's Friend is my friend, too.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks again. I picked up some Jet Dry and I'll report back when I see how it does. The ingredients look a lot better than the 7th Gen.

Ingredients:
http://www.rbnainfo.com/product.php?productLineId=654

Cleaning sucks.

 

[jtratcliff]

Jet Dry is a liquid, right? And the DIY PBW mix is a powder...

So you add the Jet Dry at mixing time when you add DIYPBW to hot water, I presume.

So how much JD do you add? A tsp / gallon? An eyeballed healthy squirt into whatever amount you're mixing up?
How much is too much? How much is not enough?

Or did I miss the amount post?

 

[jtratcliff]

OK... went back and re-read the post by @bplipschitz ...

1 squirt only Vasili

 

[h22lude]

If PBW doesn't really work as well as you would like, there are some things you can do. If you have no aluminum in your process, skip the metasilicate, go 70:30 carbonateercarbonate and add a squirt (just a squirt!) of either Jet Dry or unfragranced hand dish detergent (Dawn is really best). The Jet Dry will be non-foaming, the Dawn will foam -- your choice.

70:30 by weight? And when you say add a squirt, I assume you mean add it at cleaning time and not when making up a big batch.

Is there anything special I should be looking for when buying sodium carbonate and percarbonate? Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?

What do I use? My company's knock-off of PBW (ours doesn't have metasilicate in it) for most things. For really bad cleaning jobs in my home brewery, I bring out the big dogs (the potassium hydroxide-based stuff).

Does your company sell to the public?

 

[Bilsch]

If NaOh or KOh is what your looking for, there are several places that will sell these strong caustics to the general public.

https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselchemicals.php

https://hvchemical.com/product/caustic-soda-beads-1-lb/

 

[schematix]

If NaOh or KOh is what your looking for, there are several places that will sell these strong caustics to the general public.

https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselchemicals.php

https://hvchemical.com/product/caustic-soda-beads-1-lb/

Just be very careful. PBW will give you dry hands if you get it on you. This stuff will burn your flesh off.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm rather attached to my flesh.

 

[S-Met]

70:30 by weight? - percabonate and metasilicate (or tsp).

And when you say add a squirt, I assume you mean add it at cleaning time and not when making up a big batch. Yes, add liquid at mixng into solution.

Is there anything special I should be looking for when buying sodium carbonate and percarbonate? Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?

Percabonate decomposes in water to sodium carbonate. I like to mix both percabonate and sodium carbonate. As the Percarbonate mixes with h2o, it disassociates into O2 and sodium carbonate. I use both so the Percarbonate has the washong soda as an alkali detergent in the h2o. Also makes ot slightly less caustic than percabonate alone. Mix with tsp (or metasilicate) yes, ok from amazon.

 

[Bilsch]

Just be very careful. PBW will give you dry hands if you get it on you. This stuff will burn your flesh off.

Agreed. And I'm rather more worried about my eyes when working with these since the damage is permanent and almost instant.

 

[balrog]

70:30 by weight?

Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?

I just use a scoop, means I'm doing it by volume, which to the sciency background in me is all wrong but it's close enough.

I just buy off ebay and/or amazon. Sodium percarbonate and TSP/90.

 

[soccerdad]

I soaked a Better Bottle this morning after transferring to a keg. Homemade PBW with 2 parts generic oxy free and 1 part red devil tsp 90. I scoop in 6 gallons. The kreusen ring is already gone. 5 hours. So I save using homemade and save again using a small amount. I win

 

[h22lude]

70:30 by weight? - percabonate and metasilicate (or tsp).

And when you say add a squirt, I assume you mean add it at cleaning time and not when making up a big batch. Yes, add liquid at mixng into solution.

Is there anything special I should be looking for when buying sodium carbonate and percarbonate? Just the pure stuff on Amazon is ok?

Percabonate decomposes in water to sodium carbonate. I like to mix both percabonate and sodium carbonate. As the Percarbonate mixes with h2o, it disassociates into O2 and sodium carbonate. I use both so the Percarbonate has the washong soda as an alkali detergent in the h2o. Also makes ot slightly less caustic than percabonate alone. Mix with tsp (or metasilicate) yes, ok from amazon.

I just use a scoop, means I'm doing it by volume, which to the sciency background in me is all wrong but it's close enough.

I just buy off ebay and/or amazon. Sodium percarbonate and TSP/90.

From bplipschitz original post, metasilicate is only needed if cleaning aluminum. From the very first post in this thread, TSP/90 is used for the sodium metasilicate. So I'm not sure I'd need that since I have all SS. Bplipschitz recommended 70:30 carbonateercarbonate I believe.

 

[S-Met]

Metasilicate is tsp-90. I use tsp (trisodium phosphate.

Percabonate and carbonate are good cleaners, but anecdotally I do think it cleans better with the addition of T.S.P. vs percabonate alone.

 

[mikekng]

.

 

[balrog]

it is curious that I see only a period here in HBT but the email notification of your post in this thread showed:

Read through a few pages of this thread. Thanks everyone. Great info, but I have not read it all. Can someone suggest a recipe with the ingredients I have on hand? Thanks in advance. I have the following:

• sodium carbonate
• sodium percarbonate
• sodium metasilicate
• sodium laureth sulfate (a surfactant)

Anyway, I use 2:1, sodium percarbonate to TSP/90, by volume, to make homemade PBW-ish cleaner and use approx 1oz per gallon (never measuring the 1oz, I just throw some in).

 

[soccerdad]

it is curious that I see only a period here in HBT but the email notification of your post in this thread showed:
Anyway, I use 2:1, sodium percarbonate to TSP/90, by volume, to make homemade PBW-ish cleaner and use approx 1oz per gallon (never measuring the 1oz, I just throw some in).

I don't even use that much. About a scoop to a scoop and a half in a 6 gallon better bottle up to the krausen ring. It soaks for a day but really never longer than 24 hours. The generic non scent oxy that I use is some combination of sodium carbonate and sodium percarbonate. I don't know the percentages. When I mix it up I use 2 scoops generic on scent oxy to I scoop either tsp 90 or tsp (Ace hardware stopped selling the red devil tsp 90).

 

[balrog]

I almost never have to soak long. But I clean immediately after racking from carboy. Pseudo-immediately after emptying keg. Okay I try to clean kegs after they empty. Fairly soon. Kinda sorta fairly. Okay there are 3 that will have to go on the keg washer when I get off my lazy butt and finally clean them...

 

[awoitte]

Anyway, I use 2:1, sodium percarbonate to TSP/90, by volume, to make homemade PBW-ish cleaner and use approx 1oz per gallon (never measuring the 1oz, I just throw some in).

Should using pure sodium percarbonate vs. oxiclean yield better results or should one expect about the same?

 

[IslandLizard]

Should using pure sodium percarbonate vs. oxiclean yield better results or should one expect about the same?

Oxiclean, or one of the cheaper generics, is fine.
Even common washing soda (sodium carbonate) is fine.
The whole oxygen action is heavily overrated, IMO. It looks great on TV, that's about it.

Once the oxygen dissipates (from one to a few hours, depending on temp) washing soda is left over. "Oxiclean," depending on brand/source is already a mixture of sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate (washing soda).

No need to add 100% percarbonate, unless you can source it as a great deal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Should using pure sodium percarbonate vs. oxiclean yield better results or should one expect about the same?

I use 100% sodium percarbonate and buy it in bulk, along with the sodium metasilicate. I use Finish Jet Dry as the source of the surfactant, gelling agent, and chelation agent.

The percarbonate is highly underrated in my opinion since it very aggressively reacts with organic matter to break it down and the hydrogen peroxide it releases is also a strong antimicrobial. In a clear carboy you can see it dissolving the kräusen ring in a matter of seconds-minutes.

 

[balrog]

I use 100% sodium percarbonate and buy it in bulk, along with the sodium metasilicate. I use Finish Jet Dry as the source of the surfactant, gelling agent, and chelation agent.

The percarbonate is highly underrated in my opinion since it very aggressively reacts with organic matter to break it down and the hydrogen peroxide it releases is also a strong antimicrobial. In a clear carboy you can see it dissolving the kräusen ring in a matter of seconds-minutes.

I have to agree about the percatbonate. I had two kegs, kicked about same time w similar brown ale/Altbier. Left “a bit” before cleaning. Out the homemade PBW in one w some water, shook once every couple minutes, clean in 20 which I read is about the time the oxygen lasts in the percarbonate. I xfr to other keg, same shake same time, did not get it done. Added another scoop and it was done in 10 minutes. I firmly believe in the bubbles. Scrubbing or otherwise.

 

[32indian]

What would be the difference between "Red Devil TSP/90 phosphate free", and old fashion "Tri-sodium phosphate" (with phosphate) as it relates to this post?

 

[RPh_Guy]

TSP/90 is sodium metasilicate, which is what's in PBW. Either product works fine though.

 

[h22lude]

Thanks again. I picked up some Jet Dry and I'll report back when I see how it does. The ingredients look a lot better than the 7th Gen.

Ingredients:
http://www.rbnainfo.com/product.php?productLineId=654

Cleaning sucks.

Did you ever test PBW vs home made?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Did you ever test PBW vs home made?

No. I'm not sure what a good test would be since this quickly removes all visible organic matter.
Chemically it has all the same components as PBW without anything conflicting (unlike the original recipe in this thread), so I expect the performance is similar.

Like professional breweries, I follow it with an acid rinse to remove inorganic residue. (Water rinse before and after each step.)

 

[h22lude]

No. I'm not sure what a good test would be since this quickly removes all visible organic matter.
Chemically it has all the same components as PBW without anything conflicting (unlike the original recipe in this thread), so I expect the performance is similar.

Like professional breweries, I follow it with an acid rinse to remove inorganic residue. (Water rinse before and after each step.)

What are you using for home made now? I've tried to follow the thread but there are so many ingredients being said, my head is spinning. I did follow the original one but that bucket is running out. Wondering whether I should make more DIY version or just buy PBW. If you like what you are making, I may try that.

I just bought Milk Stone remover and will start doing an acid rinse as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What are you using for home made now? I've tried to follow the thread but there are so many ingredients being said, my head is spinning. I did follow the original one but that bucket is running out. Wondering whether I should make more DIY version or just buy PBW. If you like what you are making, I may try that.

I just bought Milk Stone remover and will start doing an acid rinse as well.

3-4 parts Sodium percarbonate
1 part Sodium metasilicate
1 squirt Jet Dry liquid

I buy in bulk from Amazon and mix them when needed. Jet Dry is readily available at local stores too.
It's a LOT less expensive than PBW.

There are rare instances when something will need a quick scrub with a normal sponge.

I also use BKF as needed to return stainless to it's original luster, and citric acid as needed for passivation.
In the off chance you're using any aluminum, remember that you don't want to strip the dull oxide layer.

I've tried using more simple mixtures but they are noticably less effective. YMMV.

 

[h22lude]

3-4 parts Sodium percarbonate
1 part Sodium metasilicate
1 squirt Jet Dry liquid

I buy in bulk from Amazon and mix them when needed. Jet Dry is readily available at local stores too.
It's a LOT less expensive than PBW.

There are rare instances when something will need a quick scrub with a normal sponge.

I also use BKF as needed to return stainless to it's original luster, and citric acid as needed for passivation.
In the off chance you're using any aluminum, remember that you don't want to strip the dull oxide layer.

I've tried using more simple mixtures but they are noticably less effective. YMMV.

Would you mind linking the Amazon pages for those two? I found one for percarbonate but not sure if they are reputable (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074D9F3V...olid=1F7CTSE21E1R0&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it). I also found one for metasilicate but it seems expensive. TSP/90 is about $15 for 4 pounds. This stuff was $11 for 1 pound.

Do you know how much you use per gallon of water? Or per kettle full of water? With the DIY stuff I use now, I just dump it in with no real rhyme or reason...which is probably a little wasteful.

Thanks for the help