Homemade PBW Recipe

[Morrey]

I just made a batch this weekend. I may have overpaid but I bought:

6# Oxyclean Free at Walmart 2@$7.50=$15
4# TSP/90 Ace Hardware $10.99
45oz 7th Generation Amazon Prime $5.99 75 oz box

I am not sure how much the real PBW is now but I was almost out when I made this clone. I had two fermenters that came offline at the same time so I filled one with hot water and the real deal PBW, then the other with hot water and the clone PBW.

After an overnight soak, I had no question the clone performed as well or identically as the more expensive PBW. Like I said I didn't do much cost shopping but for $32 I got a nice bucket full.

 

[Horseflesh]

When I made this a few months ago, the Red Devil TSP was actual TSP. Looks like they changed it.

 

[Morrey]

When I made this a few months ago, the Red Devil TSP was actual TSP. Looks like they changed it.

Yeah I followed the recipe carefully and it called for Red Devil TSP/90.

On the bag it said "No Phosphates" but I always thought TSP was Tri Sodium Phosphate. What the heck I followed the recipe and it worked just fine.

 

[stamandster]

Has anyone tried using just oxiclean type product and the seventh gen? Unless your adding actual sodium silicate or trisodium phosphate I don't think you will see any appreciable difference adding the TSP/90 (as the MSDS states) because its just additional carbonate and percarbonate.

 

[IslandLizard]

MSDS on Red Devil TSP/90 Heavy Duty

Sodium Percarbonate 50%
Sodium Carbonate 50%

Savorgran TSP-PF Phosphate Free

SODIUM SESQUICARBONATE 90% - 95%
SODIUM METASILICATE (or silicate, water glass) 0.1% - 5%
EDTA, TETRASODIUM 0.1% - 5%

Based on this information the percentages shown in the recipe are not accurate as none of these are 100% Sodium Metasilicate. In fact Savogran will add just a tiny bit, while the TSP/90 will just add more carbonate and percarbonate, so basically "Oxiclean".

I wonder what an actual bag of TSP/90 lists for ingredients. I'll find out soon enough as I need to buy some.

In 2013 I bought a 1 pound container of Lundmark TSP at Ace Hardware. It doesn't list ingredients but mentions Caution: Contains Sodium-Metasilicate. No other warnings. From using it, it's very strong and must be close to 100%.

I've been used that "TSP" for my homemade PBW at a 30% rate and Sun Oxiclean at 70%. A few months ago I mixed the last portion of the "TSP" into a new batch of PBW.

Time to go shopping again and check labels!

 

[PR-brewing]

Good day,

I have been having a bit of trouble with my cleaner lately. Winter brings quite hard water (around 200ppm or so or total hardness) to my neighbourhood and I have been battling residue left by this stuff.

I had great success with it with softer water, as it seems to just precipitate the minerals out of the water which would settle to the bottom. Now, I am seeing a white film on the outside of my beer bottles which comes off fairly easy with the application of acid (vinegar, star san etc) but is kind of annoying.

Has anyone had any issues with mineral deposits using this stuff with hard tap water? Any way around it?

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[Morrey]

I think water harness was addressed in this thread somewhere. Problem is filtering thru 426 posts to find it, but I think it was near the beginning.

 

[stamandster]

I wonder what an actual bag of TSP/90 lists for ingredients. I'll find out soon enough as I need to buy some.

In 2013 I bought a 1 pound container of Lundmark TSP at Ace Hardware. It doesn't list ingredients but mentions Caution: Contains Sodium-Metasilicate. No other warnings. From using it, it's very strong and must be close to 100%.

I've been used that "TSP" for my homemade PBW at a 30% rate and Sun Oxiclean at 70%. A few months ago I mixed the last portion of the "TSP" into a new batch of PBW.

Time to go shopping again and check labels!

Good news is that the Lundmark brand TSP does seem to be mostly Sodium Metasilicate

 

[jtratcliff]

Now, I am seeing a white film on the outside of my beer bottles which comes off fairly easy with the application of acid (vinegar, star san etc)

I see this too, sometimes... Even with straight oxiclean... But only if I leave it sitting more than overnight... for a few days.

If I only let stuff soak for a couple hours in hot oxi or home made PBW, then rinse, I don't get the film. If I let it sit for a day or two... film.

Caveat:. I haven't done this recipe using the 7th Generation.... I've only used 70:30 oxi to tsp. Once that runs out, I'll switch to this recipe.

 

[PR-brewing]

I had the filming problem every time with straight oxy, it got better with the mixture.

I generally use quite hot water with it and recirculate the solution with my bottle cleaning rig. I'm down to a quarter oxy scoop for several gallons now. The inside of the bottles which have constant flow seem to be fine, but the outside that is submerged in the calm solution has the film afterwards. I rinse thoroughly with hot tap water.

I've been trying to do all the cleaning before letting the solution cool, but it's still been an issue.
Would upping the 7th gen in the mix help with this?

I'm not big on soap theory, would someone mind laying out what the components do in layman's terms?

 

[IslandLizard]

Caveat:. I haven't done this recipe using the 7th Generation.... I've only used 70:30 oxi to tsp. Once that runs out, I'll switch to this recipe.

As I mentioned a few posts back, I still fail to see what 7th Generation does extra that washing soda or oxiclean doesn't do already. It's 33% table salt (NaCl) and 20% washing soda. <shrug>

 

[user 204491]

So to clarify what the TSP/90 (vs. regular TSP) and 7th Generation bring to the party...

TSP/90 is Sodium Metasilicate which is a combination of Silicon Dioxide and Sodium Oxide, and is helpful in protecting soft metals from corrosion due to exposure to strongly alkaline cleaning solutions. The silicates here also help to prevent gunk from redepositing on the clean surface once you've washed them off.

It is important to note though that the Sodium Metasilicate found in Red Devil TSP/90 is actually the pentahydrate version, which means that it has a 41% water content which helps dissolve the substance faster when exposed to water. It was the discovery of this which led to the recipe change on page 2, which reduced the amount of 7th generation from 45 oz to 40 oz to match the Metasilicate to Surfactant ratio of actual PBW.

Please note, I'm not sure where people are getting the info that TSP/90 is just Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Carbonate. Both the MSDS and TDS that I can find call out "Sodium Metasilicate, Pentahydrate."

The 7th generation adds two things found in PBW that you don't get from Oxi-Clean or TSP/90 - chelating agents & surfactants.

Citric Acid & Sodium Polyaspertate are chelating agents. Chelating agents bind with metal ions preventing them from reacting with other elements. This is why PBW doesn&#8217;t cause scale on your equipment, even with hard water.

Lastly it contains Sodium Sulfate and PPG-10-Laureth-7 which are both surfactants. Surfactants, also referred to as wetting agents help to increase the efficiency of other cleaning agents by helping to breakdown fats and proteins. They can break down the interface between water and dirt/oils, making them more soluble and subsequently help to hold them in suspension, making them easier to rinse away.

Hope that's helpful!

 

[jtratcliff]

Please note, I'm not sure where people are getting the info that TSP/90 is just Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Carbonate. Both the MSDS and TDS that I can find call out "Sodium Metasilicate, Pentahydrate."

Oxiclean is Sodium Percarbonate & Sodium Carbonate... MSDS

7th Gen is mostly salt (NaCl), Sodium Sulfate, Sodium Carbonate, and Citric Acid... with a few % of the other stuff mentioned...MSDS

 

[user 204491]

Oxiclean is Sodium Percarbonate & Sodium Carbonate... MSDS

7th Gen is mostly salt (NaCl), Sodium Sulfate, Sodium Carbonate, and Citric Acid... with a few % of the other stuff mentioned...MSDS

That it totally correct; however, a few pages back it seems some folks were saying TSP/90 is Sodium Percarbonate & Sodium Carbonate which I do not believe is correct (unless they've updated the product but not yet the MSDS or TDS).

 

[jtratcliff]

folks were saying TSP/90 is Sodium Percarbonate & Sodium Carbonate which I do not believe is correct (unless they've updated the product but not yet the MSDS or TDS).

No, I think you're right... TSP/90 is 100% sodium metasilicate.... I was just adding the other 2 MSDS sheets so folks could see for themselves.

Most likely a bit of ingredient confusion going on with TSP/90 & Oxiclean

 

[stamandster]

MSDS TSP/90 Heavy Duty - Old
https://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=18007021

New Resealable Bag
https://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=18007059&query=Red+devil&searchas=TblBrands

So, I was referencing this before which is likely why I was off
https://www.menards.com/msds/101152_001.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiQp6b3rvDSAhUo6YMKHb-VBFMQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGJKGwDExFannVU7Sx0p5uDbpGCFQ

 

[BrunDog]

My bag of TSP/90. (Note the '/90' is the non phosphate version. They are just capitalizing on the TSP name because it is a popular cleaner.

Front:
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1490404296.125773.jpg

Back:
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1490404318.113352.jpg

 

[IslandLizard]

MSDS TSP/90 Heavy Duty - Old
https://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=18007021

New Resealable Bag
https://householdproducts.nlm.nih.g...d=18007059&query=Red+devil&searchas=TblBrands

So, I was referencing this before which is likely why I was off
https://www.menards.com/msds/101152...ggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGJKGwDExFannVU7Sx0p5uDbpGCFQ

Glad that's sorted. Phew!

BTW, that MSDS from Menards was from 2001. Looks like it was the wrong info or someone C&P-ed the wrong info.

 

[shemp]

So to clarify what the TSP/90 (vs. regular TSP)

I didnt see this part clarified. I have actual TSP. Same ratio?

Thx

 

[BrunDog]

People have used it but it's not even related. I would think you should source the /90 and use that.

 

[phug]

I use the normal tsp at the same ratios listed for the tsp 90. It works great. brun dog, tsp/90 seems to be just about impossible to source in Canada as TSP was never phased out here

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I use the normal tsp at the same ratios listed for the tsp 90. It works great. brun dog, tsp/90 seems to be just about impossible to source in Canada as TSP was never phased out here

Phosphates rule!....

 

[lewandowski46]

Just cleaned and refurbed 4 corny kegs that were pretty dirty. 30-60 minutes each on the keg washer with half a scoop of the TSP'd PBW recipe in 3 gal of hot water, and they came out pretty clean. 1 required a scrub down with BKF, but the rest are sparkly. Replaced all gaskets, lubed it up, pressurized with a couple cups of star-san in each. All holding pressure after several days. Chalk up a win for the home team.

 

[Bilsch]

I've made and used it both ways and it's my feeling that the metasilicate version works better than the TSP.

 

[phug]

I've made and used it both ways and it's my feeling that the metasilicate version works better than the TSP.

If you'll ship me some tsp/90 I'd be happy to try to duplicate and corroborate your results

 

[Jwin]

If you'll ship me some tsp/90 I'd be happy to try to duplicate and corroborate your results

Send about 5 grams to Phugs office, no return address. What could happen?

 

[phug]

Send about 5 grams to Phugs office, no return address. What could happen?

No worries, I work from home.

 

[BrunDog]

I use the normal tsp at the same ratios listed for the tsp 90. It works great. brun dog, tsp/90 seems to be just about impossible to source in Canada as TSP was never phased out here

No doubt legit tri-sodium-phosphate cleans stuff. I don't know how it works in brewery equipment, but many have sworn, like you, it works a treat. I can't get it so I can't offer any direct comparison.

Bottom line: it's good to have access to strong cleaners for our cleaning needs!

 

[h22lude]

How much of this would I use per gallon of water?

Edit: Looks like about 1oz per gallon which I believe is the same for PBW.

 

[jtratcliff]

How much of this would I use per gallon of water?

Edit: Looks like about 1oz per gallon which I believe is the same for PBW.

Yeah, it's meant to be a 1-to-1 replacement for PBW using (relatively)cheaper and easily source-able household cleaning products.