Homemade PBW Recipe

[balrog]

When I wrote what you quoted I was up to speed on them being the same. I had forgotten prior to that though and had been looking up sodium metasilicate but hadn't seen any references to TSP90 when searching on Google. I was thinking out loud a bit until Post 972. As far as the sodium metasilicate, I was wondering what it does as a chemical in the real PBW. Somewhere in the thread it is posted that sodium metasilicate is a base and removes fatty acids but I don't know enough about chemistry to understand why that might be important for a powdered brewery wash. I've always had more of an affinitiy for acid than bases. There's only a small percentage (1-3%) of sodium metasilicate in the SDS for the PBW liquid and the PBW powder at the five star links. I just don't know what it's for in the real PBW formula.

The Sunnyside TSP I linked to is actual Trisodium Phosphate, just another inexpensive source. It's also very basic so perhaps that's the important chemical property for the inclusion of the sodium metasilicate?

AFAIK from personal experience, using only the sodium percarbonate in warm water will do some cleaning, fairly good. This occurred on the occasion of my being out of TSP/90. The kegs needed a little scrubbing help afterwards for the krausen ring. With the addition of the degreasing sodium metasilicate with the sodium percarbonate, I have never ever had to scrub a keg.

 

[Deadalus]

I did some searching too and it appears there's fragrance in those 30 pound boxes. I looked at several spots and your recent Home Depot and they all appear to be the same cardboard box with the black label.

Let me know if you find something different. It shouldn't be this hard.

I'd hate to irritate my babies bottom with fragrance.

Thanks for your posts!

YW. Yeah, annoying that Google page says fragrance free but every link led to that box like you say except perhaps the Staples page. But I don't have one local to bring it back or pick up from.

AFAIK, PBW is, or used to be, ~70% Sodium PerCarbonate (Oxygen component in Oxiclean) and ~30% Sodium MetaSilicate (TSP/90) with a little bit of EDTA added.

Oxiclean itself is usually a mixture of Sodium PerCarbonate and Sodium Carbonate (washing soda). The better "brands" tend to have a larger PerCarbonate percentage, but I've never seen it much higher than 50%.

Once the PerCarbonate gives up its loosely bound oxygen it becomes washing soda.

Washing soda can be bought in 4-20 pound boxes (Walmart, grocery stores, etc.). It's quite cheap and the major component in laundry powders.

So a few posts I linked to the SDS pages for multiple 5 star products. The PBW powder which adds low suds after the name has a lower % than 70. Also there's a liquid version, similar % as low suds. I don't know if the dry low suds is a different product than regular offering at the LHBS.

AFAIK from personal experience, using only the sodium percarbonate in warm water will do some cleaning, fairly good. This occurred on the occasion of my being out of TSP/90. The kegs needed a little scrubbing help afterwards for the krausen ring. With the addition of the degreasing sodium metasilicate with the sodium percarbonate, I have never ever had to scrub a keg.

For keg and carboy washing I use my homemade version, 70/30, All free and clear 70% and 30% TSP90 or TSP as I mentioned I switched by accident. I have a DIY carboy/keg washer. I have to use less than suggested for both kegs carboys because it foams quite a bit and traps suds when cleaning carboys. Krusty krausen rings sometimes leave a little buildup but it's mostly the trapped suds interfering in my opinion. Kegs do okay. I think I will try them separate just to see which causes the foaming. I end up soaking the carboys a second time and brushing or just not using the keg washer at all because I am worried of missing just a little something and getting an infection.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

It appears everyone has their own recipe that works well for their needs and saves them money. I'm going to stick with PBW and the other cleaners I use.

I appreciate the ideas everyone has shared. For now I'm going to file the recipes away for future reference.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[balrog]

which causes the foaming.

That's interesting. I've never had foam, but I just use the two ingredients, percarb and metasilicate.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

It's been awhile since any activity on this subject. For what it's worth Amazon has ten bucks off a purchase if three tubs of oxiclean, fragrance free, versatile. It was listed on Homebrew finds and sure enough it was on Amazon. That was today, 11/14.

 

[Miraculix]

What's the latest one here? I'm using oxyclean from a German company (Heitmann - Reine Sauerstoffbleiche) but I have residue afterwards. Like a white powder after drying. The powder can only be solved in an acidic solution and I'm a bit tired of the vinegar rinse after the soaking.

My guess is, that it has something to do with minerals in the water that fall out of solution.

What do you guys think would be the best fix for this? I'm trying to avoid EDTA, as it's a big problem in the water later on. Not biodegradable and it continues doing it's thing further down the line in the water bodies it gets into.

Does the additional detergent do the trick?

Edit: looks like trisodium phosphate should do it? That would be two ingredients, this one plus sodium percarbonate. Both can be sourced fairly cheaply online here in Germany.

Any comments on this idea,?

 

[Broothru]

I use Oxi Scent-Free frequently for pre-soak stubborn gunk, and add a healthy squeeze of 7th Generation (plant based) detergent, either liquid or dry granules, which is a strong surfactant that lifts and suspends the solids for a simple cleaning rinse. I then follow up with a small amount of PBW, if necessary, and then sanitize with Star San.

Oxi + TSP works well for getting rid of the gunk, but adding a surfactant detergent reduces residue from the percarbonates.

 

[redrocker652002]

I used Oxiclean in my keg and bucket washer and man did it foam up. Is there a better way? The Oxiclean is so much less expensive, but I really like how the washer get all the insides of the keg and bucket.

Also, if someone could simplify the recipe I would appreciate it. I looked at the charts and stuff and man I was confused. Simple minded I guess. LOL. Anyway, thanks for the info and this thread. Lot's of good stuff here.

 

[Miraculix]

I used Oxiclean in my keg and bucket washer and man did it foam up. Is there a better way? The Oxiclean is so much less expensive, but I really like how the washer get all the insides of the keg and bucket.

Also, if someone could simplify the recipe I would appreciate it. I looked at the charts and stuff and man I was confused. Simple minded I guess. LOL. Anyway, thanks for the info and this thread. Lot's of good stuff here.

The original is 70% sodium percarbonate, 30% sodium triphosphate plus a bit of EDTA. The sodium triphosphate must be substituted in some countries but there are alternatives listed above.

Another version skips the EDTA and adds some detergent.

 

[balrog]

I use the 2:1 sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate, sourced via ebay or amazon, but prices in the last 3 years have exploded
I have soft water, and do not have residue

 

[Miraculix]

I use Oxi Scent-Free frequently for pre-soak stubborn gunk, and add a healthy squeeze of 7th Generation (plant based) detergent, either liquid or dry granules, which is a strong surfactant that lifts and suspends the solids for a simple cleaning rinse. I then follow up with a small amount of PBW, if necessary, and then sanitize with Star San.

Oxi + TSP works well for getting rid of the gunk, but adding a surfactant detergent reduces residue from the percarbonates.

I just ordered the sodium percarbonate and the sodium triphosphate. 2 kg and 1 kg. I will give it a try and if this also results in residue, then I will try adding detergent or EDTA.

I am a bit "afraid" of detergent as it is, like soap, a terrible head killer. I actually do not want stuff like that in my cleaning solution. That was basically the main reason I switched to these Oxiclean based cleaners.

 

[DuncB]

I follow the advice of @day_trippr ( I think) that the white residue comes off easily if you rinse in water as warm or warmer than your PBW.
I'm still using the edta, sodium percab and sod metasilicate and no problems.

 

[MaxStout]

I use the 2:1 sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate, sourced via ebay or amazon, but prices in the last 3 years have exploded
I have soft water, and do not have residue

I used to make PBW clone, but with those high prices of ingredients today, there's just not enough savings versus buying 4 lb. refills of the real thing for $20 from Ritebrew.

 

[simbabrew]

This costs more than Oxiclean, but I have been using it with great results for a few years now:

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Hom...anitizers-Gloves/Brewers-Edge-Oxygen-Cleanser

 

[Miraculix]

I follow the advice of @day_trippr ( I think) that the white residue comes off easily if you rinse in water as warm or warmer than your PBW.
I'm still using the edta, sodium percab and sod metasilicate and no problems.

Tried it, doesn't work for me unfortunately.

 

[Miraculix]

I used to make PBW clone, but with those high prices of ingredients today, there's just not enough savings versus buying 4 lb. refills of the real thing for $20 from Ritebrew.

In Germany, PBW is massively expensive and I don't know of a reasonably priced local alternative. So for me, it's great to have the option to make it myself.

 

[InspectorJon]

The original is 70% sodium percarbonate, 30% sodium triphosphate plus a bit of EDTA. The sodium triphosphate must be substituted in some countries but there are alternatives listed above.

Have I misunderstood or is this in error? I thought it was Trisodium Phosphate. I have no chemistry background but those sound different to me.

 

[DuncB]

PBW in NZ expensive now, 16 US dollar equivalent per pound.
Homemade a lot cheaper.
I have been interested in some stuff on the malt miller channel called enzyclean that looks good. But unavailable to me here.

 

[Miraculix]

Have I misunderstood or is this in error? I thought it was Trisodium Phosphate. I have no chemistry background but those sound different to me.

You are correct, they are different. But to make things even more complicated, both are used in cleaning agents. I have no idea which one is the better one, I just found that sodium triphosphate is often used in detergents.

I have no idea if I now ordered the right stuff or not .

Thanks for the information!

 

[Cameronl]

I used to make PBW clone, but with those high prices of ingredients today, there's just not enough savings versus buying 4 lb. refills of the real thing for $20 from Ritebrew.

Holy cow, you're right! That's a great deal.
I've been trying to source ingredients for the homemade stuff (TSP Substitute with Sodium Metasilicate has become tough to find), and the best I can come up with (which involves too much driving around and I'm not even calculating the cost of my time and gas) is only about a buck cheaper per pound (and I'd have to make 15 pounds of it). I'll be placing and order with Ritebrew soon.

 

[redrocker652002]

Holy cow, you're right! That's a great deal.
I've been trying to source ingredients for the homemade stuff (TSP Substitute with Sodium Metasilicate has become tough to find), and the best I can come up with (which involves too much driving around and I'm not even calculating the cost of my time and gas) is only about a buck cheaper per pound (and I'd have to make 15 pounds of it). I'll be placing and order with Ritebrew soon.

I found the same thing. By the time I add up everything and do the legwork, I am not saving that much. Just a note, the Ritebrew stuff comes in a plastic bag, so hopefully you have a container to put it in. Just was reading the fine print and saw that. Still a fantastic deal no doubt.

 

[Cameronl]

I found the same thing. By the time I add up everything and do the legwork, I am not saving that much. Just a note, the Ritebrew stuff comes in a plastic bag, so hopefully you have a container to put it in. Just was reading the fine print and saw that. Still a fantastic deal no doubt.

The bakery at my supermarket was happy to hand me half a dozen 5 and 2 gallon buckets (with lids) that had contained frosting. I just had to clean them.

 

[MaxStout]

Check the shipping costs of the Ritebrew offering against Amazon. A couple years ago I got 8 lbs PBW in the big plastic jar for around $45 and free shipping. Now I have the nifty jar to refill.

At the time of this writing, the Amazon cost is $53. ($6.63/lb.) I keep seeing the "buy it again" thing on Amazon, and it's been at $53 for some time.

Still, the 8 lb jar from Amazon with free shipping might be about even with two 4 lb. refill bags from Ritebrew once you add shipping.

OTOH, if you're already ordering other stuff from Ritebrew, adding the PBW may not bump up the shipping very much. Do the math and see.

Then there's the 50 lb bucket for $270 ($5.40/lb.), which might be worth considering if you split it up in a group buy.

 

[mac_1103]

Still, the 8 lb jar from Amazon with free shipping might be about even with two 4 lb. refill bags from Ritebrew once you add shipping.

RiteBrew's model seems to be pretty close to charging actual shipping costs with tiered discounts for larger orders. So it's going to depend on where you live and whether you're buying other stuff at the same time. Right now, I'd save about $4 ordering two bags from RiteBrew vs one container from Amazon. Ritebrew would be about a buck more expensive if I lived in Tucson.

 

[Deadalus]

I just bought 5 of the All Free and Clear (52 oz) for $5.99 each at Big Lots. I had some TSP left over but also ordered six pounds of Sunnyside TSP from Home Depot for $16.01 shipped free. Works out to be $2.09/lb using a 70% oxi to 30% TSP mix.

 

[DuncB]

Just rechecked my figures and even adding in the EDTA it's costing me US $ 1.66 a pound. So basically a tenth of the price of the shop bought PBW. I'll keep mixing.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I use the OXYFree chlorine free variety to kill ants. A pinch on some syrup placed in a water bottle cap and carefully balanced on the mound. All ants gone in 3 days total.

 

[DuncB]

I use the OXYFree chlorine free variety to kill ants. A pinch on some syrup placed in a water bottle cap and carefully balanced on the mound. All ants gone in 3 days total.

Good tip and great skill for the ants to be able to balance a bottle top!

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Good tip and great skill for the ants to be able to balance a bottle top!

I told then it was an IPA an don spill it! -eheh.

 

[Broothru]

I told then it was an IPA a don spill it! -eheh.

But then they saw it was a hazy and wouldn’t touch it…