Homebrewing Service?

[Veinman]

I think you have muddied the water by adding in charging for services you are providing.

I am going to contradict what a lot of people are saying and say you absolutely CAN sell wort IN MOST STATES. A popular product up here in Canada are "Brewhouse Kits" (which I know are available in many states as well). The Brewhouse Kits are a giant bag of wort, you add 8L of water and pitch the yeast. The seller is selling wort with the marketing and clear intention that YOU will make it into beer however its not taxed or regulated as beer because it's not beer. Now if you sell him wort then volunteer to add yeast, watch the fermentation etc. etc. you probably transformed this into selling beer and are now illegal.

SO If you were to produce wort and sell it to a friend who took it home and pitched yeast, fermented and bottled I think you're in the clear.
IF however you "sold" it to him he pitched the yeast but kept it at your place and you "helped" bottle you've created a much stickier situation, part of the cost is now going to your labour which is producing beer.

As most of said I wouldn't make it into a business without a clear explanation and OK from legal counsel and the powers that be in your state.

 

[Revvy]

I am going to contradict what a lot of people are saying and say you absolutely CAN sell wort IN MOST STATES. A popular product up here in Canada are "Brewhouse Kits" (which I know are available in many states as well). The Brewhouse Kits are a giant bag of wort, you add 8L of water and pitch the yeast. The seller is selling wort with the marketing and clear intention that YOU will make it into beer however its not taxed or regulated as beer because it's not beer. Now if you sell him wort then volunteer to add yeast, watch the fermentation etc. etc. you probably transformed this into selling beer and are now illegal.

SO If you were to produce wort and sell it to a friend who took it home and pitched yeast, fermented and bottled I think you're in the clear.

Gee, really?
You don't think that they companies that make brewhouse kits aren't bound by all manner of tax, and health and safety laws, like any food purveyor is? You don't think they have to produce it in regularly inspected facilities, and that they aren't licensed businesses, who pay taxes and license fees regularly?

It's not some guy in his basement filling 2 liter pepsi bottles with wort and taping yeast on the top and sticking a label on it. He's bound by all matter of legalities even beyond the alcohol production aspect, if it's being produced for human consumption and money is changing hands then there are LAWS to be followed.

Just like I can't get away with making tamales in by kitchen and walking down the street selling them...it's only going to be so long before the government puts a stop to it, or demands that I have regularly inspected kitchen, get business licenses, and pay taxes.

 

[maxamuus]

Wasn't it legalized in Utah JUST this very year?

Nope, been a year and some months. Unless your pasting from a old copy.

 

[user 30639]

Gotta love the armchair lawyers. Revvy's posts are spot on. Anyone who thinks they're being clever and has found a loophole should ask themselves two things.

1: If I'm so clever and have found a loophole, how come no one else is doing it?

2: Does my clever idea make sure the appropriate taxes and whatnot are paid?

Because really, #2 is the most important thing. If I may give a little example from my practice as a defense lawyer. I had a potential client call me a while back wanting to fight a traffic ticket. It was a city that I don't practice in, but the person asked me if I had a few minutes to answer a few questions. This person had been doing a lot of his own legal research and had a whole list of bat**** crazy ideas about how speeding tickets are unconstitutional and all sorts of other crap that will never stand up in court. Whenever I tried to tell the caller why they were wrong, they would just move on to another and equally wrong point.

Finally, to end the conversation, I asked my caller, "Even if everything you told me is 100% gospel truth, where are you going to find a judge that is going to rule in your favor and end the flow of traffic ticket money to their city?" That actually got him to be quiet for a minute and think about it.

Realistically, unless you basically turned your homebrew set up into an unlicensed brewery, the chances of getting caught are pretty slim. But if you do, do you really want to be explaining to the IRS and TTB why they haven't been getting their cut?

 

[Yooper]

If someone wants your beer, and you are willing to make it for them...Great.

Hand them the list of what you need, Send them down to the local homebrew

You could give your client a 5 gallon sample of your homebrew.

If your client was inclined to tip the brewer, i do believe that would be legal. Just sayin.

Unfortunately, even that may be technically illegal. In VA, it is illegal to GIVE AWAY more than a six-pack to one person in one year. In NE, homebrew must be "made solely for the use of the maker and his or her family and guests."

Info about each state here: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes

As was mentioned, in some states it's even illegal to take homebrew out of your home. You can't take it even to a campground with your tent because you're out of your "home". In some states, you can't even give it away to friends. In some states, you can give away one six pack per person per year as a gift. In some states, you can give away alot, as long as you don't go over your yearly allowed amount- in most states that's 200 gallons per year per household.

In some states, homebrewing is still illegal.

It's understandable to want to circumvent the rules, but keep in mind that a forum like this cannot and will not condone doing anything illegal.

Selling/bartering/donating/accepting donations/etc for homebrew is usually illegal.

 

[curlyfat]

Gee, really?
Just like I can't get away with making tamales in by kitchen and walking down the street selling them...it's only going to be so long before the government puts a stop to it, or demands that I have regularly inspected kitchen, get business licenses, and pay taxes.

Crap, crap, crap. I'm about to contradict revvy. Forgive me, sir.

First of all, trying to accomplish this with something obviously intended to become alcoholic is retarded and stupid (sorry I'm not PC).

However, old ladies do this a lot around here. It's usually burritos instead of tamales, but they go to work sites and sell their food out of Coleman coolers in the back of their cars. I know for a fact that the ones I'm aware of pay no tax (not even sales tax!), because they are viewed as little old ladies selling their food (at a notable profit, no less). I felt compelled to point that out.

I felt the need to say that. BUT! I know that ANY law enforcement officer would look much more suspicion and rigor at someone selling something in the alcohol realm. Even us homebrewers and wine makers are viewed in the same light as "Moonshiners" by much of the population, and every single legal scrutiny possible would be projected upon us, so don't bother selling your "wort", or "yeast samples", or bottles with "free beer", lest you invoke the full wrath of your over-religious population!

If you want to sell your beer, look into your LOCAL laws involving microbrewing. In some states, it's a small fee, an inspection from TBB and no minimum. I'm working on it here, but have to deal with a 100 bbl minimum. Look into it. If it's not feasible, give your buddy beer. And let him buy you dinner tomorrow. IF that's all legal in your local.

 

[munklunk]

Totally. Here in Chicago, the Tamale Guy goes around to different bars throughout the night and sells Tamales out of a cooler. And crap, they're good.

Still, what I got from this thread is this, "Don't sell your homebrew. It's illegal. Also, don't try to rationalize why it SHOULD be legal. Cause Revvy ain't having none of your sh*t."

 

[Revvy]

C
However, old ladies do this a lot around here. It's usually burritos instead of tamales, but they go to work sites and sell their food out of Coleman coolers in the back of their cars. I know for a fact that the ones I'm aware of pay no tax (not even sales tax!), because they are viewed as little old ladies selling their food (at a notable profit, no less). I felt compelled to point that out.

But they are not legal, and if someone had a bug up their assess to press the issue, and want to get rid of them, the fact that they were unlicensed, un-inspectied and untaxed, would be the lynchpin to take them down. Especially if someone got sick.

Just because their doing it in the underground economy also doesn't meant that if I started to do it more mainstream, I wouldn't be busted...some folks are better a getting away with stuff than others...But my analogy still stands.

They've been trying to do that with taco carts in LA for quite some time, because the resteraunt owners are complaining. But most of those are licensed and inspected, so that doesn't always work.

But it doesn't matter, change the food metaphor to something else if it makes you happy then, baking cookies for chrissakes, the point is to conduct business where food is concerned there is all manner of state, local and even federal laws that have to be followed in order to do it legitimately. And if it's not legit, then it's illegal,

The Canadian wort guy is a fool is he thinks that business isn't regulated. Was all that I was saying.

 

[Veinman]

I should have added in my post that you needed to conform to health and safety laws I figured that was a given, clearly it wasn't. Obviously Revvy is right your state would likely classify this as food and you'd need to pass health inspections etc. And of course you'd have to pay business tax that is a given every state has their own business tax laws.

However the debate was not about that, it was about the legality of selling homebrew in different stages of production. I was simply making the argument that selling pre-made yet unfermented wort would not violate the law with regards to selling alcohol and giving a similar yet commercial example of a company doing it.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

I don't think there is anything wrong with these conversations. They are fun.

If you let him pitch the yeast then I can't see anything in the law that would make it illegal. If it were, then homebrew supply shops would be breaking the law in selling you extract and the other supplies. Obviously they aren't. If YOU pitch the yeast then you are potentially opening yourself up to prosecution. It could still be arguable but you would have to be prepared to put up a defense.

 

[user 19629]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's understandable to want to circumvent the rules, but keep in mind that a forum like this cannot and will not condone doing anything illegal.

Selling/bartering/donating/accepting donations/etc for homebrew is usually illegal.

Then why is this allowed?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f38/10-10-10-bgs-swap-sign-up-details-193541/
Just asking.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

Another business idea that might be kind of fun, and wouldn't break any laws, would to become some sort of homebrew tutor. Instead of just doing the work for the customer, actually TEACH the customer how to brew. Instruct him what to buy, he could of course buy the supplies from you, and then give a class right there in his house. Walk him through the steps and explain why we do each thing at each step. The customer would of course pitch his own yeast but he would be doing most of the hands on work anyway.

Not only does this follow the letter of the law, but is in keeping with the spirit of the law as well. You are being paid for you teaching time and not for your brew. I think this would be a valuable service and would bring more people into the homebrew community in a responsible way. I know it isn't exactly what the OP was asking about, but it is sort of related. Something for you enterprising folk to think about.

 

[Homercidal]

What it comes down to in the case of the OP, is that it is illegal to SELL homebrew in any form, including barter. If this was just a once in a while sort of thing, between friends, I can see how it would be easy to have them pitch the yeast and separate any form of payment from the act. I mean, super easy. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

However, it's still illegal.

Doing this in a way that would resemble a retail business, such as advertising, doing it at the brewer's house, etc., would be an open invitation to be caught and prosecuted. It's just asking for trouble that nobody here wants.

That's why I "suggest" brewing at their place, allowing them to buy the ingredients, having them pitch the yeast, and you are only there to assist and explain. This is not something you would do except for friends. The other part of the deal could be handled completely separately.

This is not something I would even consider, myself. If my friends want to learn to homebrew I'd only be too happy to help them out. They can watch while I brew at my house and I'd give them a couple of 6-packs to try it when it's done. The goal would be to learn them so they can do it on their own. Even with this method there are some states which would frown on this, since the beer doesn't remain at my house, or I'm giving it away as a gift.

I'm not going to argue why it's illegal to sell homebrew, or try to justify the action. I'm just stating what the law says.

It's my OPINION that you should be able to work something out with your friends, within the context of your local laws. But ANYTHING resembling a business is going to be illegal in any state.

 

[Homercidal]

Another business idea that might be kind of fun, and wouldn't break any laws, would to become some sort of homebrew tutor. Instead of just doing the work for the customer, actually TEACH the customer how to brew. Instruct him what to buy, he could of course buy the supplies from you, and then give a class right there in his house. Walk him through the steps and explain why we do each thing at each step. The customer would of course pitch his own yeast but he would be doing most of the hands on work anyway.

Not only does this follow the letter of the law, but is in keeping with the spirit of the law as well. You are being paid for you teaching time and not for your brew. I think this would be a valuable service and would bring more people into the homebrew community in a responsible way. I know it isn't exactly what the OP was asking about, but it is sort of related. Something for you enterprising folk to think about.

+1 with the addendum that you would need to do this at THEIR house to remain legal (in some states).

 

[jgln]

Is brewing all that difficult? I mean sure, you can get pretty involved in styles and honing your skills over time but to need to teach someone how to brew a beer at home is unnecessary with all the instruction available. Then again, some people like to have some one show them. But like someone mentioned in some other thread about homebrewers, we are pretty much a group of people who like to do it ourselves.

 

[Valcarde]

I don't think there is anything wrong with these conversations. They are fun.

If you let him pitch the yeast then I can't see anything in the law that would make it illegal. If it were, then homebrew supply shops would be breaking the law in selling you extract and the other supplies. Obviously they aren't. If YOU pitch the yeast then you are potentially opening yourself up to prosecution. It could still be arguable but you would have to be prepared to put up a defense.

Except these homebrew shops have all the license and taxation information, as well as being registered businesses, and are allowed by law to sell those products by virtue of the red tape they went through. Joe Normal in his basement is not.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

Except these homebrew shops have all the license and taxation information, as well as being registered businesses, and are allowed by law to sell those products by virtue of the red tape they went through. Joe Normal in his basement is not.

Sure, but unlike bars and breweries there is nothing special about their licensing. It is just your run of the mill business licensing, likely no different from what you would have to own a small grocery store, because they are NOT selling alcohol. It goes without saying that if you went into business doing ANYTHING you are going to have to fill out some government paperwork to make sure they get their taxes. But for most types of businesses it isn't that complicated.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

Is brewing all that difficult? I mean sure, you can get pretty involved in styles and honing your skills over time but to need to teach someone how to brew a beer at home is unnecessary with all the instruction available. Then again, some people like to have some one show them. But like someone mentioned in some other thread about homebrewers, we are pretty much a group of people who like to do it ourselves.

Well, the people posting here wouldn't be making up the customer base because we are the types who know how to find the information we need. But not everyone spends time browsing message boards pertaining to their hobbies. I'm not saying you would get rich off it though.

 

[vandeg]

I'm not sure about the service but if you really wanted to, you could possibly sell the buckets with wort. As for what permits and all, I would suspect you wouldn't need a brewers license but you could ask the people that make the Big and Easy kits.

 

[Brewing Clamper]

There was a guy on craigslist a while back that was charging for something similar here in the SF Bay Area. He would bring his equipment to your house, "teach" you to brew, leave the fermenting wort with you then come back to help you bottle. As I recall he was asking a ridiculous amount of money for it and I only saw the ad once.... dunno if it's kosher or not though...

 

[febbrewro]

Remember homebrewing wasn't re-legalized after the Volstead act was repealed in 1933, it wasn't legalized until 1978, and it took a lot of work in those 45 years to get it to happen....and despite it's federal legalization, it is STILL on a State by State basis.

Wasn't it legalized in Utah JUST this very year?

I was having a conversation with my girlfriend, who is a current law student, about the medical marijuana laws. Even though the state (MI in this example) legalized medical marijuana, the green stuff is still illegal on a federal level. This means that federal agents can arrest you for possessing it even if you have a state medical marijuana license.

Now, with what Revvy just said, homebrewing is legal on the federal level, but certain states have made it illegal. This seams backwards to me. The states can't trump federal marijuana laws, but they can override homebrewing laws?

I'd love some of our more legally-inclined members to chime in on this one

 

[mrkstel]

It wasn't "Legalized" by the federal government. They just gave the states the right to regulate it however they see fit.

 

[Valcarde]

Sure, but unlike bars and breweries there is nothing special about their licensing. It is just your run of the mill business licensing, likely no different from what you would have to own a small grocery store, because they are NOT selling alcohol. It goes without saying that if you went into business doing ANYTHING you are going to have to fill out some government paperwork to make sure they get their taxes. But for most types of businesses it isn't that complicated.

If there are any on-premises brewing stores in your area, go to them and ask what kind of licensing they need to operate. Even if they let the user pitch the yeast, I wager they need a license to even allow that on the premises.

At least in Ontario, brew-on-premises locations do need a special license, last I checked. It may be different in your area.

Either way, the worst thing to do when dealing with something with the law is to make assumptions. It's always best to verify with a local lawyer or make an anonymous call for information at the local city hall for regulations such as this. Online forums are not the best places to ask for legal advice, just due to the large amount of armchair lawyers.

 

[curlyfat]

But they are not legal, and if someone had a bug up their assess to press the issue, and want to get rid of them, the fact that they were unlicensed, un-inspectied and untaxed, would be the lynchpin to take them down. Especially if someone got sick.

Just because their doing it in the underground economy also doesn't meant that if I started to do it more mainstream, I wouldn't be busted...some folks are better a getting away with stuff than others...But my analogy still stands.

They've been trying to do that with taco carts in LA for quite some time, because the resteraunt owners are complaining. But most of those are licensed and inspected, so that doesn't always work.

But it doesn't matter, change the food metaphor to something else if it makes you happy then, baking cookies for chrissakes, the point is to conduct business where food is concerned there is all manner of state, local and even federal laws that have to be followed in order to do it legitimately. And if it's not legit, then it's illegal,

The Canadian wort guy is a fool is he thinks that business isn't regulated. Was all that I was saying.

My point was that they get away with it because they're viewed as "harmless". No doubt, one food sickness incident and they'd be gone. Unfortunately, our "hobby" is often viewed as hillbilly moonshine and any suspicion would be instantly acted upon. Our local homebrew competition was visited by a sheriff that seemed disappointed that nothing nefarious was happening.

We are on the same page in the end, sir.

 

[Revvy]

My point was that they get away with it because they're viewed as "harmless". No doubt, one food sickness incident and they'd be gone. Unfortunately, our "hobby" is often viewed as hillbilly moonshine and any suspicion would be instantly acted upon. Our local homebrew competition was visited by a sheriff that seemed disappointed that nothing nefarious was happening.

We are on the same page in the end, sir.

What it this guy?

He's the Sheriff that busted the Alabama Homebrewer.

 

[hal2814]

Is brewing all that difficult? I mean sure, you can get pretty involved in styles and honing your skills over time but to need to teach someone how to brew a beer at home is unnecessary with all the instruction available. Then again, some people like to have some one show them. But like someone mentioned in some other thread about homebrewers, we are pretty much a group of people who like to do it ourselves.

In the OP's question this is especially true. Given the choice of brewing a Coors Light clone or fermenting it, the brewing step is easier by a mile.

 

[Homercidal]

What it this guy?

He's the Sheriff that busted the Alabama Homebrewer.

Damn! Look at all that distillery equipment! Surely someone will go blind making spirits at home!

That guy still looks as much like as ****** as the first time I saw him.

Is he the same guy that said, "Our beer drink pretty good!" or something like that?

 

[jgln]

In the OP's question this is especially true. Given the choice of brewing a Coors Light clone or fermenting it, the brewing step is easier by a mile.

Not exactly sure what that means, sorry. I guess the point I was trying to make is I can't see it being a very profitable business when it is pretty easy to buy a kit and read the directions and go from there as you like. It makes we wonder how profitable these wine making places are. My guess is it is people who think making wine at home is "common" and making it at a winery or whatever "sophisticated". I could be very wrong though.

 

[XXguy]

It wasn't "Legalized" by the federal government. They just gave the states the right to regulate it however they see fit.

Hah, there's a whole thread on that over at the debate forum, but you have to sign up as a Premium or Lifetime Supporter member to read all the opinions on that. Not to get into the debate side of it, but read your Constitution, then tell me what Rights the Federal Government can "give" to anyone, let alone the states.

You've got your flow of authority all wrong.

 

[curlyfat]

What it this guy?

He's the Sheriff that busted the Alabama Homebrewer.

It might as well have been! Man that picture irks me every time I see it.