Homebrew and money

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phissionkorps said:
I don't get it. Why would you "pay yourself first"? Do you get paid for watching TV? Do you get paid for golfing? Those are fun things too. You don't get paid for cooking dinner or vacuuming, etc either. Most people can't set their own work hours, so it's not like they would be working 16 hour days if they weren't brewing.
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Again, the title of the thread is Homebrew and money. Not homebrew for fun. Anything I do that I consider work I pay myself first. So in that context if I considered brewing work, I would want to be paid.
 
VatorMan said:
Again, the title of the thread is Homebrew and money. Not homebrew for fun. Anything I do that I consider work I pay myself first. So in that context if I considered brewing work, I would want to be paid.
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Also this applies if you're trying to claim you can save money by homebrewing. As I said a few posts back you'd be better taking a job for those 10 hours a month and buying beer. You'd have money left over for chips too that way! :D
 
Do you know of anywhere that will hire you for 10 hours a month and lets you set your own schedule? Me neither, so you don't really need to include.

Even if I did consider my labor, every time I brew I probably only do an actual hours worth of work. The things that take the biggest time (boil, mash), I'm sitting in the other room studying. If I paid myself $20 (the cost of the batch) for that 1 hour of labor, I'm still saving at least $13 over store bought. Now of course everyone will say "oh but you didn't consider electricity and water!". My water is $15/month, and electric is about $80/month. I only brew 2 times or so a month, so it probably costs me $6 combined, tops.
Also, since it is a hobby, I think it saving money is just a nice benefit. As a hobby, the "you need to pay yourself" argument has no place in the cost analysis, especially since chances are, you don't work in a brewery. Cooking dinner is work, and is cheaper than going out, but you don't consider "paying yourself" chefs wages for it do you? You don't "pay yourself" the salary and gov't equivalent benefits for taking your garbage out do you?
 
Let's see...it cost me $40 to brew and bottle (got the bottles for free and caps for free too)....I got the equivilent of 53 bottles of beer....that's roughtly, $0.75 a bottle...now factor in what I usually spend per beer bottle...let's put it at an average of $2.50 a bottle...so I'm saving $1.75 a beer....even if I factor in my time, I'm still saving a hell of alot of money.
 
VatorMan said:
Again, the title of the thread is Homebrew and money. Not homebrew for fun. Anything I do that I consider work I pay myself first. So in that context if I considered brewing work, I would want to be paid.
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Yes, and I see that, but my post clearly stated, "...but if you enjoy it as a hobby...". By that I meant to say that it doesn't really count if you enjoy doing it.

Just like I don't include the time that I spend #@%king the wife, because if I compared that to the cost of having to buy it on the street, I'd realize that It's actually costing me much more, and I'm likely getting less quality goods! (Looks behind me to see if she's reading this...)
 
Homercidal said:
Just like I don't include the time that I spend #@%king the wife, because if I compared that to the cost of having to buy it on the street, I'd realize that It's actually costing me much more, and I'm likely getting less quality goods! (Looks behind me to see if she's reading this...)
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HA, freakin awesome!!
 
phissionkorps said:
I don't understand why people say it's hard to even break even. I'm sure if you put thousands into your set up, then I can see that. However, I have the basic startup kit + MLT + wort chiller. All of total was about $173 (including shipping for 2 of the things). If you go out and buy beer, anything decent is at least $1 per bottle. Now that I harvest yeast, buy hops in lbs, and do AG, my cost per batch is about $20, or 37 cents per bottle, saving me $33 minimum over the cost of buying 53 bottles of beer at the store. Once I start buying grain in bulk, it will even further decrease the cost. Sure, I'll have to buy a barley crusher first, but that will be paid for in a few batches compared to going out and buying beer at the store.
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Oh jeezus Fing Christ... I can't believe I have just been pulled into yet another economics of homebrewing thread.

OP - "When I first started homebrewing or even before I started I wanted one of my main reasons to start brewing to be money. I wanted to save on beer".

The goal was to homebrew to save money on beer. To that end, ultimate failure ensues. As soon as you disregard the labor due to "it's fun", you're creating a strawman. No one said it wasn't fun but if you're treat the question as a pure economic one, as the OP suggests, then no, you can't break even or save money unless you consider yourself worth less than minimum wage.

Think of the question this way (in order to remove the obvious "homebrewing is fun" bias that we all have);

Your neighbor comes over because he caught you homebrewing and says.."I hate cooking and I don't really want another hobby but I'd like to save money on my monthly beer habit. Will I save money by homebrewing?". You should reply, "no, take a few more hours down at the slaughterhouse Joe, this homebrewing thing is pretty labor intensive".
 
I started brewing 20 years ago for two reasons- I was underage, and it was cheaper. The economics have stayed the same, despite the price increase in hops. Brew your own, and you can drink Guinness for the price of Old Milwaukee. In 20 years, I can't think of anything I've added to my initial $80 in equipment except three glass carboys that I got used for $5 each. I've replaced tubing and racking canes, but that's about it.

I'm real close to moving to AG via brew in a bag because of the economics and simplicity, and I've got a house rather than a dorm room and hot plate.

Sure, I love the hobby, but if it cost MORE than buying beer I wouldn't do it.
 
I don't know that I really enjoy brewing or that I'm saving all that much if at all. I just prefer to do things myself, make things myself, build things myself, and generally surround myself with the fruits of my own labor.

In short, I don't like beer nearly as much as I like homemade beer, so I guess I'll keep on brewing.
 
I'd love to see a complete cost breakdown. Skip the equipment investment in your case.

Ingredients per batch.
Energy Cost to heat.
Water to chill.
Time spent planning.
Time spent brewing.
Time spent testing and bottling.

These are the costs of brewing. If you discount any one of them because you gain some immeasurable value for some other reason, it's a incomplete analysis.
 
Bobby_M said:
These are the costs of brewing. If you discount any one of them because you gain some immeasurable value for some other reason, it's a incomplete analysis.
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not too mention gas to and from LHBS, hotel costs after SWMBO kicks you out of the house for your obsession, etc...
 
I'd love to see a complete cost breakdown. Skip the equipment investment in your case.

Ingredients per batch.
Energy Cost to heat.
Water to chill.
Time spent planning.
Time spent brewing.
Time spent testing and bottling.
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Well as I stated on the last page:
Even if I did consider my labor, every time I brew I probably only do an actual hours worth of work. The things that take the biggest time (boil, mash), I'm sitting in the other room studying. If I paid myself $20 (the cost of the batch) for that 1 hour of labor, I'm still saving at least $13 over store bought. Now of course everyone will say "oh but you didn't consider electricity and water!". My water is $15/month, and electric is about $80/month. I only brew 2 times or so a month, so it probably costs me $6 combined, tops.
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So we're looking at at about $44 per batch tops for something less expensive and higher quality, which serves to just make it even less expensive comparatively. The $6 for electricity and water to brew 2 or so batches is a very, very liberal estimate as well, seeing as 99% of that water is taken up by showers/dishwasher/laundry, and 99% of the electricity is taken up by fridge, oven, laundry, dishwasher, computer, etc. As I've said before, you might be able to get some Pearl or Lost Lake for cheaper than you can brew, but who wants to drink that? I don't drink that, so you can't bring that up as a point in your defense....I'm not going to drink horse piss because it's cheaper. Last time I checked anyway, after taxes, even PBR is $12 for a 12pk. The point of the argument is, you can drink much higher quality stuff for the cost of horrible beer that you otherwise wouldn't be drinking anyway.

The argument that you need to "pay yourself" is totally irrelevant for a multitude of reasons. Like I've said multiple times, you don't "pay yourself" for cooking dinner as opposed to going out. You don't "pay yourself" to cut the lawn as opposed to hiring someone to do it. But hey, since there is some issue with seeing that it is asinine to apply that concept to brewing only and not to everything else, I'll play. I'm med a student, so I don't have a job. Since I'm not otherwise employed, I won't be making any money regardless. I guess technically I could go sack groceries, but even with that, you can't set your own schedule for whenever you want, not working for weeks, then just showing up for 2 hours, etc. The flexibility just isn't there. Not to mention, say you have a PhD and you teach, so you work set hours. Are you going to go sack groceries? I don't think so. You're time is more valuable than that if you're that accomplished. Now I'm doing something more important; I sacked groceries when I was 15.

I can tell no matter what, this is just going to get further into the minutae. Someone is just going to be complaining to consider more and more and more, even when it is totally irrelevant. It's like telling a brewery they aren't calculating the "real" cost because they aren't taking into account the everchanging mental state of every single one of their employees, which at times decreases productivity and costs them more than accounted for, or that since they buy their grain in massive bulk, some of it is really bug parts and other non-grain things that they really need to figure out the exact percentage of to know how much it's really costing them. Use your imagination.
 
This thread reminds me of a Cost Accounting class that I took back when I thought I had a desire to be an accountant (many, many years ago) There is this thing called a "cost of goods sold statement" We had to calculate every thing that went into making a pair of Jeans, and I mean just about every possible variable that would exist in such a factory. Can someone say YAWN!!!!!!! I like to think that I am saving money as opposed to buying fine crafted micros. I financed a lot of my equipment via free or already spent money. I sold Items on craigslist that I got for free (ie furniture) and Items that I bought and no longer (computer supplies and parts) So it was either free (to me) or money that was already spent. It is also an investment in myself. I do not pay myself to study computers (I am an IT guy) but the potential benefit for a promotion or better paying job is possible. But in all seriousness it is a hobby and the potential to make good beer for cheaper than you would pay in a store is there. RDWHAHB!!!

That's all folks
 
If these series of brewing economics threads have taught me anything it's that some people understand accounting and some people know just enough to rationalize their choices. The further problem is that all of us enjoy the hobby so much that we can't set that joy aside when considering literal facts.

In order to understand the actual cost, especially for those who claim they wouldn't be working anyway, is to replace the activity you love with one you think sucks. Imagine if in order to make beer, you had to hand wash dirty underwear for the same amount of time it takes to brew. Another way of trying to figure the personal cost of your time is to think about the job you could get, if you wanted it, right now.

I have never argued against the merit of brewing beer, far from it. I think it might be my favorite hobby and I beg people to learn about brewing. But I will never concede that brewing your own is a way of getting beer cheaper if that is one's only goal.

Anyone can twist the numbers, generalize, and complain that I'm nit picking at it but if you really want to solve the buy or brew, build or buy, inhouse or outsource problems in the real world, that's just how it's done.

Brianthebrewer, the main point is that I really hope you enjoy the process because it is obviously the one priceless reward in it. Think about it. I adamantly believe this is costing me a fortune and I still love it.
 
I probably shouldn't even bother posting, but its hard to resist.

Everybody's time has value. When you decide to sit on the back porch and drink a beer, you have done a subconscious cost-benefit analysis and valued your relaxation time as more valuable than that same amount of time spent doing chores (or whatever else you could be doing). The way economists are able to compare these things is to attach a dollar value to them.

When you go out and mow your lawn, you don't pay yourself to do it. Does this mean it cost you nothing? No. If someone offered to mow your lawn for the entire year for $1, most people would accept this offer (For the sake of argument, this person will be using your lawnmower and gas, so its just their labor that you are buying). But why would you spend a dollar when you were doing it for free before? Its because your time DOES have value. Its an inescapable conclusion.

Now back to beer. Many of us consider homebrew better than commercial stuff, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Lets make it one. Say you could brew your favorite commercial beer for $0.50 a bottle. Or you could buy it from the store for $1.50 a bottle. And lets just say it takes you 5 hours to make 50 bottles. Thats one hour for 10 bottles. Each bottle you brew saves you $1, so its $10/hr for your labor. Many people would choose to brew their own under these condition, but many would also rather go golfing or skiing in their spare time and just shell out the money for the beer. I know this is a simplified example, but it illustrates my point.

Alright, thats my two cents (actually closer to $5 of my time). I hope this helps some of you.
 
Jumbo82 said:
I probably shouldn't even bother posting, but its hard to resist.

Everybody's time has value. When you decide to sit on the back porch and drink a beer, you have done a subconscious cost-benefit analysis and valued your relaxation time as more valuable than that same amount of time spent doing chores (or whatever else you could be doing). The way economists are able to compare these things is to attach a dollar value to them.

When you go out and mow your lawn, you don't pay yourself to do it. Does this mean it cost you nothing? No. If someone offered to mow your lawn for the entire year for $1, most people would accept this offer (For the sake of argument, this person will be using your lawnmower and gas, so its just their labor that you are buying). But why would you spend a dollar when you were doing it for free before? Its because your time DOES have value. Its an inescapable conclusion.

Now back to beer. Many of us consider homebrew better than commercial stuff, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Lets make it one. Say you could brew your favorite commercial beer for $0.50 a bottle. Or you could buy it from the store for $1.50 a bottle. And lets just say it takes you 5 hours to make 50 bottles. Thats one hour for 10 bottles. Each bottle you brew saves you $1, so its $10/hr for your labor. Many people would choose to brew their own under these condition, but many would also rather go golfing or skiing in their spare time and just shell out the money for the beer. I know this is a simplified example, but it illustrates my point.

Alright, thats my two cents (actually closer to $5 of my time). I hope this helps some of you.
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Im at work right now and im getting paid to read your post...I love it :ban:
 
The money you've spent on brewgear has been spent on more than just beer, it's been spent on a lasting and worthwile hobby. You have gained more from spending it than you would just spending it on beer in the liquor store. Any money you spend less on beer from the store now is just gravy.
 
Boy oh boy has this thread grown legs.:rockin:

I see that some understand where I come from. I used to use a similar argument from people that lived a long way from work. My analogy:

If I call you on a Saturday morning to drive to work-how much would you charge? Most would not drive to work for less that $50 a day. I said that is what you think your time is worth driving EVERY day. If you wanted to live closer, you could pay an extra $200 a week and make $$$. Time is money. Hell, this post cost me $10.:fro:
 
VatorMan said:
Boy oh boy has this thread grown legs.:rockin:

I see that some understand where I come from. I used to use a similar argument from people that lived a long way from work. My analogy:

If I call you on a Saturday morning to drive to work-how much would you charge? Most would not drive to work for less that $50 a day. I said that is what you think your time is worth driving EVERY day. If you wanted to live closer, you could pay an extra $200 a week and make $$$. Time is money. Hell, this post cost me $10.:fro:
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Hahahahahahaha

Im getting paid right now at work to type this :)
 
Jumbo82 said:
Now back to beer. Many of us consider homebrew better than commercial stuff, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Lets make it one. Say you could brew your favorite commercial beer for $0.50 a bottle. Or you could buy it from the store for $1.50 a bottle. And lets just say it takes you 5 hours to make 50 bottles. Thats one hour for 10 bottles. Each bottle you brew saves you $1, so its $10/hr for your labor. Many people would choose to brew their own under these condition, but many would also rather go golfing or skiing in their spare time and just shell out the money for the beer. I know this is a simplified example, but it illustrates my point.

Alright, thats my two cents (actually closer to $5 of my time). I hope this helps some of you.
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I get no tangible goods from skiing or golfing, and they COST me money! But if I was going to drink good beer anyway, then by staying home and brewing I am saving money compared to using my time to go pursue other hobbies. I look at HB'ing on a small scale as a hobby I can actually afford and justify.

I see all the arguments about the time factor but.... I'd much rather be at home brewing while listening to music, drinking a beer, watching t.v. over my shoulder than working extra hours at work to pay for premium beer at the store.
 
goodbyebluesky82 said:
I get no tangible goods from skiing or golfing, and they COST me money! But if I was going to drink good beer anyway, then by staying home and brewing I am saving money compared to using my time to go pursue other hobbies. I look at HB'ing on a small scale as a hobby I can actually afford and justify.

I see all the arguments about the time factor but.... I'd much rather be at home brewing while listening to music, drinking a beer, watching t.v. over my shoulder than working extra hours at work to pay for premium beer at the store.
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I agree with you completely. I'd much rather brew beer than do just about anything else (especially working). I brew for the enjoyment of the hobby. My post was just pointing out that if someone views brewing as work, then they might as well just get a job instead. Brew for the love of the hobby, not to save a few bucks!
 
Well my original post was true, yes I do want to save money by brewing but I have not yet and I do believe now that we have spent alot on everything we need to do it with I will soon save some money even if its a few bucks. I just love brewing. I love beer. I love sharing it with friends. Thats the main reason I do this. I would like to save some mone though if I could. I hate going to the store all the time spending $45 on like 4-5 beers. Now thats only in one day/night. That $45 I could have made a big batch of some great brew and that batch would have lasted me like 2-3 weeks.
 
Well, homebrewing is just one of many hobbies for me. Fact is, I *could* consider time is money if I wanted to, but the cost is going to be different for each person.

Consider the person who loves to golf. Assuming it take 2.5 hours to golf 9 holes, and costs $20, then a round of 18 takes 5 hours and costs $40. So, that Saturday you could play a round of golf, or make beer. Fair comparison.

Consider the person who likes to fly. I have no idea what flying costs, because it is way too expensive for me to even think about. Let's say that a person flies for one hour on a Saturday, and it costs them $200 (again, just guessing). Let's say they spent 5 hours flying now, then it would cost $1000. Right? Wow, making beer sure seems to be a bargain now!

Well, now let's say that tis person really loves to sleep. He takes a 2 hour nap and it costs him... Well, it doesn't cost him, but multiply that by 2.25 and you get the cost for 5 hours of his enjoyment.
 
Also, the cost comparison, time=money not factored in, can vary depending on what kind of beer you like. You can hardly make beer like the cheapest stuff out there, so you would have to compare your costs with the price of a comparable beer.

Let's say you like Bell's Two Hearted IPA. Let's say that a six-pack costs $9. Now, 48 bottles would cost $72. You could honestly make a decent clone (or maybe even something better) for half that price. Or maybe like 2/3 the price, depends.

Again, you must factor in the cost of equipment, but that can vary depending on how much you enjoy brewing. Someone who's really into it might want all the fancy stuff, but you can also go cheap and spend very little.

I think the answer here is that you "Can" save money making your own beer, depending on the style of beer, and your personal methods, but I think that a good portion of our members spend significant amounts of money in their equipment, and also buying good commercial beer, now that their palates have been opened.
 
Saying that the time you spend brewing has to equate to some arbitrary amount of money really makes no amount of sense practically, especially if you enjoy brewing and want to make the time to brew on a regular basis.

You can always give yourself some arbitrary rate per hour to help you decide whether it is worth your time to brew a batch rather than buy beer, but spending more of your time doing something in order to save money has always been standard practice, ie, make dinner instead of go out for dinner, redo the kitchen yourself rather than pay someone to do it, etc.

If you have 70 bucks, but spend 40 bucks to make a batch a beer (includes water/electric/propane/ingredients/equipment/etc) that would normally cost you 70 bucks, you still have 30 bucks in your pocket regardless of whether you spent 1 hour or 8 hours brewing, and whether you arbitrarily declare you brew beer for $8 an hour or $20 an hour.
 
Factoring your time is absolutely necessary if the question is literally "is brewing your own beer cheaper than buying it?".

Maybe that is NEVER the question.

If the person asking DOES or MIGHT enjoy the process and find value in it, then the cost of time is significantly reduced, maybe even to zero.

Again, I revert back to saying that it's extremely hard for a brewing hobbyist to imagine NOT liking the process. For someone who doesn't... it could be like any other mundane chore that you hate doing. If you break the process down it's really just a whole lot of lifting and cleaning.
 
I can brew my beer for less than 13 cents per 12 oz. glass due to bulk buying of ingredients. That's just the hard costs of ingredients.

Now when I add in the expense of fuel, time, fuel spent to get the fuel, BrewHaus materials, time spent so far building the brewhaus, equipment, electricity.....

I guess I'm somewhere between 13 cents and 25 dollars a glass now. :D

I really don't care and don't want to know.

I enjoy the process and the results. It's a great hobby that is rewarding in many ways.
 
BrianTheBrewer said:
Whats your thoughts on this matter...?
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The way I figure it...if I needed money that bad that I needed to save $10-20 bucks on a batch of beer, I probably shouldn't be drinking any at all. Not saying anything bad about anyone else or judging anyone... just what I think about it. I like brewing crazy beer that I can't go and get at the corner store....
 
Brewing is a hobby and I have a blast doing it, so I don't factor in my time or my capital expenditures. Hey, my Brutus 10 stand and my Blichmann 14.5 conical, not to mention my keezer and 20 kegs, are really assets, not liabilities. :D Even that $1500 worth of welding equipment I bought to build my stand is really just another hobby expense, so I don't factor it into my cost of brewing.

I buy my base malts in bulk and I actually do save quite a lot of money by brewing my own when compared to the cost of the commercial brews I like, even though cost savings was not my intent. I continue to buy commercial brews I like anyway.
 
I definitely brew to save money. I know some here say they break even. That may be because of the beer they drink.

I have been pretty set on Belgians for the last few years. I dont see me abandoning my tastes anytime soon.

Anyways. A 8 or 9% Belgian bottle is usually sold in 750 ml and range from 6.99 to 13.99 and even more.

I can brew a 750 ml Trippel or Quad for about $2 a bottle.

So with my business plan it works great.
 
Bobby_M said:
Factoring your time is absolutely necessary if the question is literally "is brewing your own beer cheaper than buying it?".

Maybe that is NEVER the question.

If the person asking DOES or MIGHT enjoy the process and find value in it, then the cost of time is significantly reduced, maybe even to zero.

Again, I revert back to saying that it's extremely hard for a brewing hobbyist to imagine NOT liking the process. For someone who doesn't... it could be like any other mundane chore that you hate doing. If you break the process down it's really just a whole lot of lifting and cleaning.
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I really can't imagine anyone into this hobby that doesn't like all facets of it, including (and especially) brew day. If someone is dragging-ass through the whole process, I'd tell them to just go out and buy beer.

As far as I'm concerned, if I'm breaking even then it's worth it for me (because the sheer enjoyment of creating recipes, brewing them, etc, makes it so). The type of beer I drink is $30-$150 a case. Even the most expensive, exotic brews I do cost maybe $50 tops per five gallon batch. I couldn't even imagine doing a 5 gallon batch that costs $150 -- unless it was a truffle beer or something along those lines, and even then that's for over two cases equivalent.

Regarding the equipment -- grain mills, hops grow setups, carboys, etc etc etc -- most or all of that stuff will last a lifetime. Spread that cost out over decades and it really amounts to nothing if you brew on a regular basis. And too, a lot of the stuff like mills, etc, can be resold at a small loss -- or no loss at all if you're savvy.

But really, if you need to sit down and rationalize every dime you're spending on this hobby -- or any hobby at all -- you should probably cut your losses. Most hobbies entail an outlay of money that you won't recover. The fact that brewing has even the possibility of saving money is a huge advantage.
 
Look, when I posted this thread awhile back I did not really think through what I was trying to say. Bobby M is right and so is everyone else that says you will not save money homebrewing. I mean ya you can try, and you might if you go all cheap on everything you use to brew. Im just happy brewing. I watch what I spend, but im not in this to save money anymore. Its for the love of brewing.
 
Buy used when you can. Go slow in the hobby, try to make what you can and search CL daily for deals on cheap items. Most of all, enjoy the equipment you currently have and enjoy making the beer you do make. Don't constantly worry about the next greatest thing or try to rush to being a brewmaster, just enjoy what you can do.
 
I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything, and indeed I didn't read the beginning, or even the majority of this thread. I was just responding to some of the latter comments.

That said, if you're spending $30-$150 a case on brew, then I honestly believe one can save money brewing their own. As I mentioned, a lot of the more expensive equipment is an investment -- one that can be recovered if necessary at some point down the road (through resale). If you spread that cost out over years and years of brewing, it amounts to a hill of beans...at that point you're only looking at what you spend per batch, which for me is generally between $20 and $50 per five-ish gallons.

So the way I see it, at worst I'm breaking even.
 
I have thought of this. I dont brew now. Had a friend that used to and would kick in a few bucks for supplies, but it was time consuming. I am truly facinated by the entire process, thus I have a great respect for those whom brew.

With that being said, I do not have the time 2 kids w/ sports year round, the $$ it costs to get started (the right way), and the thought of failing and not making what I want. I find it easier to purchase the brew that I want when I want it.

I can talk about beer intelgently and appreciate fine beer, but I cannot brew. Maybe later in life w/out coaching my kids and finding 4-5 hrs to get in round of golf.

Hope that makes sense :drunk:
 

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