(Home made) PBW - safe for glass? (Safe in general?)

[osky777]

I've been using a mix of savogran TSP from HD and oxyclean free (30/70 or so). Never had any problems like you describe. Is the oxy cleaner you are using free of perfumes and dyes? Maybe could be something to do with the water profile where you are, or the concentration you are using.

 

[jsguitar]

I just made some PBW from the info in this thread and am very disappointed. I used 70% Sun Oxy Cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP/90. The Sun Oxy cleaner is sodium carbonate (cas # 497-19-8) and sodium percarbonate (cas # 15630-89-4). Nothing else. The Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% sodium metasilicate (cas # 6834-92-0).

I have used PBW for the last few years and thought it was great. It would clean anything and would rinse away fine. This homebrew, though, is awful. It seems to clean OK, but it leaves a thick, white chalky coating on everything unless you immediately scrub with soapy water and a scrubby. I just unscrewed my temp probe after running the solution through my system (at 150 degrees) and was horrified at what I saw. The coating would not come off with an aggressive scrubbing with dish detergent and hot water. I decided to leave it on to see if I could find something that will take it off without much effort so I could clean my HERMS coil with it. Oh, my poor herms coil!

Has anyone experienced this? Is there something else I can add to the mixture to prevent this terrible coating from accumulating on everything?

You might try star san. I think the acid will take the scale off.

I didn't have good luck with this mixture when I tried it a year or so ago either. My carboys would get deposits that I'd have to remove. I think that has to do with it not having the phosphates and chelating agents that PBW has - possibly a hard water issue. I'm not really sure, but that's why I went to the old formula dishwashing detergent (Cascade professional- not the stuff in stores).

It's hard to beat PBW though and by the time you add all of the other things to the homemade version you may as well buy it IMO.

 

[SigsNanoBrew]

It seems that PBW contains:

Sodium metasilicate: 10-30%
sodium percarbonate: 25 - 40%
polyalkylphosphonic acid (chelate): 3 - 8%
Surfactant: 2 - 6%
sodium carbonate (builder): balance

So the chelate and the surfactant that are lacking in PBW homebrews could make enough of a difference that you're seeing a film of calcium deposits that doesn't rinse off.

As an experiment, try using distilled water and see if you still see the white film or not. That will at least tell you if it has to do with your water or if the formula itself is the problem.

By the way, Cascade dishwashing detergent may contain SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE (chlorine bleach), which can not only pit stainless steel but also leave a toxic residue that can effect your beer if not fully rinsed off.

 

[jsguitar]

By the way, Cascade dishwashing detergent may contain SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE (chlorine bleach), which can not only pit stainless steel but also leave a toxic residue that can effect your beer if not fully rinsed off.

A couple of things to clarify. The Cascade professional line detergent that I have (no. 34953) does not contain sodium hypochlorite. It does contain sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydrate. How those behave differently is beyond me, but it doesn't smell particularly 'bleachy' and I've left it in stainless vessels for several days without issue. It also rinses easily with no ill effects on the beer. Would I soak it for a week? Well no, but I wouldn't do that with any cleaner and I'd hope people would rinse well with whatever they're using!

I believe it is the old Cascade formula. However, it looks like this product has been recently discontinued and is being replaced by something new.

 

[SigsNanoBrew]

I was just reading up on Better Bottle's site and they don't recommend aggressive detergents and caustics. (A 0.5% solution of PBW will have a pH approaching 12, whch is quite caustic.)

They recommend using enzyme-enhanced neutral detergents for washing BetterBottle carboys and fittings, the ones they mentioned are Seventh Generation Free and Clear Natural & Super Pro-zyme Enzymatic Cleaner.

They also say to never use stiff brushes, abrasive scouring pads, or cleansers, but instead put a small, thick rag, such as a face cloth or an piece of an old bath towel, inside a BetterBottle carboy with the detergent solution, to speed the removal of stubborn debris much more effectively than using a brush, which might scratch the surface.

From their site:

"If you use other types of washing agents (PBW etc.), be sure to dilute them in a bucket to the concentrations recommended by their manufacturers for routine cleaning and minimize the exposure of your equipment. Higher concentrations and long contact times should not be necessary and will likely shorten the useful life of your equipment."

"BetterBottle has tested mild, enzyme-enhanced, environmentally friendly detergents (Seventh Generation Free and Clear Natural & Super Pro-zyme Enzymatic Cleaner ), and found them to be very effective and essentially harmless to most equipment, even with weeks of exposure"

http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html

 

[cheez]

I just made some PBW from the info in this thread and am very disappointed. I used 70% Sun Oxy Cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP/90. The Sun Oxy cleaner is sodium carbonate (cas # 497-19-8) and sodium percarbonate (cas # 15630-89-4). Nothing else. The Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% sodium metasilicate (cas # 6834-92-0).

I have used PBW for the last few years and thought it was great. It would clean anything and would rinse away fine. This homebrew, though, is awful. It seems to clean OK, but it leaves a thick, white chalky coating on everything unless you immediately scrub with soapy water and a scrubby. I just unscrewed my temp probe after running the solution through my system (at 150 degrees) and was horrified at what I saw. The coating would not come off with an aggressive scrubbing with dish detergent and hot water. I decided to leave it on to see if I could find something that will take it off without much effort so I could clean my HERMS coil with it. Oh, my poor herms coil!

Has anyone experienced this? Is there something else I can add to the mixture to prevent this terrible coating from accumulating on everything?

I have had the exact same problem with the exact same brands you are using and it coats my HERMS coil as well. It also leaves a ring around the water level that I have to scrub off if it sits for too long. I have found that it helps a little if I use hotter water (170+), stir in the mixture, and don't let it sit for too long.

For a test, I put some homemade stuff in one kettle and PBW in another. The PBW didn't leave any residue while the homemade stuff left a bunch that I actually had to scrub off. I have noticed that straight up oxyclean/Sun will leave a white powdery film on stuff after it dries.

 

[SigsNanoBrew]

Sounds like you guys may have hard water. Have you tried the same comparison using distilled?

After reading the methods recommended by Better Bottle, I use cleaning agents very sparingly, wipe with a thick rag and rinse immediately.

I use a mixture of Seventh Generation Oxy Free & Clear, Seventh Generation Free & Clear Detergent, and TSP/90. Haven't noticed any white film but I never let it sit for long.

 

[lhommedieu]

I just ordered 10 lbs of 99% Sodium Percarbonate from Amazon and 4 lbs of Red Devil TSP 90 from Ace Hardware. Shipping was free or in-store pick up. Mixing the two together gave me an approximately 70/30% product. It worked out to about $2.67 per lb.

 

[dazed]

Let us know how it works out.

 

[lhommedieu]

Let us know how it works out.

I tried it tonight on two 6.5 gallon carboys that I did not have a chance to do anything else but rinse once last week. There was still plenty of brown sediment in each one. I put in about a 5 oz. of DIY PBW and filled them with water and let them sit for about 90 minutes. You could see that the sediment inside was literally being pushed out of the opening once it fell off the sides and came off the bottom. Then I drained them, refilled them with clean water and drained them again. Each carboy was crystal clean and I didn't need to use a brush. If I was to do this again I would probably rinse them twice, just to make sure - but I was really happy with the results. I should mention that I have very soft water.

My next "test" is to run a continuous circuit of 20 gallons of water at 160F and the appropriate amount of DIY PBW through my containers, hop rocket, chiller, hoses, and pumps for 20 minutes. Then rinse once with 20 gallons of clean water, and then again with 20 gallons of boiling water. I'll let you know how it goes.

Follow-up 4.21.14: Two things that I've noticed are (1) more of the powder gets dissolved if you use warm water in the carboys. I'm using water @125F and it washes out very well, leaving no deposit. (2) I have noticed very small grains on the bottom of my kettles at the end of the first wash, and will have to experiment with the two chemicals mentioned above. These washed away with boiling water and there was no deposit, so I'm not worrying too much.

Attached is a picture of the 10# bag of sodium percarbonate that I got from Amazon.com.

 

[lhommedieu]

Wash to clean hoses and other equipment went fine; using 125F water in carboys left them sparkling. I do notice some residue on the bottom of the carboys after the first wash; this is gone by the end of the second wash if I'm careful to swirl it out of the container.

At approximately $5/lb including shipping for 55# of commercial PBW, I'm currently on the fence. Sure, commercial PBW is more expensive, but it seems to contain some additives that my DIY project does not, and these might contribute to the overall effectiveness of the product.

 

[dazed]

Try using 160F water ...My jar of PBW says 160F for CIP thats what I always aim for.

I just checked the pdf and it says 130-180F now depending on soil load.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

I also always spray or run star-san on stuff treated with PBW also....I think the star san reacts with the low PH or something like that, with the residue of PBW ....as to not leave one.

 

[lhommedieu]

Try using 160F water ...My jar of PBW says 160F for CIP thats what I always aim for.

I just checked the pdf and it says 130-180F now depending on soil load.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

I also always spray or run star-san on stuff treated with PBW also....I think the star san reacts with the low PH or something like that, with the residue of PBW ....as to not leave one.

Agreed. I'm using it at 160F with hoses and stainless steel containers, with a rinse with boiling water at the end to sterilize everything. With carboys I'm leery of going that high, so I rinse several times with 125F water. As long as I'm careful to swirl at the end of the first wash, I don't get any residue. Next winter when I switch to conical fermenters it won't be an issue. I've switched to brewer's iodine for carboy sterilization; for some reason I just don't like StarSan unless it's been rinsed off.

 

[dazed]

Rinsing with boiling water wont sterilize...at best sanitize

 

[lhommedieu]

You are correct. The term that I should have used is "sanitize." To sanitize is to reduce the level of bacteria, yeast, mold etc. to the point where they won't infect the beer. To sterilize is to kill all organisms. Flushing my system with 20 gallons of boiling water, after recirculating with PBW and then again with 160F water, should sanitize my lines and containers to an acceptable level for brewing.

 

[louis]

That said, that warning is on a package of 100% sodium metasilicate, not a diluted down version. I mean, if Five Star are saying "Yes, PBW is 70/30 sodium percarbonate/sodium metasilicate" then surely the homemade version using those exact ingredients should be the same?.

While I cannot comment on the contents of PBW (I would really like to know! as I use a lot and would like to save $$$). I would do a test for sure. Keep in mind safety precautions.

The warning about 100% sodium metasilicate does deserve investigation. There are lots of other products out there that we use which are safe in lower concentrations that we use everyday like Hydrogen Peroxide (3% solution for cuts, 6% solution for beauty products (need gloves at this point), and 30% solution which is corrosive you don't want this on your hands or in your eyes.) or Vinegar (~5% Acetic acid).

I think anyone making there own should familiarize themselves with the safety of sodium metasilicate in various concentrations.

 

[lhommedieu]

I just wanted to follow-up as it's been a few months since I last posted. Overall, I would rate this project a success. My hoses, glass, and stainless containers get clean with my DIY PBW method (above). I would say that the only caveats are to remember to rinse well if you are using it at a lower tempeature for carboys, and to use eye protection and gloves when using the product.

I've been able to use it with no ill-effect on a variety of household projects as well. I was even able to disolve a residue/stain on a glass decanter that had resisted numerous soakings with other products. The decanter is now "crystal clean."

 

[user 40839]

Yerp. Having used the "homemade PBW" for a few years now, I've had zero issues.

 

[aangel]

I've done the 5 parts pbw to 3 parts tsp/90 to 2 parts 7th generation dishwasher powder as is the full recipe enumerated in the other thread.

It leaves crappy white deposits on everything. PBW didn't do that. I imagine it's something to do with the exact water chemistry I have.

I think I'm going to just eventually use a CIP setup with half-strength pbw in the future to save money.

 

[William656]

FWIW, I am going to try to add a Chelating ingredient to my 70/30 mix and see what that does.

https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Tetrasodium_EDTA/177/

At a useable rate of 0.2%, in a 10 pound batch, that puts it at 0.8oz per batch. You can get 4.4oz on Amazon now for under $10. So that will add about $2 per 10 pound batch.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005VEDTEO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

You can get it cheaper if you buy 5 pounds, but that would prolly make like 500 pounds of cleaner.

We'll see how it goes. :hs:

 

[Bilsch]

Doing a little research on Amazon I see one can purchase....
Sodium metasilicate- 3 lbs $12
Sodium percarbonate- 10 lbs $21.50
Sodium carbonate- 5 lbs $13.50
Those prices delivered.
Roughly following the PBW formula posted earlier..
30% metasilicate
40% percarbonate
30% carbonate
Mixing your own comes out to about $2.87/lb of course without the chealating agent but for those, like me with soft water, it's a great deal. And no chance of any extra detergents from unknown oxy-whatever formulations or wall cleaning compounds.

 

[passedpawn]

Doing a little research on Amazon I see one can purchase....
Sodium metasilicate- 3 lbs $12
Sodium percarbonate- 10 lbs $21.50
Sodium carbonate- 5 lbs $13.50
Those prices delivered.
Roughly following the PBW formula posted earlier..
30% metasilicate
40% percarbonate
30% carbonate
Mixing your own comes out to about $2.87/lb of course without the chealating agent but for those, like me with soft water, it's a great deal. And no chance of any extra detergents from unknown oxy-whatever formulations or wall cleaning compounds.

I think a bit of citric acid can be added as a chelating agent. I have a water softener too, so I don't really need it either. My local health food store carries it in powder form (I use it for cheesemaking).

 

[Bilsch]

I'm thinking citric acid wouldn't work too well since with all the sodium carbonate this would be an alkaline solution and adding the acid would immediately form sodium citrate.

 

[PeteNMA]

Sodium salts fully dissociate in water, so sodium citrate won't form in solution. The high pH of the solution will actually ensure that the tri-anionic form of the citrate ion is dominant in solution.

However, citrate is not a particularly strong chelator, so you may need more of it than you might think depending on the hardness of your water.

 

[Yambor44]

I use 4 pounds of Oxy (SunOxy) and 1 pound TSP (Red Devil). Have used it with City municipal water and now a water softener on a well. Seems to work great for me at this rate with both sources of hot water.

 

[indolent]

FWIW, I am going to try to add a Chelating ingredient to my 70/30 mix and see what that does.

https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Tetrasodium_EDTA/177/

At a useable rate of 0.2%, in a 10 pound batch, that puts it at 0.8oz per batch. You can get 4.4oz on Amazon now for under $10. So that will add about $2 per 10 pound batch.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005VEDTEO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

How did this end up working for you?