Home brewing in Japan

[Nomofett]

Yeah, its headquarters is in Tokyo. http://www.daiei.co.jp/index.php

Also, do you live in Tokyo? On one of the FB groups someone gave me the results of a water report they got done in Tokyo. It's a few years old and that stuff changes but it'd be a good basic guide. I can find it if you want.

The digital ph meters work well from what I've heard. I got a 4 (maybe 6?) thousand yen one that goes to 0.01 because everything I read online from people with a 0.1 said they wished they had a 0.01 one so I figured might as well just spend a little extra now. Is it worth it? Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt and since I do small batch I don't have any other spends equipment.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Yea, I'd like to look at it... it might help me figure things out, even though I am not in Tokyo these days.

 

[Nomofett]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1457941278.383129.jpg

Luckily I wrote it in my notes so it was easy to find. Looking at the water report in my city in Hyogo the stuff that was on both was close to this so it should give you a basic estimate, I think. But then again it's all sciency stuff that I don't really know about

 

[Blue-Frog]

Gotcha! Thanks!

 

[sabotenfighter]

Here is the one for my hood. Searched my municipal water supplier's site for around an hour trying to find the damn thing and started translating it during lunch one day and never bothered finishing it. Quite a bit more detailed than what we need.
In the search I also found a general water report for the big cities here. The water varies quite a bit. Especially chlorine/chloramine content.

View attachment Tenpaku-ku water report.pdf

 

[Blue-Frog]

Yeah, its headquarters is in Tokyo. http://www.daiei.co.jp/index.php

You know, I may have never seen it before. thanks

 

[Blue-Frog]

Water reports...
yea, doesn't look quite complete enough for really good brewery work. (?)

What would you (anyone here) do in general, to brew a Porter?

 

[snow16]

I am FAR from an expert in water chemistry, but I have become interested in it and done a lot of reading over the past year or so. I had a few consecutive batches with off flavors a while back, so before heading home to the States one time, I filled up a PET bottle with my tap water and sent it off to Ward Labs in Nebraska for a detailed analysis. Not exactly a convenient thing to do unless you're on your way to the States anyway (and I don't even know what US customs would say about that...), but it was probably the best thing I've ever done for my brewing. Long story short, my Japanese tap water was not the cause of my off flavors. That's another issue in itself - but what I found is that my water is an ideal 'blank slate' for brewing. With just minor additions of gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom salts, depending on the style, the beer I brew now is far superior to what I brewed before I saw the report and had it interpreted for me.

Obviously your water will be different (possibly very different) from my water up here in Fukushima. But what I've found IN GENERAL is that Japanese water seems to be on the soft side, which is better than the alternative because we can adjust our water profiles simply by adding small additions of brewing salts, rather than having to 'cut' our tap water with distilled or RO water because of its high mineral content.

My water up here looks like this:

pH: 5.9
Calcium: 11
Magnesium: 3
Sodium: 4
Sulfate: 18
Chloride: 3
Bicarbonate: 21
Alkalinity: 16

I posted this profile in the 'water chemistry' or 'brewing science' forum on this website and got amazing feedback from folks who are true experts on this stuff. One of the guys who helped me wrote this program, 'Bru'n'Water': https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/home/files I HIGHLY recommend downloading this and giving it a try.

To Blue-Frog above, if your water profile is anything like mine or anything like the 'Tokyo' profile posted above, you can probably brew a great porter without doing much at all. With my water profile (and with the 'Tokyo' profile above), I would add just a small amount of food grade Calcium Chloride (purchased on Amazon or Rakuten) to boost my chloride content to about 60ppm, or thereabouts, for very dark, malty beers. It seems to add a smoothness and roundness to the malt character.

Bru'n'Water recommends the following profile for 'black, malty beers':

Calcium: 60
Magnesium: 5
Sodium: 20
Sulfate: 29
Chloride: 41
Bicarbonate: 155

There's a WHOLE LOT that goes into all of this and I just know the tip of the iceberg, but maybe this will help someone out there. I just thought I'd share what little knowledge I've accumulated over the past few months of trying to mess with my own brewing water after getting mine analyzed. Happy brewing -

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist or an authority on this subject whatsoever.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Thank you for that post.
The information will be used.

I was wondering about porters etc. because of something I heard about
the mash pH and dark malts... I can't remember what it was... just something about acidity...

in our new location, I have noticed scale build-up on water fixtures that was unexpected... I am wondering if soft water that deposits scale is a real thing... :fro: or if it's just this guys dandruff.

 

[snow16]

Yes, dark/roasted/caramel malts have an acidifying effect on the mash. But as I understand it, the extent to which they lower your actual mash pH is determined by a lot of other things - particularly your water's bicarbonate level, as bicarbonate acts as an acid buffer. So basically if your water is high in bicarbonates (like the water used for brewing Guinness and other famous dark beers), the dark malts will bring your mash pH down to a level suitable for brewing, hopefully not lower. But if you have very little bicarbonate in your water, your mash pH could go lower than is ideal for brewing after the addition of so much dark malt. Another thing to consider is that if you add calcium chloride or calcium sulfate to bring your chloride or sulfate content up, the calcium that you added along with it is also going to have an acidifying effect on the mash. Again, there's way more that goes into all of this that is way over my head, but that's what I've taken from my little bit of research.

So how do you know if your pH is too low and what do you do about it? Honestly, when I brew dark beers I don't know. I plug all of my information into that Bru'n'Water spreadsheet and it gives me an estimate of what my mash pH will be after adding whatever grains I input. It's never been outside of the recommended brewing range, and I've never had any problems that I can attribute to low mash pH. If I were having problems and I had the money, I would buy a nice pH meter. But I don't have the money and I've been told by many people who know far more than I do that the 'el cheap' pH meters are very inaccurate and not even worth trifling with.

As for soft water that deposits a scale - I have no idea...! Do your best to get as accurate a report of your water as possible, and make tiny additions from there. If you get a water report, post it up in the brewing science section. I'm sure a guy called 'ajdelange' will comment on it. Listen to that guy. His knowledge is incredible.

 

[Guzzibrew]

Hey Nomofett,

I've been using a similar approach for 3 years- no problems but the original recipe (outlined by the maker of Starsan) is:
1oz (29.57ml) bleach *5* gallons (18.9l) water 1oz vinegar. 30 seconds of contact time.

Here is the source from 2007: http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/9/0/390...58399415&hwt=dd8690bf656e38d8c9fd718024f629f8 (at 19:00)

He also talks the difference between cleaning and sanitizing and about old bleach and why you need the vinegar.

Five gallons however, is too much for me (it has no shelf life) and my equipment is metric so I do:
7.5ml bleach, 4.75 L, 7.5ml vinegar. I use this sanitizer for my bottles, hoses and plastic fermenters.

One thing to note- bleach causes micro pitting on stainless steel- so if you have stainless equipment use something else (I use Starsan only for my stainless).

1 oz bleach 1 oz vinegar for every 1 gallon of water. Put one in, fill in most of the water, put the other one in. It works great as a no rinse sanitizer. Do NOT put them in the water at the same time, wait until one is diluted in the water.

 

[Nomofett]

Oops, thanks, I use metric also and I weigh it so I was afraid I was gonna get something wrong so I googled it and got that. Yeah I usually use 14grams per 9 liters, which is pretty much the same. 9 liters is about the right size for me to soak stuff in.

I didn't know about the stainless steel thing, thanks! Luckily I don't have enough money for stainless steel stuff yet but that's good to know for when I upgrade!

 

[Blue-Frog]

(it has no shelf life)

I concur with everything said, but anecdotal evidence (smell) indicates an increase in punch with time up to a point... and actually a limited "shelf life" (weeks rather than months or years).
I think the release of chlorine is not all that "instant"....

I will do some testing if doubt is phenomenormous,
(haha just coined a new word?!!).

I do use 5 gal. and soak in it.
With smaller amts, are you spraying it?

 

[tektonjp]

Funny, whenever I've pitched the use of the bleach/vinegar on other threads here, some folks get very very upset because of the potentially dangerous mixing of the two and say it won't work. Even backing it up with Charlie's statement, the furor continued. But I still use it. My empty fermenter gets the hottest water out of my IC and I add the bleach and vinegar to the hot water to sanitise it and any other bits for cold side work (transfer hose, air-lock, etc).

 

[Blue-Frog]

Humm, not so sure about hot water and bleach...
I think hot water with chlorine in it is a prettty good way to drive off the chlorine.
Or, perhaps it gives you a quicker, bigger bang for your buck(?!)... if so this might minimize the safety being provided by the water in the first place; not really sure about the kinetics here but its something to consider at any rate.

As far as nay sayers...
Well, I think it is better not to publicly push the method.
Murphy's Law applies here.

 

[Guzzibrew]

BlueFrog,

I use just enough so I can fill half my fermenter. I stand it upright, then invert it to get my 30 seconds of contact time.

I know the amounts of beach and vinegar are small but I hate to dump all that solution down the drain.

I've also kept the solution around for a bit- but never longer than a week- it would be good to know how long it stays viable. I'd love to be able to keep it around for 2-3 weeks then I could sanitize my fermenter and then bottles/ equipment before bottling.

Tektonjp,

The only stainless I have is my kettle, grain basket, hop screen, valves and some kegs that I use as secondary fermenters and then keg serving.

Speaking of which, I have a couple of extra 5 gallon kegs (fully rebuilt with new gaskets) that are surplus to my needs- if anyone needs any shoot me a PM.

GB

 

[Blue-Frog]

BlueFrog,

...the amounts of beach and vinegar are small but I hate to dump all that solution down the drain.

I've also kept the solution around for a bit- but never longer than a week- it would be good to know how long it stays viable. I'd love to be able to keep it around for 2-3 weeks then I could sanitize my fermenter and then bottles/ equipment before bottling.

I understand.
I have been scheming up tests for effectiviness; typical residual solution volumes (based on size of container) and acceptably safe, maximum concentration levels.

Is everyone else using this method with their equipment
rinsed, unrinsed, wet or dry?

(I am using it while still damp moist wet)

 

[tektonjp]

I understand.
I have been scheming up tests for effectiviness; typical residual solution volumes (based on size of container) and acceptably safe, maximum concentration levels.

Is everyone else using this method with their equipment
rinsed, unrinsed, wet or dry?

(I am using it while still damp moist wet)

Well, the advantage of the bleach/vinegar, I thought, was that the addition of vinegar, besides increasing the killing power of bleach, also made the solution into a no rinse one. I could be wrong; it's been a long time since I listened to Charlie Talley.

And this about bleach. You're right about the hot water, I believe.

http://www.info.gov.hk/info/sars/en/useofbleach.htm

 

[Blue-Frog]

IIRC, it is no rinse because the effective concentration is low enough that any problems are simply well below threshold. At higher concentrations it must be rinsed.

And that makes as much sense as taking a good shower -
then drying off with a dirty towel.

 

[OppamaBrendan]

Its been a while since I have used the bleach/vinegar solution. I don't think it has a safe shelf life, I lost a brew when using week old stuff. I believe the addition of vinegar makes the chlorine more volatile. Think of campden tablets and sulfur dioxide: it off-gasses almost completely in 24 hours. Chlorine in tapwater off-gasses in 24 hours. Its not worth the risk to me, so if I were to use the mixture again I would mix a fresh batch every day I needed it.
If you don't want to feel like you are wasting it, you can put it in spray bottles and hit your shower room walls, kitchen counters & floor, and other household cleaning tasks with the leftovers.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Hi Brendan,

Nice to see you here again.
Sorry to hear about the loss of one of your brews.
I will be testing the method in the future, just to quench my curiosity, but I do notice what appears to be an increase in the chlorine content over the course of several days.

Making a fresh batch each time is not a bad idea, although I think your best suggestion was to us it around the house... I hadn't thought of that!

Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
(Hanami)

 

[OppamaBrendan]

Ah, I lost that batch 2 years ago at least. To tell you the truth, I bottled it without noticing off flavors. It slowly developed a ring in the neck of some bottles, so I knew it was contaminated, but by the time I noticed that I had drank half of it. It wasn't intensely off, I checked other craft people's opinions at the time and it was barely noticeable to them even when they knew what to look for. That being said, I got my hands on some starsan ASAP after that and didn't look back. Watch out for the 2 types of bleach in Japan - one has additives, a surfactant I think. Blue and Pink caps - anyone know which one is the safe one for mixing? I've forgotten.

Yes I will be at Hanami. I made a bright pink wheat beer using beetroots. Its not too bad, a bit earthy but that was the trade-off for the coloring. My wife is coming too so I don't suspect we will stay too late.

In other news I was given a 2 ring commercial cast iron burner to use with city-gas. They are not supposed to be used in homes so I picked up 5 meters of gas hose and will try an outdoor brew for the first time next time I brew.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Well, I have one bottle for the kitchen with a pink top... and it does have a surfacant... I use a plain bleach in the brewery that has a blue lid... but it is an entirely different product.

Wheat beer... one of my favorites!

 

[jkpenrod]

So I just posted a new thread, but just in case someone looks in here first. I am wondering if I can bring ingredients with me when I move to Japan at the end of May. I have several sealed bags of DME, specialty Grains, and Hops I also have a couple of items that have been opened, I am wondering which of these if any I can bring into country when I come and if it is best to Ship or to put in luggage.

Thanks

 

[Blue-Frog]

I'd say yes, no problem,
but you should be aware taxation laws prohibit homebrewing of anything over1%...
if you are asked, it might be better to identify products as "barley" or "food" rather than "beer making supplies"

Luggage should be fine. TSA sucks. Noone is more safe because they took away my bottle of nutella!

(as a rude opportunistic sidenote!) I need a red antisediment tip for my auto siphon...
a $0.99 item that costs $50+ to send via more beer etc.
If you could bring one with you... BEER!

https://www.morebeer.com/category/beer-racking-siphoning.html

Its crazy that they won't simply stick it in an envelop and send it to me as any friend might do!

See you in Japan!

 

[Guzzibrew]

jkpenrod,

Shipping is expensive unless you clear customs yourself, then it isn't too expensive. It's even easier if you crate it for shipping and organize a shipper- but that can be a pain.

Carrying it on the plane can get expensive quick- depending on the airline. Some charge per extra kilo some per piece. If you weigh everything then it can be reasonable. Korean Airlines for example charged me $100 for 25kg (above the standard 2 pieces of 25kg luggage allowed). If you are traveling with kids or someone and they are not using their 25 kg then you can pack a bag for them...

If I were you I would focus on stuff that weighs less: hops or specialty grains (of which you need less), yeast and any other things you use to brew (nutrients, cleaners, ect). Of course if you brew with DME then it is way cheaper in North American than here, but whole grains are not that expensive if you buy 25kg at a shot or split a shipment with a friend.

What ever you do I would not mention brewing beer unless prompted. I would stick with baking supplies or the like.

Welcome to Japan!

 

[mikebutcher]

hey every one, first post, i recently moved to yokosuka and am trying to get my footing here as far as brewing goes, I'm currently looking for a Co2 bottle and a few other things. is there anyone in the area that would be interested in meeting up for drinks/ good times?

 

[Spubby]

Hello! I'm new to Japan, specially Tokyo/Kawasaki area. I've been home brewing for about 6 months with all grain. It's been super frustrating finding things but I'm getting better with katakana words and this thread has been infinitely helpful. I'm close to doing my first all grain batch - it's for a friends wedding.... No pressure !

I saw there was a Tokyo Facebook group. Any chance I can join ?

 

[tektonjp]

hey every one, first post, i recently moved to yokosuka and am trying to get my footing here as far as brewing goes, I'm currently looking for a Co2 bottle and a few other things. is there anyone in the area that would be interested in meeting up for drinks/ good times?

Mike, did you ever find your CO2 bottle? Usually you can snag one at a liquor store. You pay about 5000 for deposit and 2700-3000 for the contents. Just be aware that if you are planning to hook it up to a US regulator you'll need an trhead adaptor.

 

[mikebutcher]

Mike, did you ever find your CO2 bottle? Usually you can snag one at a liquor store. You pay about 5000 for deposit and 2700-3000 for the contents. Just be aware that if you are planning to hook it up to a US regulator you'll need an trhead adaptor.

I'm actually out of town right now but I'll be back next week, I'm doing as much research as I can before I get back so I can get cracking on a brew I'll need to find a ref as well but thank you for the info it really helps.