Holy Moley Yeast is Expensive!!

[pbowler]

9 lb's assorted .99/lb $8.81
2 oz Hops @ $1.25 = $2.50
1 Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast smack Pack $7 freakin dollars.

the yeast is almost half the freakin cost?!?!


Thats it, I now have some Lager yeast from the pilsner still in the Secondary (not too late is it?)

the bottom of the Hogaarden that I saved, and this Irish ale yeast

Time to start searching the board for how to harvest yeast.

I'm searching as you read this, but feel free to point me in the right Direction.

 

[rod]

my local hbs only has dry yeast so when i want liquid it is $8.95 canadian and
$11.70 ups shipping
i make sure i need more than yeast when i place an on-line order

 

[Desert_Sky]

Thats why Ive been using dry yeast a majority of the time now. Anybody think the variety of dry yeast will eventually catch up with the liquid?

 

[Blender]

Here is one thread on the subject. I try to get 2-3 brews out of a vial. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9540&highlight=harvest+yeast

 

[sonvolt]

I started (many years ago) with cheap dry yeast - coopers, etc. that came with kits.

When I got serious, I switched to liquid yeasts. My beer improved.

Lately, (last 10 or so batches) I have switched back to dry yeast because I was getting really sick of spending so much $$$ on yeast. I have used the quality dried yeast like Nottingham and Safale. My beer has improved again.

I like dried yeast a lot better because it is cheaper and you get so many more cells in the packet.

Now, I only use liquid yeast for specialty brews. A belgian is simply not a belgian without a belgian yeast.

 

[sonvolt]

By the way. Last Thursday, I brewed an Oatmeal Stout with the Nottingham yeast - stuff fermented out in about 2 days. I racked it to secondary last night - clean and clear!

Last night, I also pitched a pale ale onto that same yeast cake at about 8 pm. It was fermenting in about 30 minutes. This morning, it was going balistic - I will guess that it has fermented out by the time I get home today (1 pm).

That stuff is seriously amazing. Like the Cali-Ale strain (1056), it is a clean flavor, high floccing yeast. I don't think that I have been impressed with a yeast as much as this one. My only complaint is that its taste may be too neutral, but that is what I want in much of my session beers.

 

[Dr Malt]

Pbowler:

Your financial analysis of the cost of making a batch of homebrew seems correct. I would suggest, as someone else has here, that you collect your new yeast from your first brew and use it again for about 3-4 times. That way you spread the cost of the smack pack over more batches of beer and your cost goes to $2.00 per batch or less. I collect the yeast and trub out of my primary fermentor(bucket) after each brew and store it in a frig until I need it. I collect it in a sanitized plastic container with a screw top lid. I store it in the frig with the lid on loosely for CO2 escape. When it comes time to use it, I add about a cup or so of sterile water (water boiled in a covered pan on the stove for 15 minutes and then cooled), swirl, let sit for about 2 minutes or so and pour the liguid off the settled trub into my sanitized jar I use to prepare a yeast starter. I then add sterile wort to the yeast and add an air lock and let sit for a day or so until I brew. You will find that reused yeast from such a starter begins fermenting in fresh wort much quicker than the original smack pack. This is because you are adding a much larger amount of yeast to the volume of wort, or in brewing terms, you have increased your pitching rate. I only use my yeast 3-4 times because 2 things begin happening when you reuse yeast. One is they change slowly by adapting to the environment or the beers they have been in as well as mutate (genetic adaptation). Second, along with your yeast, there are some bacteria along for the ride as we do not work under sterile conditions as home brewers. Thus, it is best if you buy new yeast after about 4 bactches to start fresh. I usually only want about 4 batches of a given style of beer and want to change yeast anyways.

One other comment, if you look at the time, effort and cost of producing and supplying liquid pure strain yeast, the $7.00 is actually a very fair price. If you decide to propagate your own yeast, you will need a large pressure cooker to sterilize things, test tubes, dry malt extract, agar, other lab glassware, etc, not counting your time. You will have to buy a lot of yeast to equal the cost of propagating your own. Price it out and see.

Just my 2 cents.


Dr Malt

 

[pbowler]

So the yeast left over in the Secondary is what you pitch on to or the yeast from the primary?

and so you filter your wort?

how do you seperate the yeast from the rest of that crap in the trub?

 

[Dude]

Thats why Ive been using dry yeast a majority of the time now. Anybody think the variety of dry yeast will eventually catch up with the liquid?

I think eventually it will get there.

I use safale 56 in about 85% of my recipes. I like it better than liquid--mainly because if you don't have time for a starter, you can pitch 2 packs of dry for half the cost, and still have more yeast cells than if you did a starter anyway.

I also keep a packet around for an occasional stuck ferment.

 

[Evan!]

I too am dismayed by the high price of liquid. That, coupled with the fact that I have no local HBS, and summertime temps are not kind to liquid yeast on a UPS truck for several days making the journey from Texas to Virginia, led me to use dry yeasts on almost every one of my first 12 batches (the exception was a wit that my friend cultured the yeast from a bottle of Legend (Richmond) wit). However, I have noticed that, while using dry yeast, it seems like there is a certain complexity that is lacking in many of my beers---especially the ones that are true to style and don't use any crazy adjuncts. So, given that the temps have started to fall, I ordered some Wyeast smackpacks from Austin and fermented my first batch (Dunkelweizen) with purchased liquid.

Even though there's still airlock activity, I already notice a difference. What might that be? Well, when you walk into my fermentation room, the whole room smells like ripe bananas---just like a great bavarian wiessebier! That comes from the yeasts, baby, that German Wheat Wyeast 3333 strain. Given that, prior to brewing, I was already a beer nerd/connoisseur, and have become accustomed to complex, character-filled beers, I don't think I can linger in dry-yeast-land anymore. So much of beer is the complexity offered by the yeast strain, and generic dry strains just don't do well enough. And even though it's not even done fermenting, the fact that my fermentation room smells like bananas is proof enough for me.

Yes, they're expensive, but I think, when this one is done, I'm going to clean and harvest the yeast for another wheat beer...perhaps an apricot hefe. If you can get 3 uses out of a $7 smackpack, then you bring your costs down to equal the dry packs.

 

[Truble]

I use safale 56 in about 85% of my recipes. I like it better than liquid--mainly because if you don't have time for a starter, you can pitch 2 packs of dry for half the cost, and still have more yeast cells than if you did a starter anyway.
I also keep a packet around for an occasional stuck ferment.

This is me too, though I have also used s-04 as well. I have been happy. I have only used liquid in instances where I buy a kit, but most of my brews are made up recipes. I also keep a pack on standby.

 

[feedthebear]

I'm just happy that I've found a place to buy Brettanomyces for Lambic brewing.

 

[pbowler]

Too fast for me Dr. malt.

Excellent post thanks.

a few Questions:

1.when you say pour the liquid off the settled trub, is this then the yeast for a starter? when then of the Settled Trub, discard it?

2. where do you come by the sterile Wort you use for a starter? is this a small DME + Water mix you keep for this sole purpose? Can you store this sterile Wort?

This is exactly what I was after, thanks a ton. I certainly have no intentions of pressure cooking anything, i have enough work as it is.

thanks again!

 

[chillHayze]

This thread is the ruler of all yeast threads <<---Click

Check out HB_99's post near the top of page 2 for a good timeline, and Yuri's post on page 3 (near the middle) for pictures of what to look for.

 

[Blender]

Too fast for me Dr. malt.

Excellent post thanks.

a few Questions:

1.when you say pour the liquid off the settled trub, is this then the yeast for a starter? when then of the Settled Trub, discard it?

2. where do you come by the sterile Wort you use for a starter? is this a small DME + Water mix you keep for this sole purpose? Can you store this sterile Wort?

This is exactly what I was after, thanks a ton. I certainly have no intentions of pressure cooking anything, i have enough work as it is.

thanks again!

1. You can discard the settled trub. It will separate again and the yeast will settle on the bottom of the container.

2. You can make a starter with DME to a solution of about 1.040 for a starter. Boil it for 15 minutes and cool it to around 70 or so and do this a couple of days before brewing.

 

[david_42]

Anybody think the variety of dry yeast will eventually catch up with the liquid?

I doubt it. Most ale and lager yeasts cannot tolerate being dried and most of the dried strains have been around for decades. I did see a new dried Belgian yeast just last month. The number of dried yeasts will increase, but liquid yeasts will always have a wider range.

 

[sonvolt]

1. You can discard the settled trub. It will separate again and the yeast will settle on the bottom of the container.

This is one reason that you have to be a bit careful using this method. If you are always collecting those cells that are on the bottom, you are collecting the highest flocculating cells in the entire bunch. As you use the yeast a 3rd or 4th time, they will have mutated into a higher floccing yeast strain. You may not get the attenuation you had in the first batch because you are using only those cells that flocc out the best.

I am sure that after just a few generations, the mutation is minimal. However, if your last few beers from a given strain don't get you the FG's you are looking for, this is why.

Just a thought to consider.

 

[user 574]

So the yeast left over in the Secondary is what you pitch on to or the yeast from the primary?

and so you filter your wort?

how do you seperate the yeast from the rest of that crap in the trub?

Primary. And if you're not going to go through the wash and save for another day approach (read other posts), you just toss it on "all the crap". It'll probably finish in 2-3 days tops and I always rack as soon as it settles out to get it off all that trub. About guaranteed you'll need a blow-off as well.

 

[pbowler]

cool thanks

 

[chillHayze]

This is one reason that you have to be a bit careful using this method. If you are always collecting those cells that are on the bottom, you are collecting the highest flocculating cells in the entire bunch. As you use the yeast a 3rd or 4th time, they will have mutated into a higher floccing yeast strain. You may not get the attenuation you had in the first batch because you are using only those cells that flocc out the best.

I am sure that after just a few generations, the mutation is minimal. However, if your last few beers from a given strain don't get you the FG's you are looking for, this is why.

Just a thought to consider.

Ah yes, they were talking about a similar thing on The Brewing Network a few weeks back. If you reuse the trub from the secondary it will be cleaner (less hop matter and break materials) but the yeast will be less floccuant and more attenuative (they hung in there longer - thats why there in the secondary). I wonder if a brewer alternated harvesting from the primary and secondary on subsequent pitchings of the same yeast if the characteristics would be less modified...

 

[boo boo]

And you can do what I do..http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/Homebrew/Freezing Yeast.htm .Avoids those huge yeast costs and you keep a decent library
of yeast on hand.

 

[God Emporer BillyBrew]

And you can do what I do..http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/Homebrew/Freezing%20Yeast.htm .Avoids those huge yeast costs and you keep a decent library
of yeast on hand.

I've thought about that before, but man, that looks like a ton of work. Is it as bad as it seems? (translation: tell me it's not as bad as it seems.)

 

[Sir Sudster]

Try a "Burton Union" for harvesting yeast. There is a good DIY design iarticle n September 2006 BYO magazine.

 

[alemonkey]

I used to worry about the cost of liquid yeast. But now, I figure:

1. It's no more than a six pack of good beer
2. I get at least 3 uses out of a pack, so it only works out to a couple bucks each.

 

[Beer Snob]

Thats why Ive been using dry yeast a majority of the time now. Anybody think the variety of dry yeast will eventually catch up with the liquid?

Well... if it's any indication... when I started around 91 or so... the dry yeast was basicly the same as it is now... not very comforting is it

 

[graemhoek]

I grow up batches and freeze them. I've been exchanging samples with friends....

 

[Mykel Obvious]

9 lb's assorted .99/lb $8.81
2 oz Hops @ $1.25 = $2.50
1 Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast smack Pack $7 freakin dollars.

the yeast is almost half the freakin cost?!?!


Thats it, I now have some Lager yeast from the pilsner still in the Secondary (not too late is it?)

the bottom of the Hogaarden that I saved, and this Irish ale yeast

Time to start searching the board for how to harvest yeast.

I'm searching as you read this, but feel free to point me in the right Direction.

Ok, just to put this in perspective...
assuming a 5 gallon batch:
Total cost = $18.31
cost per ounce of beer = $0.028609375
cost per 12 ounce bottle of beer = $0.3433125
cost per 6-pack of beer= $2.059875
hmmm... I don't think you can buy a sixer of BudMillerCoors for that, can ya???

I say use it two or three times if you want to brew a batch that falls into the same yeast strain (I often go months without using the same strain twice)... all in all it really isn't that much... just over a penny per ounce of beer per vial/smack pack of yeast

just my 1 oz worth


later,
mikey

 

[aweks]

I too am dismayed by the high price of liquid. That, coupled with the fact that I have no local HBS, and summertime temps are not kind to liquid yeast on a UPS truck for several days making the journey from Texas to Virginia, led me to use dry yeasts on almost every one of my first 12 batches (the exception was a wit that my friend cultured the yeast from a bottle of Legend (Richmond) wit). However, I have noticed that, while using dry yeast, it seems like there is a certain complexity that is lacking in many of my beers---especially the ones that are true to style and don't use any crazy adjuncts. So, given that the temps have started to fall, I ordered some Wyeast smackpacks from Austin and fermented my first batch (Dunkelweizen) with purchased liquid.

Even though there's still airlock activity, I already notice a difference. What might that be? Well, when you walk into my fermentation room, the whole room smells like ripe bananas---just like a great bavarian wiessebier! That comes from the yeasts, baby, that German Wheat Wyeast 3333 strain. Given that, prior to brewing, I was already a beer nerd/connoisseur, and have become accustomed to complex, character-filled beers, I don't think I can linger in dry-yeast-land anymore. So much of beer is the complexity offered by the yeast strain, and generic dry strains just don't do well enough. And even though it's not even done fermenting, the fact that my fermentation room smells like bananas is proof enough for me.

Yes, they're expensive, but I think, when this one is done, I'm going to clean and harvest the yeast for another wheat beer...perhaps an apricot hefe. If you can get 3 uses out of a $7 smackpack, then you bring your costs down to equal the dry packs.

I used a generic yeast for my first two wheat beers, the second of which turned out GREAT. The first was a watery, Bud Light tasting disapointment (poor mash efficiency). I then used Wyeast's Hefeweizen #3638 for my third wheat... using the same ingredients and painstakingly similar process to my GREAT second batch. That wheat beer ended up tasting like each glass (I keg) had about 6 orange slices in it. Overpowering fruit flavor! My coworkers and I still drank every last drop, of course.

Anyone else used this particular Wyeast before? Did you experience the same citrus flavors?

 

[Teedocious]

Here's what I do - I haven't bought yeast (except for new strains) in a year:

Take one pitchable tube of liquid yeast - make beer. From the primary harvest slurry into a couple of mason jars (sanitized please). I can easily fill two pint jars w/slurry. Store in fridge. (To actually harvest the yeast pour ~6-8 ounces of distilled H20 into carboy after you have racked beer, swirl it around to mix in the slurry & pour into jars through santizied funnel - wipe lip of jars & carboy w/alcohol to sanitize those to before pouring - simple.)

For my next batches I take a sanitary spoon & take a couple scoops of slurry from my mason jars - make a starter with those scoops & pitch into new batch.

I continue this process until I run out of the slurry from the original mason jars (generation 2) - on the last of those I reharvest the yeast from the primary and repeat the whole process - now I have two jars of generation 3 yeast. Repeat again. I have gone up to 4 generations without seeing any differences at all.

This method gets 25 uses or so (2 jars each generation w/3 uses per jar). If you harvest from every batch, instead of when your runout you can get 250 or so uses from one tube if you go through 4 generations. (1200 uses through 5 generations).

It takes an extra 5 minutes when racking from primary to secondary to do this. (I always make starters anyway - so no extra time taken there either...)

 

[Brewsmith]

My LHBS sells White Labs vials for $5.95, but they have a small section of the fridge for yeast past the "best by" date and they knock $1 off the price. The most I've got one past the date is about a month and a half. I just make sure to do a starter and it's ready to go. Combine that with reusing yeast and that's considerable savings.

 

[boo boo]

I've thought about that before, but man, that looks like a ton of work. Is it as bad as it seems? (translation: tell me it's not as bad as it seems.)

For me it was mainly a matter of not beig able to get fresh yeast on a whim.
Liquid yeast isn't available to me here now other that what I order on line.


Sure it takes a little time to prepare and to reuse but now I have the strain I need to brew a beer without waiting for an order to arrive. Besides it was fun
doing something brewing related and wondering if it would work as well as others would have you beleive.

Did it work for me? you betcha.

 

[disaffected]

Here's what I do - I haven't bought yeast (except for new strains) in a year:

Take one pitchable tube of liquid yeast - make beer. From the primary harvest slurry into a couple of mason jars (sanitized please). I can easily fill two pint jars w/slurry. Store in fridge. (To actually harvest the yeast pour ~6-8 ounces of distilled H20 into carboy after you have racked beer, swirl it around to mix in the slurry & pour into jars through santizied funnel - wipe lip of jars & carboy w/alcohol to sanitize those to before pouring - simple.)

For my next batches I take a sanitary spoon & take a couple scoops of slurry from my mason jars - make a starter with those scoops & pitch into new batch.

I continue this process until I run out of the slurry from the original mason jars (generation 2) - on the last of those I reharvest the yeast from the primary and repeat the whole process - now I have two jars of generation 3 yeast. Repeat again. I have gone up to 4 generations without seeing any differences at all.

This method gets 25 uses or so (2 jars each generation w/3 uses per jar). If you harvest from every batch, instead of when your runout you can get 250 or so uses from one tube if you go through 4 generations. (1200 uses through 5 generations).

It takes an extra 5 minutes when racking from primary to secondary to do this. (I always make starters anyway - so no extra time taken there either...)

That's a cogent explanation. Thanks!

My main reluctance in harvesting yeast has to do with the fact that the trub that is left over in the primary has a lot of material, hop and grain residue and cold break, that is not yeast and is smelly and gross. Ok, please forgive me for saying it is gross, but it just is.

The trub with the yeast in it is not just living cellular organisms, There is a great deal of dead organic matter that will rot and spoil over time, just like food that you leave in your fridge for too long. I don't really want to see it or smell it or leave it laying around in my fridge. I'd like to know how to get just the yeast without the rest of the trub, if that's possible. If not, I'll probably just buy fresh yeast every time.

 

[pbowler]

That's a cogent explanation. Thanks!

My main reluctance in harvesting yeast has to do with the fact that the trub that is left over in the primary has a lot of material, hop and grain residue and cold break, that is not yeast and is smelly and gross. Ok, please forgive me for saying it is gross, but it just is.

The trub with the yeast in it is not just living cellular organisms, There is a great deal of dead organic matter that will rot and spoil over time, just like food that you leave in your fridge for too long. I don't really want to see it or smell it or leave it laying around in my fridge. I'd like to know how to get just the yeast without the rest of the trub, if that's possible. If not, I'll probably just buy fresh yeast every time.

thats what I meant by "all that other Crap in the trub"

however if it works for folks, who am I to question.

as long as I can get two batvhes from the $7 yeast I'll be happy.

 

[sonvolt]

If you are making starters anyway, is there a problem with pitching only half a vial of White Labs into your starter and saving the other half for another brew. After all, if you let your starter ferment out all the way, you'll have the same amount of yeast cells in the end of that fermentation.

The only thing with this would be to consider expiration dates and ensure that the vial is sanitary as you pour out of it.

 

[Desert_Sky]

I know you don't need to, but on my last batch I made a starter from dried yeast. I had a 1/2 layer of yeast in a 1000ml erlenmeyer flask. I had 5.5 gallons take off in 3 hours. Not bad for .96 cents.

If you are making starters anyway, is there a problem with pitching only half a vial of White Labs into your starter and saving the other half for another brew.

I would just go ahead and make two at the same time, and put the extra one back in the fridge If you can.

 

[Teedocious]

That's a cogent explanation. Thanks!

My main reluctance in harvesting yeast has to do with the fact that the trub that is left over in the primary has a lot of material, hop and grain residue and cold break, that is not yeast and is smelly and gross. Ok, please forgive me for saying it is gross, but it just is.

The trub with the yeast in it is not just living cellular organisms, There is a great deal of dead organic matter that will rot and spoil over time, just like food that you leave in your fridge for too long. I don't really want to see it or smell it or leave it laying around in my fridge. I'd like to know how to get just the yeast without the rest of the trub, if that's possible. If not, I'll probably just buy fresh yeast every time.

Ok - couple ways to handle this.

Let's start with this: some trub is actually beneficial for yeast growth - trubless fermentations seem not to attenuate as well as fermentation with some trub (some trub not a ton of it.

I eliminate most trub before it ever gets to the primary. I use an immersion cooler in my kettle, after the wort is down to ~80F I stir the wort with by brew spoon for 2-3 minutes in a circular motion. After I stop stirring I let the wort in motion come to a stop naturally (a couple more minutes). This whirlpool accumulates a lot of trub & cold break into the center of the kettle. Then I siphon with my auto siphon from the outer edge of the kettle into my primary - this effectively removes a lot of trub. (After primary ferm. I generally have about 1/2 inch of trub in carboy.)

After I rack the beer into a secondary I have yeast cake & a bit of trub in the primary. I add some distilled water to this & swirl & put in mason jars. Now when you refigerate the jars you will see that the water, yeast, and trub (the little that remains) seperates nicely in the fridge (water on top, then yeast cake, then trub on bottom).

When I take a couple spoonfulls of the yeast cake to put into the starter, I can scoop directly from the yeast and avoid the trub (very very little gets into my starters).

This pretty much answers your question - even if you don't whirlpool & have a ton of trub in the primary you can just scoop from the yeast in the mason jars. Really easy. (If you have a ton of trub, you might want to add a bit more water when you harvest the yeast and fill three mason jars...)

Hope that helps. Don't let some trub scare you away from this - you won't have to buy yeast anymore... Couldn't be easier.

 

[disaffected]

Thanks, Teedocious. I'll try that when I rack my Firehouse Amber Ale to secondary. If I can just get past the initial repulsion, I should be able to manage it.

 

[pbowler]

I'll probably do my AG Stout Saturday, I'll give that a Try as thats the yeast in question...

 

[MorBro]

i gotta step in here.

a couple of things: if you have a brewery nearby, or even not so near if you plan in advance, take a couple of clean mason jars, ask the brewer, and we have never had one not fill our jars with yeast. that is probably 100 times as much yeast as in a smack pack.

i asked a brewer if there was a problem with overpitching so much yeast. he looked at me like i was crazy.

we regularly use the slurry from one batch (the primary) for the next batch. if we are going to a lighter beer, we will rack the beer off the trub in a few hours or overnight. a surprising amount of that stuff settles in a half hour.

but, then we got a dozen carboys, usually half of them working away.

it is also easy to wash yeast and save it for longer periods
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hbrew/hbyewash.htm

MorBro

 

[Teedocious]

I think it is theoretically possible to overpitch - but in reality a homebrewer is probably never going to have this problem. I generally use a 1L starter, start stepping it up a couple days before brewday - normally get visible fermentation in less than 3 hours - sometimes 2 hours.

For a really big beer I make a bigger starter - 2L or so & start a day earlier.

I've never got yeast from a brewer - but its a great idea - and you can't beat the price. (I've got 5 breweries within 10 miles - hmmm.)