HLT Temp control

[Onkel_Udo]

I understand the PID/SSR combo is the standard method for HLT/MLT temperature control. I understand the flexibility and the benefits. I have the wiring skills and have read the strings.

I guess I struggle to understand why there is not a "simple" $50, pre-built solution for those of us that want a controller that simply hits 170 degrees and maintains in our redneck rectangular cooler with a 2000 watt element.

So the question is, did I miss the Johnson Controls for the eHLT? Am I doomed to order $100+ of stuff to perform such a seemingly simple task?

I do have to admit, I LOVE the simplicity of an eHLT even if it means monitoring the temp and cycling the switch for the element.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not sure you're missing anything. The Johnson and Ranco just have the issue that they can only handle 10 amps of resistive load. Certainly you can use them with an external relay that can handle more power but now you're at $90 or so. Look at the Love Controls TS-13020 which can do 16 amps at 240v. $90, you add a box and cables.

I'd argue that the main benefit of the PID/SSR combo is two fold. One is that for the same price as above, you can get something that can do 30 amps and you can learn about PID which is a more precise way to control. PID, SSR, Temp Probe, heat sink, and project box is about $130 all in.

 

[jhoyda]

This with this is $45.08. You've got enough left from your $50 to get a burger and drink from McDonald's

 

[MuddyCreek]

Well, jhoyda that's a start.

Then you need the element, decent electrical cord, wiring connectors, a GFCI outlet or two at the very least, a project box of some kind, wire, ideally some quick connectors you can use to attach and reattach your thermoprobe. (Trust me it becomes a serious pain in the butt to connect and disconnect those probe leads every time you want to empty, clean etc.)

The fact is, E anything isn't cheap. It's the management paradigm.

Cheap
Fast
Good/Safe (safe added for our homebrew needs since we're dealing with 'lectricity')

Pick any combination of 2.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Onkel, the fact that getting into E brewing has kind of an expensive floor in the first place is a good part of the reason that a guy should kind of consider going all in and building a more complete system since you're already kind of dumping a good chunk of change into it anyway.

For example, with your HLT PID system, you could add one more thermoprobe, PID and a pump and with a bit of copper or SS tubing you could have yourself an EHerm system. It would cost you an additional $75 perhaps, but you'd have a system that perfectly controls your entire mash process. I would even argue that you could get rid of the HLT PID and just go with temp control of your mash. All you need to do is make sure your HLT is hotter than your Mash and the the herm pump and its thermo-probe and PID will take care of the rest.

Damn... Now I've gone and confoozled you.

 

[jhoyda]

I guess I struggle to understand why there is not a "simple" $50, pre-built solution for those of us that want a controller that simply hits 170 degrees and maintains in our redneck rectangular cooler with a 2000 watt element.

Hey, Muddy, please note my emphasis above. He asked for a $50 controller and I provided.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Well, jhoyda that's a start.
ideally some quick connectors you can use to attach and reattach your thermoprobe. (Trust me it becomes a serious pain in the butt to connect and disconnect those probe leads every time you want to empty, clean etc.)

The fact is, E anything isn't cheap. It's the management paradigm.

Cheap
Fast
Good/Safe (safe added for our homebrew needs since we're dealing with 'lectricity')

Pick any combination of 2.

You had me until the project box and quick connects because I have the rest already either in my light-switch model control or lying around the house from other projects.

And yes, I I have heard that nugget before.

So riddle me this, how do electric water heaters manage it AND still remain so cheap and simple enough for plumbers to figure them out? Their max setpoint is probably 160F but they even have a variable setpoint with a moron-proof dial.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Hey, Muddy, please note my emphasis above. He asked for a $50 controller and I provided.

I also asked for pre-built...

In the grand scheme of things I will stick to a lightswitch and an alarm on my electric meat thermometer. Granted, this means I have to be around to hear it but since I brew in front of my garage, I am probably going to working on a project anyway if I am already done milling my grain.

Since I have no reasonable timeframe, if ever, for making an actual electric brewery...this seems best. Too many other pressing projects (including running 50 amp 220 service to the garage) to even think about it if I still want tome to brew.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Onkel, the fact that getting into E brewing has kind of an expensive floor in the first place is a good part of the reason that a guy should kind of consider going all in and building a more complete system since you're already kind of dumping a good chunk of change into it anyway.

Exactly why I am not moving that direction any time soon. It isn't about money (I am financially in the best place ever to do this) it is about time. The more time spent working on the brewery, the less time breweing, building race car and working on my house...oh, and spending with the wife who has no interest in any of those hobbies.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Exactly why I am not moving that direction any time soon. It isn't about money (I am financially in the best place ever to do this) it is about time. The more time spent working on the brewery, the less time breweing, building race car and working on my house...oh, and spending with the wife who has no interest in any of those hobbies.

If money isn't a problem, then you could buy one of Kal's pre-built control panels. And there are other vendors out there too.

 

[biertourist]

For the HLT you really do want PID including a learning / fuzzy logic feature as all setups will heat and cool at different rates. (And you might decide to insulate it in the future or recirculate your liquid to heat faster and more evenly and the self learning feature is quite nice then.) -Even if there was a higher amp version of the Ranco it wouldn't be a great solution. Safe 240v electricity control is expensive.

The good news is that you don't need all that crap for the boil kettle and there's a new great cheap option: http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html $31! Bam!

If you're going to do single temp infusion mashes and have an insulated mash tun; you can get away for WAY cheaper than most people on HBT. The HLT control is not the place to cheap out, though. (Even though heating water is not very glamorous.)


Adam

 

[Onkel_Udo]

For the HLT you really do want PID including a learning / fuzzy logic feature as all setups will heat and cool at different rates. Safe 240v electricity control is expensive.

If you're going to do single temp infusion mashes and have an insulated mash tun; you can get away for WAY cheaper than most people on HBT. The HLT control is not the place to cheap out, though. (Even though heating water is not very glamorous.)


Adam

I guess one of us is confused here (probably me). I am not using 240 and do not have access to it anywhere in the house. It will be many moons until it is run to the garage (but it will be!). My HLT is a rectangular cooler with 110V 2000W element.

Also, my HLT heats water to 170 degrees...then I drain to the MLT (heavily insulated keegle). First is for the dough in and then for the sparge. If I choose to do multi-step mash (which is rare) I will do a decoction or add a measured amount of boiling water. I fail to see where logic (fuzzy or Spock-like) is required for such a mundane task.

The eHLT just replaces the third Keggle I used to have in the three-keggle, three burner gravity system I used for years. Now that storage space is more of an issue that before, my three-tier is an OSB and 2 x 4 tower on casters that folds out to be tier one and two with the long-legged burner being tier three. All of the above except the propane tank store in a less-than 4 sq ft corner of my garage. No pumps, no temp control, no HERMs, etc, etc. I was shooting for a way to set the timer for my HLT to turn on at 4 am without fear of overshooting and warping the cooler if I run 15 minutes late getting out there because my coffee just tasted too darned good that morning.

 

[ChuckO]

So riddle me this, how do electric water heaters manage it AND still remain so cheap and simple enough for plumbers to figure them out? Their max setpoint is probably 160F but they even have a variable setpoint with a moron-proof dial.

Electric water heaters work with thermostats that hold maybe 3-5 degree temperature differentials from a set point that might be close to what the dial says, or not. That's why the controls can be made for the price and with simplicity of use.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Electric water heaters work with thermostats that hold maybe 3-5 degree temperature differentials from a set point that might be close to what the dial says, or not. That's why the controls can be made for the price and with simplicity of use.

That makes sense. For doing the strike water this would be an acceptible variance because I normally overshoot my temp to pre-heat the mash tun and let it cool to strike temp. For the sparge water, not so much.

 

[67cougargt]

What about this I purchased this on eBay for $55 to use for my hot liquor tank? I haven't used it yet does have 20 amp relays.

Display Item:* Control Products TC-9102D-HV Dual Stage High Voltage Digital Temperature Controller

Model:* TC-9102D-HV

Condition:* Excellent

Color:* Black

Retail Price:* $110.00

Bright 4-digit LED display that is perfect for all light conditions
Replaces Ranco ETC and Johnson Controls A419
Dual 20 amp relays
PTC temperature sensor included (-67 to 302 degrees F) with optional RTD sensor available (0 to 600 degrees f)
Easy programming with calibration and lock-out mode standard
The TC-9102 series digital temperature controller offers a very broad range of features that enable distributors and OEMs to stock fewer products and meet the needs of many different applications. Applications include: fermentation control, HVAC, food service, industrial, commercial, agriculture, animal confinement, heat, cooling, combination heat/cool, modulating fans, greenhouses, etc.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Cougar...thanks for that. While researching what you bought, I found this:

http://www.dorkfood.com/dp/B0088OTON4#specifications

Lot more than $50 and not rated for 20 amps (only 15 amp) but it actually is what I was hoping existed somewhere. Now I know that these wierd Sous vide folks (says the homebrewer) have similar needs. Gives me a second avenue of research.

Brewed again this weekend with my bastardized set-up. Still have to move EVERYTHING to 10 gal batches (mash tun is just too empty) after I use up the last 5-gal kit I had but the thrid run of the system went well. I missed my mash temp initially by 3 degrees because I chickenned out and doughed in at too low a temp (overshot last time) but brought it back up with a quick addition of 2 qt's of boiling water. Lost 2 degrees over 60 minutes so I am going to up the insulation of the MLT one layer and add a foam disk to the top of the keggle for temp retention.

Even with all those errors, hit 77% efficiency which is 2% above my target.

Still working on my chilling capability and my hop/trub screen.

Chilling works well until I hit 100 degrees so I need to add more ice to my pre-chiller (old tiny immersion chiller from a fellow homebrewer) at the end of the chilling but I had run out.

My hop screen in my boiler is a SS scrubby that goes over the end of my dip tube which goes into my 1/2 valve. I remember now why I used to buy bulk leaf hops. The pellet mush combined with the rest of the cold break plug it solid at times. I love the level of filtration I get and every last drop of useable wort is extracted from the boil kettle but the hops I have now will be the last pellets I use unless in an emergency I have to buy locally.

 

[Bobby_M]

If 15amps is enough for you, here's the same thing is the dorkfood unit for $48. http://www.climatedoctors.com/RANCO-ETC-111000-Digital-Cold-Temperature-Control

 

[Onkel_Udo]

If 15amps is enough for you, here's the same thing is the dorkfood unit for $48. http://www.climatedoctors.com/RANCO-ETC-111000-Digital-Cold-Temperature-Control

Makes me want to replace my 2000W element with a 1500 down the road. Thanks for the link!