High trub - low efficiency

[karch]

Hello everyone,

I brewed for the first time over the weekend in about 10 months. I ended up with a large amount of trub (~1 gallon's worth). I used a wilserbrewer grain bag and hop bag. I even put the hop bag over the tube from the ball valve to try and filter it again on is way to the fermentor.

According to beersmith, I got a mash efficiency of 65% and brewhouse efficiency of 64%. Is the amount of trub correlated to the poor efficiency numbers in any way? What can I do to decrease trub and increase efficiency?

Here is the recipe and numbers for information purposes:

10 lbs - 2 row
1 lb - Cara-pils
1 lb - Crystal 60L
1 lb - Munich Malt 15L
1/2 lb - Honey Malt
1 oz simcoe pellets
3 oz citra pellets
S-04 yeast
I've another oz of citra to dry hop with in a bit.

I started with 8 gall of water, mashed for 75 mins at 152 F and mashed out at 168 for 10 mins. My pre-boil volume was 7.4 gall and 1.044 SG. After boiling, but, still in the kettle, I had 5.5 gall with a 1.058 SG. I assume if I adjusted volume for the amount of trub I got, my brewhouse efficiency would drop even further.

Thanks for any help and recommendations.

 

[LLBeanJ]

The amount of trub is not bad and will compact further over time, probably to less than half of what you're seeing now. I do 6 gallon batches into the fermenter and dump it all in and I generally have about .5 gal of trub.

Beersmith's calculations for BH efficiency are based on OG and how much wort actually makes it into the fermenter, so BH efficiency will indeed drop if you leave any wort behind in the kettle, so you'll see higher efficiency numbers if you dump it all in the fermenter and will decrease if you leave any behind. However, you should be able to bring that number up into the mid-70s/low-80s with a fine crush and the addition of a small sparge step.

Judging by your low mash efficiency, I'd say you need to evaluate your crush in order to improve it, and in doing so your BH efficiency will also improve.

 

[karch]

Okay, great. I usually get it double crushed, but the shop was super busy and only had one guy working everything, so I felt bad tying up more of his time. I suppose it does make that much of a difference.

 

[flars]

Might be worth while to ask at this shop if you can run the mill to save them time. They may be fine with this after they weigh out the grains.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I suppose it does make that much of a difference.

Crush can make a huge difference, say between low sixties and high eighties efficiency.

Don't fret the trub, it is mostly harmless proteins....think of egg whites, it will settle and compact in the fermenter and have little to zero impact on your finished beer.

 

[karch]

Don't fret the trub, it is mostly harmless proteins....think of egg whites, it will settle and compact in the fermenter and have little to zero impact on your finished beer.

I'm not worried about it impacting the beer other than it absorbing that precious liquid. I suppose I'm just greedy.

 

[doug293cz]

A quick mash/lauter simulation using your numbers indicates a conversion efficiency of about 80%. With a full volume mash and fine crush, you can easily get conversion efficiencies of 95 - 100%. Your lauter efficiency was about 83%, which is very good for a no-sparge process. As others have said, look at getting a finer crush, and making sure you stir well at dough-in and prior to pulling the bag at the end of the mash. You can actually monitor your conversion efficiency by measuring the SG of the wort in the mash using the methods here.

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

I'm not worried about it impacting the beer other than it absorbing that precious liquid. I suppose I'm just greedy.

Once that break material settles it will compact into a layer of about 1/2 inch thick, perhaps a little less if you give it enough time. When it does it will leave the beer available to siphon. It really isn't absorbing the liquid, just borrowing it.

 

[karch]

Here it is about 3 days after brewing. The trub has settled down a bit. Fermentation seems to be going along nicely. I'll begin to take some samples in about three weeks. Thanks to everyone for the tidbits of advice.

 

[kh54s10]

The amount of trub and efficiency are mostly unrelated.
If you want to decrease the amount of beer loss to trub, bag your hops.

Why are you going to wait 3 weeks to take some samples? I would start in about 11 more days. You could even go sooner than that. About 7-10 days after brew day. I go 2 weeks. When I started there were 2 camps. 1) Go until FG then package and, 2) you must go a month or more. I split the difference at 3 weeks. I then drank my pipeline dry and did a few at 2 weeks. I found no difference so I only go longer than 2 weeks due to procrastination.

 

[RM-MN]

While I often wait 3 to 4 weeks to bottle I have bottled in as little as one week and as long as 9 weeks. They all have made beer. The one week batches had a lot of sediment in the bottles. The latest couple of 10 day batches had little sediment and were ready to drink fairly quickly. I sampled on at one week in the bottle and it was OK but a little low on head formation.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Here it is about 3 days after brewing. The trub has settled down a bit. Fermentation seems to be going along nicely. I'll begin to take some samples in about three weeks. Thanks to everyone for the tidbits of advice.

Three days post brew? I don't see any kreusen or kreusen ring? Did you hit peak fermentation? Looks stagnant to me, but I guess pictures can lie lol.

Looks stalled to me???

 

[jschein]

Three days post brew? I don't see any kreusen or kreusen ring? Did you hit peak fermentation? Looks stagnant to me, but I guess pictures can lie lol.

Looks stalled to me???

Only yeast rafts on top, no kreusen to me too

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It doesn't appear to be fermenting to me either.

 

[karch]

I was finally able to take a reading after a busy week. Hydrometer says 1.022 but still no krausen production. Not sure why. There was a decent amount of starsan bubbles left in the carboy when I put the wort in it. Could that have anything to do with it?

 

[lawrenjl]

I did the opposite of most to solve my problems.....I opened my mill to .045 and this did a few things: trub was reduced to the same levels as batch sparging and eliminated almost all the dough balls without stirring. I took gravity samples during the 60 minute mash, after stirring like crazy, and hit my numbers when BS was set to 80% efficiency.

 

[eadavis80]

1.022 is a little high - depends on the mash temp and ingredients. Ideally you'd probably like your beer at least as low as 1.015, but it's only been a week so it could drop a few more points. What temp did you mash at and ferment at? I don't see Star San having any impact on your gravity readings.

 

[karch]

Yeah, I know it's still a bit high. I figured after one week it was still fermenting. I took a sample again today and it was still 1.022. I pitched yeast again to see if I could try and get it down a little further.

I mashed at 152 for 75 minutes.

 

[C-Rider]

Okay, great. I usually get it double crushed, but the shop was super busy and only had one guy working everything, so I felt bad tying up more of his time. I suppose it does make that much of a difference.

I do small 2 gal batches and grind in a blender to flour. It takes about 6 min to do say 5 lbs one coffee cup at a time. You can do that 13/5 lbs in about 18 min at home. Just my 2 cents.

 

[C-Rider]

While I often wait 3 to 4 weeks to bottle I have bottled in as little as one week and as long as 9 weeks. They all have made beer. The one week batches had a lot of sediment in the bottles. The latest couple of 10 day batches had little sediment and were ready to drink fairly quickly. I sampled on at one week in the bottle and it was OK but a little low on head formation.

I laid off for about 2 months so my fridge is kind of empty. I usually have a full pipeline and and in no rush to bottle. I always wait 3 weeks at a minimum and most of the time 4 weeks just because I'm in no rush. After 4 weeks w/nothing added to clear and no cold crashing my light ales are super clear. I still believe time is your friend.

 

[karch]

I do small 2 gal batches and grind in a blender to flour. It takes about 6 min to do say 5 lbs one coffee cup at a time. You can do that 13/5 lbs in about 18 min at home. Just my 2 cents.

Do you BIAB? Does the flour get through the fabric and into the wort?

 

[kh54s10]

Do you BIAB? Does the flour get through the fabric and into the wort?

I do some BIAB. Yes, flour gets through the fabric. But unless it is a huge amount that is not something to worry about. I get almost the same when doing my traditional 3 vessel brewing.

You can leave a little in the brew kettle, and the rest will compact on the bottom of your fermenter.

I use 5 gallon paint strainer bags to contain my hops, so I don't get a very big trub layer in my fermenters.

 

[C-Rider]

Do you BIAB? Does the flour get through the fabric and into the wort?

Yes I BIAB and no the floour doesn't get thru. Because I'm using 2 gal buckets I do strain the wart so I can get as much wort into the fermenter as I can.