High pH water.. where to get Acid

[Mirilis]

So im working on water chemistry at the moment. On the spreadsheets I just fill in my water quantity all as mash water with 0 sparge water since its all in my kettle to begin with.

The problem is the city water guy said that our tap water is right at about 9.3.. if im going to brew even a dark beer I need to get that down. I was thinking that Phosphoric acid would be what I want as I hear that Lactic does funny things to the mash.

Are they any local box stores I can get phosphoric acid from? CVS, Walmart, Lowes or something?

 

[Dolomieu]

Man that seems high. I know we have a lot of lime stone but i would think that number would be closer to 8.3. Though your local guy would know better than I. It just so happens that I will be around that area the first week of February and I'll have a pH meter with me.

Not sure about any big box stores but great fermentations has phosphoric acid. They aren't to far away, so the shipping would probably be pretty quick.

http://shop.greatfermentations.com/...entration-4-oz/beer-brewing-fining-water-chem

 

[mabrungard]

Water pH is meaningless for brewing. What matters most is the hardness and alkalinity of the water. Those factors have the major effect on mashing pH. You need to find that information out before delving into brewing water chemistry.

 

[DonnieZ]

You need a full water report before you can start making meaningful adjustments to your water. Any advice given would just be a shot in the dark. TBH, the original pH of your water matters little - it's buffering capacity of the water that makes the difference.

Also remember you can always brew with a mixture of your tap water and distilled / RO water to achieve a certain water profile, or make it easier to achieve the desired profile by using the minerals that you have in your tap water.

 

[Mirilis]

Total hardness 140, Alkalinity 84... Calcium 31, Mg 15

 

[mabrungard]

With that level of alkalinity, you should have no fear of lactic acid. You would have to add a lot more than your alkalinity demands to incur taste effects.

Assuming that the sodium, sulfate, and chloride levels for that water are not too high, it looks like it should be a decent starting point for brewing.

 

[Mirilis]

I used your spreadsheet to input some of these numbers and to get the carbonate and bicarbonate levels and its great... unfortunately until I get my SWMBO to let me send out to ward I have to stick with what I know and that is it.

He told me sodium was probably pretty low (so I just put 10ppm as a wild guess).

For Sulfate / Chloride i dont know what to put so its at 0.. My ion balance is thrown way out of wack though because of it. If there was an easy way to accurately guess either one say sulfate, then I could just bump chloride levels until my ion balance is within range.

 

[emyers]

If your messing with pH you need a water report and pH paper or a pH meter to make any proper adjustments. Also watch the YouTube john palmer videos on water.

 

[Mirilis]

I have most of what I need from my report.. A lot of people wanted to talk about it.. But the op is asking if there's a place I can go to buy the acid locally without the internet.

 

[mabrungard]

Other than a local homebrew shop, I'm not sure of a source for food-grade acids to use in brewing.

 

[beersk]

Water pH is meaningless for brewing. What matters most is the hardness and alkalinity of the water. Those factors have the major effect on mashing pH. You need to find that information out before delving into brewing water chemistry.

But what is it that drives that pH that high in the water? My water pH is somewhere around 9 also, but the alkalinity is low. Just curious as to how it could be so high with so few minerals present.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] But the op is asking if there's a place I can go to buy the acid locally without the internet.

You're the OP

Other than a local homebrew shop, I'm not sure of a source for food-grade acids to use in brewing.

Duda Diesel sells 85% Food-grade Phosphoric Acid by the Quart and Gallon. I split a gallon with a bunch of other brewers in our group buy, so we're all set for our acid demand till 2020 or thereabout.

I diluted some to a working solution of 25%, so the measuring is easier with smaller error.

I've only seen Lactic Acid at 88% in the brew stores, and have used that for about 2 years. Their Phosphoric is typically only 10%, so you need to add quite a bit from a small bottle. Not cost effective.

 

[Mirilis]

Do you notice taste difference when using Lactic vs Phosphoric?

 

[mabrungard]

Water utilities with low mineralization commonly inject a small amount of lime into their water supply to increase pH and move the calcium saturation index higher so that the water is not corrosive and a minor layer of calcium carbonate will coat the interior of their pipes. pH of 9 is that odd.

With alkalinity of 84 ppm as CaCO3, there is little chance that the needed lactic acid additions would affect flavor. Southern Bavarian breweries deal with this level of alkalinity and there are no odd flavors in the beers I've tasted from there. You are OK to use lactic and it is the preferred acid when brewing German styles.

 

[Homercidal]

For comparison, my alkalinity is like 186...

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you notice taste difference when using Lactic vs Phosphoric?

If there is a difference I can't detect it, they both taste metallic to me once they reach my perception level. For example a working solution of Starsan tastes metallic to me.

Now Lactic has a lower taste threshold than phosphoric, and can become more noticeable quicker, particularly in beer. Reason is, Phosphoric is more neutral flavor wise as it blends together with the already present phosphates from mashing. Wort also contains levels of lactic acid (50-300ppm), from the grain. If it's already high, an acidification addition could possibly surpass the taste threshold of 400ppm (this varies by individual).

I'm clueless how to determine Lactic acid contributions from the grist, but adding 5 ml of 88% Lactic acid to 5 gallons of my softish brewing water does not raise any flags in my mouth.

Lots of reading on Bru'n water.

 

[Mirilis]

Southern Bavarian breweries deal with this level of alkalinity and there are no odd flavors in the beers I've tasted from there. You are OK to use lactic and it is the preferred acid when brewing German styles.

Its funny you mention that because I brew a lot of German lagers... i mean i got a Schwartzbier and Dunkel fermenting, and Helles on tap.

I built my Helles water from RO so it turned out great but lately I've been using my tap water and I thought my pH strips were bad because they didn't even change color.. but i put it in my mouth and it did.. so that's why I started looking into my tap water chemistry.. with 9.3pH and my Alkalinity level I'm sure my IPA didn't get to the optimal pH in the Mash.

I mean the beer still came out pretty good but I bet it would have been even better had the Mash pH been right on target.

 

[Dolomieu]

Water utilities with low mineralization commonly inject a small amount of lime into their water supply to increase pH and move the calcium saturation index higher so that the water is not corrosive and a minor layer of calcium carbonate will coat the interior of their pipes. pH of 9 is that odd.

With alkalinity of 84 ppm as CaCO3, there is little chance that the needed lactic acid additions would affect flavor. Southern Bavarian breweries deal with this level of alkalinity and there are no odd flavors in the beers I've tasted from there. You are OK to use lactic and it is the preferred acid when brewing German styles.

That interesting info. I don't do much with drinking water systems, so this stuff really is out of my wheel house. Waste water and limnology is more my thing. Reconstituting control waters is closest experience I have. So thanks for sharing.

 

[helibrewer]

So im working on water chemistry at the moment. On the spreadsheets I just fill in my water quantity all as mash water with 0 sparge water since its all in my kettle to begin with.

The problem is the city water guy said that our tap water is right at about 9.3.. if im going to brew even a dark beer I need to get that down. I was thinking that Phosphoric acid would be what I want as I hear that Lactic does funny things to the mash.

Are they any local box stores I can get phosphoric acid from? CVS, Walmart, Lowes or something?

You can get Phosphoric from Duda Diesel or Vinquiry Wine Labs Enartis-Vinquiry, Duda Diesel, Lactic should be available at your LHBS.

 

[emyers]

Back to the discussion, if you don't know your actual mash ph what good is the acid?

 

[Mirilis]

I have colorphast strips ... and they are telling me im not in the range at all on my mashes