High Gravity Beer / # of packs to pitch

[RedBarnGuy]

Hi everyone. I'm brewing a 1.086 gravity beer this weekend. The Mr. Malty calculator says that I need to pitch 3 packs of yeast if I don't have a starter. Alternatively, it indicates that 4.63 liters of start would be required. Is that right? Seems like a massive amount of starter to me.

This time around I'll probably just pitch 3 packs, but I'm looking for advice on how to make starters for high gravity beers going forward. Almost 5 liters of starter seems insane to me.

Thanks,
RBG

 

[user 84304]

What's the style and what kind of FG are you shooting for? It could be correct, truthfully. Also depends on the yeast. Wha yeast is it, as well?

 

[Double_D]

I make all of mine the same:
250g dme mixed with 1 pint of water then boiled. Then I add another pint of ice. Pour two yeast packs into a quart mason jar and fill to within an inch of the top with your simple wort. Aerate this as neatly as possible. I pour out the remaing ounce or so of wort from the pot I used to boil it in and pass it back and fourth until I build up a good head on the starter. Let this sit 8-12 hours. This works for everything up to 1.124 (the strongest beer I make) with results like this:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/vigorous-fermentation-w-mess-260651/ a little more often than I'd like. Btw, I took this picture 9.5 hours after pitching.

 

[Double_D]

Oh and I do all ten gallon batches so regardless of what you're doing it will suffice. 4.63 liters is way to big. I don't care what the fancy program said. A quart is all you need.

 

[dcp27]

what yeast are you using? if its wyeast 1056/WLP001, just use 2 packs of S-05 instead. same yeast, no starter, and cheaper.

I'd give these two articles about starters a read:
http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

and then this one, about big beers:
http://beerdujour.com/Howtobrewabigbeer.htm

 

[RedBarnGuy]

Thanks for the replies. The beer is Northern Brewer's 115th Dream Hopbursted IPA, which does use the 1056 American Ale yeast. I'm not sure about the final gravity...I don't see anywhere on the Northern Brewer website where it indicates what I should expect for that.

Also, I haven't used dry yeast before because I've seen comments to the effect that it is less dependable than liquid. DCP, sounds like you've had some good success w/ Safale?

 

[Germelli1]

You really should always make a starter for liquid yeast. Dry yeast doesn't need a starter and is a beast. If it is the same yeast as the liquid you were considering, I don't see how it would be more or less dependable

 

[dcp27]

Also, I haven't used dry yeast before because I've seen comments to the effect that it is less dependable than liquid. DCP, sounds like you've had some good success w/ Safale?

yup, great stuff. S-05 is the exact same strain as 1056, but at a higher population and cheaper cost (there is a subtle difference in attenuation & flavor tho). if you're going with a neutral yeast like chico, I don't see the point in spending the extra money on liquid, esp when you need to make a starter.

 

[bob1852]

4.63 liters is way to big. I don't care what the fancy program said. A quart is all you need.

Evidence?

The info I've seen presented by Chris White, Jamil, and others have some really good data to show that a 1.5L starter is optimal.

 

[the_Sliver]

Hmm... the owner of my LHBS sold me a Belgian Tripel LME that came with a packet of Cooper's yeast. He didn't say anything about having to buy more packets.

If the OG is expected to be around 1.076, should I be adding another packet?

 

[Double_D]

I make all of mine the same:
250g dme mixed with 1 pint of water then boiled. Then I add another pint of ice. Pour two yeast packs into a quart mason jar and fill to within an inch of the top with your simple wort. Aerate this as neatly as possible. I pour out the remaing ounce or so of wort from the pot I used to boil it in and pass it back and fourth until I build up a good head on the starter. Let this sit 8-12 hours. This works for everything up to 1.124 (the strongest beer I make) with results like this:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/vigorous-fermentation-w-mess-260651/ a little more often than I'd like. Btw, I took this picture 9.5 hours after pitching.

This picture is my evidence. Please check the link.

 

[Double_D]

Evidence?

The info I've seen presented by Chris White, Jamil, and others have some really good data to show that a 1.5L starter is optimal.

I don't know if I'm reading this wrong but the starter presented by these people is a third the size of what the op is talking about. And this starter is only about a pint larger than I'm suggesting.

 

[bob1852]

My only point being that pitch counts and fermentation temps are critically important to making excellent beers.

Sure, you can get vigorous signs of fermentation by using bread yeast and fermenting at 85, but that doesn't discount the fact that a lot of research has gone into what ideal pitch counts are, and that it taken into effect in mrmalty's calculator.

 

[dcp27]

Hmm... the owner of my LHBS sold me a Belgian Tripel LME that came with a packet of Cooper's yeast. He didn't say anything about having to buy more packets.

If the OG is expected to be around 1.076, should I be adding another packet?

IIRC, coopers dry yeast is only 7g, so you'll need 2. check this in the future: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

BTW, your LHBS owner is an a$$ for giving you a non-belgian strain for a Tripel. Belgian yeast is what makes a belgian brew.

 

[user 84304]

My only point being that pitch counts and fermentation temps are critically important to making excellent beers.

Sure, you can get vigorous signs of fermentation by using bread yeast and fermenting at 85, but that doesn't discount the fact that a lot of research has gone into what ideal pitch counts are, and that it taken into effect in mrmalty's calculator.

+1 to that.

Also, while I agree that 1L or 1.5L is probably sufficient, I see no major evidence stating that number might not be correct. I'm just sayin'....

 

[Double_D]

My only point being that pitch counts and fermentation temps are critically important to making excellent beers.

Sure, you can get vigorous signs of fermentation by using bread yeast and fermenting at 85, but that doesn't discount the fact that a lot of research has gone into what ideal pitch counts are, and that it taken into effect in mrmalty's calculator.

Very true. I agree whole heartedly. The problem is I just plugged in the numbers for my winter warmer. Beginning sg 1.124 it says I need 4 packs of yeast and a starter that is 12.51 L. I do all my fermentation in a refrigerator as my picture in the link shows with a Ranco ETC set to 67 with a two degree differential.

The only way for this to make sense to me is if I started at least 3 days a head so this could ferment and then settle out. Which is why I do the starter the way I do.. the night before I want to pitch. This way I have an active starter. And my lag time is only about 5 hours. Mrmalty may be right in the technical sense but mine works. Every time.

 

[Yooper]

Hmm... the owner of my LHBS sold me a Belgian Tripel LME that came with a packet of Cooper's yeast. He didn't say anything about having to buy more packets.

If the OG is expected to be around 1.076, should I be adding another packet?

IIRC, coopers dry yeast is only 7g, so you'll need 2. check this in the future: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

BTW, your LHBS owner is an a$$ for giving you a non-belgian strain for a Tripel. Belgian yeast is what makes a belgian brew.

First, throw away the Cooper's yeast. It's junk anyway, and only 7 grams of junk at that.

Secondly, for a Belgian, you'll want Belgian yeast and a large starter. You'll need either three packages of a quality (White Labs or Wyeast) Belgian yeast, or one package and enough DME to make a good starter for it.

 

[Yooper]

Mrmalty may be right in the technical sense but mine works. Every time.

"Working" and "optimal" and not the same thing. You may find that underpitching leads to off-flavors and stressed yeast.

While it works for you, it probably isn't giving you the best beer you can have. I don't know of one commercial brewery that underpitches and is pleased with the results. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato.
Underpitching will "work" in that the beer will ferment. But optimum results come from optimum pitching rates.

 

[bob1852]

Which is why I do the starter the way I do.. the night before I want to pitch. This way I have an active starter. And my lag time is only about 5 hours. Mrmalty may be right in the technical sense but mine works. Every time.

I completely understand where you're coming from.

But, the yeast talks at NHC this year were a real eye opener for me.

Lag time, active starters, vigorous fermentations, etc. don't always mean the best possible beer.

I trust the phD's that are doing wort & yeast science v. what I used to do (which is similar to what your technique is - and I've gotten banged by BJCP judges over beers that I think are great and all of their comments come back to improper yeast pitch rates; which I found fascinating).

Not ripping on you, not asking you to change your technique, but the general comment of "do this, it works for me" won't always make the best possible beer.

 

[certaut]

did a 1.079 (oops on grain weight)with 1 pack of notty, turned out fine ABV 9.19%
never did it again (don't like waking with Irish flu)

 

[seabass07]

Hi everyone. I'm brewing a 1.086 gravity beer this weekend. The Mr. Malty calculator says that I need to pitch 3 packs of yeast if I don't have a starter. Alternatively, it indicates that 4.63 liters of start would be required. Is that right? Seems like a massive amount of starter to me.

This time around I'll probably just pitch 3 packs, but I'm looking for advice on how to make starters for high gravity beers going forward. Almost 5 liters of starter seems insane to me.

Thanks,
RBG

Did you enter simple starter or intermittently shaken? There is a huge difference between the two option on your final starter volume.

 

[BillyBock]

I've done 1.080 stouts with one packet of Nottingham that took it down to 1.015-1.019. Pitch at a higher temp (70-80F) with a clean dry yeast (US-05 or Nott) and aerate. Done deal.

 

[dcp27]

Pitch at a higher temp (70-80F) with a clean dry yeast (US-05 or Nott) and aerate.

Don't do this. Pitching notty over 70F is notorious for undesired flavors. I wouldn't recommend pitching anything over 70F, unless its a saison, brett, or bugs. Belgian & wheat strains will probably be ok too, but anything else you're just asking for fusels. Always start lower and ramp up, especially in bigger beers

 

[Double_D]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-starter-size-262406/#post3166622


I don't really want to hijack this thread so lets talk more about it here