I am just polling the community for opinions on an idea I had. I'm not sure if it's feasible, but is anybody out there mashing in a cooler and recirculating their mash through an electric HLT? Can anyone think of a reason that wouldn't work? It seems like a way to maybe gradually purchase the equipment needed for a full HERMS set up. Along the same lines, could you just manually cycle the HLT element to eliminate the need for the PID controller immediately? Thanks much for your thoughts!
HERMS using cooler, no PID
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iijakii
Well-Known Member
Question -- what benefit do you see HERMS bringing to the table if you're using a cooler? You really shouldn't be having heat loss issues in an insulated mash tun.
You could do the things you're suggesting, it just doesn't make much sense. It won't add much benefit to your brewday besides more hassle and expense.
You could do the things you're suggesting, it just doesn't make much sense. It won't add much benefit to your brewday besides more hassle and expense.
I see what your saying. My intention is to eventually switch to a full HERMS set up, just don't want to drop all the bank at once. That, I suppose, is the prime benefit. There is a probably a very small boost in mash efficiency from recirculating, by eliminating temperature stratifications within the tun. Also, it takes a little bit of the guess work out of heating strike water, and hitting mash steps, or atleast that's what I'm hoping.
iijakii
Well-Known Member
But if you aren't wanting to spring for PID control then you won't see any better temperature accuracy etc. You'd probably wind up hurting your mash temps, to be honest, by having a constant balancing act with your baby-sitting HERMS elements.
It is probably worth experimenting with the idea. I hope so, as I am in the process now of rigging a HERMS exchanger into my HLT and a solenoid valve onto my HLT burner. I intend to have it all installed and debugged in time for my next brew (good thing I have 25 gallons in the fermenters now - I can take my time!)
Cooler mash tuns have their positive features. I use one myself. What they lack is flexibility. If your estimate of the strike water temp is off, it can take a lot of fiddling to get the mash to where it should be. That happened to me on my first batch with the cooler. After that, I knew how it would act and haven't had an issue since - but that time I sure wished I had a heat exchanger in place! There's no easy way to step mash, or to mash out, or to ensure consistent mash temps throughout the vessel.
Adding even a primitive HERMS setup provides for mash recirculation, which should help equalize temps within the mash. There's also the possibility of step mashing and/or mashout if it can ramp the MLT temps fast enough. And if you ever do miss the mashin temp it provides a way to fix that.
Cooler mash tuns have their positive features. I use one myself. What they lack is flexibility. If your estimate of the strike water temp is off, it can take a lot of fiddling to get the mash to where it should be. That happened to me on my first batch with the cooler. After that, I knew how it would act and haven't had an issue since - but that time I sure wished I had a heat exchanger in place! There's no easy way to step mash, or to mash out, or to ensure consistent mash temps throughout the vessel.
Adding even a primitive HERMS setup provides for mash recirculation, which should help equalize temps within the mash. There's also the possibility of step mashing and/or mashout if it can ramp the MLT temps fast enough. And if you ever do miss the mashin temp it provides a way to fix that.
iijakii
Well-Known Member
I never had stratification in my cooler. I'm wondering if you aren't mixing enough? And to your heat-exchanger scenario -- if you overshoot your strike temp a lot, running it through a HERMS coil at mash temps isn't going to cool it down. You'd be better off just stirring while adding small amounts of cold water.
You are right about correcting an undershot on strike temp. But then again, is that better than just preheating the mash tun and calculating a good strike temp with Beersmith etc? Once you learn how to calculate it's easy to nail everytime.
Not trying to shoot down your dreams of HERMS here, but I just don't see much point in doing it half way. I've thought about it before. Simplistic setups or complex ones, there's really no point in being in-between.
You are right about correcting an undershot on strike temp. But then again, is that better than just preheating the mash tun and calculating a good strike temp with Beersmith etc? Once you learn how to calculate it's easy to nail everytime.
Not trying to shoot down your dreams of HERMS here, but I just don't see much point in doing it half way. I've thought about it before. Simplistic setups or complex ones, there's really no point in being in-between.
Well, coolers are used because they are inexpensive and hold temperature well. HERMS are used because you can control temperature up or down and hold it very accurately. No matter what coolers will lose temperature overtime. Stainless steel mesh tons will also lose temperature but faster so need the offset of HERMS or RIMS. So combining the two is not really a crazy idea but does seem a little bit unnecessary. My guess is if you get the cooler cheap enough then using it as your initial mash tun is reasonable before you have the money to get a legitimate one.
I think the real key is recirculation as it will always eliminate stratification. So whether or not you use a cooler is less important than if you have a pump or not.
-BD
I think the real key is recirculation as it will always eliminate stratification. So whether or not you use a cooler is less important than if you have a pump or not.
-BD
I use a RIMS with a cooler and PID. When I did not have the PID tuned I saw 6+ deg fluctuations. With the great insulation of a cooler and the fluctuations I saw I would say you need a PID tuned more than a system that does not have as much insulation. I choose the cooler idea so the element would not run as often for energy savings and less chance to scortch my wort. I also use it to souve and can run it up to 2-3 days at a time.
A cheap PID and RIMS is probably the best pairing for your setup.
When I mashed in 10G cooler i'd see it lose about 4 degrees over an hour, and it was next to impossible to mash out. Also i'd see about 10 degrees of temperature stratification from bottom to top, even stirring every 15 minutes. I bought a 24" long thermometer for this purpose and it showed just how quickly it happened. Also interesting to see how many hot and cold spots formed. An unstirred mash isn't nearly as homogenous as you'd think. Beer still turned out fine though. Better with RIMS now though.
When I mashed in 10G cooler i'd see it lose about 4 degrees over an hour, and it was next to impossible to mash out. Also i'd see about 10 degrees of temperature stratification from bottom to top, even stirring every 15 minutes. I bought a 24" long thermometer for this purpose and it showed just how quickly it happened. Also interesting to see how many hot and cold spots formed. An unstirred mash isn't nearly as homogenous as you'd think. Beer still turned out fine though. Better with RIMS now though.
I am about to start building my system and only have one keg so far. I am starting with the hlt with herms first. I am using a cheap ebay pid and Chinese pump to get started cheap and gradually building up. I'll use my copper wort chiller for my herms coil, and use ice in the hlt to chill. Pid and pump and 24 volt power supply cost about $45. Sure the cooler will hold temps, but this will give me the circulation and more consistency. And it will get me through until I can afford the next step up.
Just remember they use to brew beer without electricity and accuracy. You can do the same. Today we are use to beers brewed at a higher level. What is your goal? You can make beer with equipment you are describing. The more experienced you are with the equipment the better you can make beer. Make a batch and see how it goes. I would take notes as much as you can and go from there.
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