Heretic Brewing Co.

[Montanaandy]

Reading in Chris Kennedy's post that Heretic's Evil Cousin uses (at least in part) Summit hops. That may be the turn off for some - at least based on my own personal experience with Summit. "Dank" is a good way of describing Summit. This is one hop that I have not been able to wrap my taste buds around.

I tried Oskar Blues Gubna which is brewed exclusively with Summit. Sorry, but the nicest thing I can say about it is that it was not my cup of tea. Choked the 4 pack down because there was no way I was going to pay $10 for a 4 pack of beer and not drink it. Was analogous to drinking malty cold onion soup out of a can. In hindsight, I should have saved it to cook with - the oniony flavor and aroma would have been fantastic in making gravy for a pressure cooked pot roast.

 

[cbraun77s]

I have enjoyed both Evil Twin and Cousin this evening way out in Pennsylvania! Shout out to Heretic and Beerjobber for making that happen. I agree with the idea that the "disappointment" that some describe stems from how dry the beers are. I find them desirable and a sign of great fermentation. Now I will say that I am sampling bottles of Heretic as opposed to on draft in CA. However, these are incredibly fresh samples. My only slight negative was the Cousin was a little high on carbonation. Overall, I think these are two great beers, with a Evil Twin being stellar. Will sample Shallow Grave this week as well. Will re-post.

 

[Ramitt]

You left coasters have a lot of nice brews out there...I'm a little jealous

I am too, but we are pretty lucky to have some great brews from 3floyds and Upland local.

 

[jammin]

Bump'n this ol' thread -

I'm already a BIG fan of the Evil Twin and finally got to try the Evil Cousin -

BOOOM - Hop Monster for sure. Loved every sip of it. Danky hops is a perfect description. Very well crafted though(genious?). This Evil Cousin was very inspiring to me as a home brewer, as was the Evil Twin.

Heretic is coming to Boise next month - can't wait to hang and do a tasting with them!

 

[mxpx5678]

I just didnt like this beer at all, I am not sure if i got a bad bottle or what. It tasted like it had been dry hopped with onions and garlic. I love me some Pliny the elder, but this was really undrinkable. Is that just the summit hops that I don't enjoy?

 

[Irrenarzt]

Evil Cousin is a good DIPA IMO. I do not think it contains Summit as I talked to Chris (the brewmaster at Heretic, Jamil is always out being the salesman/president/PR rep guy) and he said nothing of Summit when I was up there last. My sister lives very close to Handles and I've had it there a number of times. The brunette with the nice rack is a great server (Kara I think). Yum.

It's possible they sneak in a bit of Summit but by no means is it like Gubna. I am a huge Summit hater as previous posts will show. I have been vocal about my hatred for that filthy hop strain. I usually pick it out in a beer, even if it is used very sparingly. I did not get this with Evil Cousin and I have had it on numerous occasions.

 

[mxpx5678]

Evil Cousin is a good DIPA IMO. I do not think it contains Summit as I talked to Chris (the brewmaster at Heretic, Jamil is always out being the salesman/president/PR rep guy) and he said nothing of Summit when I was up there last. My sister lives very close to Handles and I've had it there a number of times. The brunette with the nice rack is a great server (Kara I think). Yum.

It's possible they sneak in a bit of Summit but by no means is it like Gubna. I am a huge Summit hater as previous posts will show. I have been vocal about my hatred for that filthy hop strain. I usually pick it out in a beer, even if it is used very sparingly. I did not get this with Evil Cousin and I have had it on numerous occasions.

I just had it again at hopyard in Pleasanton. It was ok. Better than the bottle I had. In that it was actually drinkable. There is still a slight garlicky/onion taste to it that I don't love but it at least is an ipa that I can drink

 

[erockomania]

Definitely summit in there, but they recently changed the recipe again which I believe contains significantly less summit.

 

[ryno84]

Found Heretic is stocked at local liquor store. So far, I've had Evil Twin and Shallow Grave. I was unsure about evil twin at first, but it really got better as I drank it. Good balance. The porter is good also. I have a bottle of the IIPA but haven't had it yet. A little worried bc I usually don't like huge hop profiles. But I will give it a shot.

 

[House12]

The hop profile for Evil Cousin has changed numerous times since they started. The reason why it initially contained Summit was based mostly on hop availability. When they first started brewing, they hadn't started their hop contracts yet (i.e. Simcoe). They have since dropped the Summit due to the availability of other hops and probably also because of public response (though they have possibly added a bit back in there for the few of us who miss its dankness). In my opinion, the first release of Cousin was the best DIPA I've tasted. It is still one of the best, but whenever I drink the new stuff, it just doesn't hit me like the first few tulips of it I had when they started. It used to have that heretical quality of being nothing like a Pliny clone.

Evil Twin is their best seller. Shallow Grave is just a glorious beer. As a belgian fan myself, I cannot speak highly enough of Heretic's Worry, and I will definitely be there whenever and wherever Torment (their belgian dark strong) is released.

 

[Irrenarzt]

I was lucky enough to have a sample with Chris of the Worry before it was bottled. Damn that is a tasty beer. Even flat right out of the barrel, it was an incredible tasting beer. I can't wait to get ahold of some of that when I'm up there soon.

 

[doctorRobert]

It sounds like he is still working on his process, and had some issues on his first few batches, not hitting his numbers, beers being too bitter, etc. I bet his beers will improve over time.

 

[ChrisKennedy]

Cousin started out with a pretty substantial charge of Summit late in the kettle and dry hopping. It was originally a mixture of Summit, Columbus and Apollo. The idea behind the beer was working with the kind of hops we could get at the time. We both enjoyed dank IPAs, so we thought we would go all out and make a super dank IPA, since making a citrusy IPA (my personal favorite kind, one of Columbus, Amarillo and Simcoe) was impossible since Amarillo and Simcoe were not available.

The summit and Apollo combined, though, gave off a very assertive onion garlic character, as Summit is apt to do. This got worse as the beer aged. So to counteract that, we eliminated all the Summit (except for the bittering charge, we have to use the hundreds of pounds of Summit we have somehow) and replaced it with Cascade. I am a big fan of contrasting hop flavors, and I thought a subtle citrus hop would work nicely with the mostly dank and slightly onion/garlic notes of Apollo and Columbus.

That was an improvement in my book, and we became pretty happy with what Cousin became at that point. But then we came upon some Simcoe, a very small amount, and have been adding a little bit to the dry hop only of the last few batches. Simcoe is one of the most dominating hops there is (rivaled only by Summit in my experience), and so even though it is a tiny percentage of the overall hop bill, it is a noticeable variation. I really enjoy where this beer is at now. The beer is still driven by the dankness of the Apollo, it still has a slight onion/garlic note (that does get a bit stronger as the beer ages), but it now is contrasted by some of the orange and just Simcoe-yness of Simcoe.

Some people loved the hell out of the early batches of Cousin, but I was never the biggest fan. It had a punch you in the face hoppiness that was nice, but the level of onion/garlic, especially over time, really didn't scream "AWESOME" to me. But now with the Simcoe compliment, it is starting to get around to that. It doesn't have quite the punch you in the face hop character that Summit (or a ton of Simcoe) can give you, but it has a nicely assertive hop character, a nicely assertive bitterness, and for my personal tastes, is a much tastier beer now than what it was earlier on.

Of course, double IPAs should be consumed as fresh as possible, and ours is no exception. We started bottle dating a few months ago, with the date of bottling right on the label (no cryptic messages, just a bottled date and now a batch code) to assist our customers in getting our beer fresh.

And I am actually having a glass of Worry right now, and it is tasting pretty darn nice, even warm (but actually carbonated, I am drinking a bottle conditioning test).

 

[Craig311]

Chris - Thanks for taking the time to provide some insight. I'm sure it's appreciated by all. I'm in CT and haven't had a chance to try the beers yet but am strongly considering paying to get some shipped as I've been a BN listener and fan of Jamil's since the beginning.

That said, I can appreciate the comparison that was made to GUBNA from Oskar Blues. I almost learned to like that beer but realized it's not something I'll go back to on a regular basis. The onion/garlic is just too much when it is the dominant (if not only) hop.

Do you guys have an idea of the ideal hop profile for the beer assuming no limitations on hop availability/cost? If so, and at this point in time, are you working more towards that? Or are you more focused on dialing in the beer given the constraints?

 

[erockomania]

Chris, thanks for the explanation! I was fortunate enough to talk with Jamil about this early on. I was a fan of the very earliest batches of Cousin... When super fresh and on tap. The bottled version just didn't hit me with the same hop aroma. In fact, it was mostly subdued. I think the recipe had changed by then and it just wasn't coming across as well as the stuff I was getting at Handles in Pleasanton. That stuff smelled like it had hops floating on top of the beer, haha! All the more recent stuff has been getting better but the dry hops don't seem to be as forward as originally. The taste is great and somewhat lighter lately. It seems like an entirely different beer actually. Most IPAs do change for the worse with time... If you, like me, find the aroma as important as the taste in IPAs. Having said that, is there a happy medium that will get Cousin back to a point where is tastes completely original and awesome while not taking on too much of the garlicky flavor/aroma with time? I think the earliest versions were completely unique. The most recent are a little more similar to the top West Coast style IPAs and don't really assert themselves as nearly as unique. Do not take that wrong... I've always been a huge fan. Still am I still try and find the freshest ones I can [at Perry's in Livermore usually] weekly.

 

[mxpx5678]

Cousin started out with a pretty substantial charge of Summit late in the kettle and dry hopping. It was originally a mixture of Summit, Columbus and Apollo. The idea behind the beer was working with the kind of hops we could get at the time. We both enjoyed dank IPAs, so we thought we would go all out and make a super dank IPA, since making a citrusy IPA (my personal favorite kind, one of Columbus, Amarillo and Simcoe) was impossible since Amarillo and Simcoe were not available.

The summit and Apollo combined, though, gave off a very assertive onion garlic character, as Summit is apt to do. This got worse as the beer aged. So to counteract that, we eliminated all the Summit (except for the bittering charge, we have to use the hundreds of pounds of Summit we have somehow) and replaced it with Cascade. I am a big fan of contrasting hop flavors, and I thought a subtle citrus hop would work nicely with the mostly dank and slightly onion/garlic notes of Apollo and Columbus.

That was an improvement in my book, and we became pretty happy with what Cousin became at that point. But then we came upon some Simcoe, a very small amount, and have been adding a little bit to the dry hop only of the last few batches. Simcoe is one of the most dominating hops there is (rivaled only by Summit in my experience), and so even though it is a tiny percentage of the overall hop bill, it is a noticeable variation. I really enjoy where this beer is at now. The beer is still driven by the dankness of the Apollo, it still has a slight onion/garlic note (that does get a bit stronger as the beer ages), but it now is contrasted by some of the orange and just Simcoe-yness of Simcoe.

Some people loved the hell out of the early batches of Cousin, but I was never the biggest fan. It had a punch you in the face hoppiness that was nice, but the level of onion/garlic, especially over time, really didn't scream "AWESOME" to me. But now with the Simcoe compliment, it is starting to get around to that. It doesn't have quite the punch you in the face hop character that Summit (or a ton of Simcoe) can give you, but it has a nicely assertive hop character, a nicely assertive bitterness, and for my personal tastes, is a much tastier beer now than what it was earlier on.

Of course, double IPAs should be consumed as fresh as possible, and ours is no exception. We started bottle dating a few months ago, with the date of bottling right on the label (no cryptic messages, just a bottled date and now a batch code) to assist our customers in getting our beer fresh.

And I am actually having a glass of Worry right now, and it is tasting pretty darn nice, even warm (but actually carbonated, I am drinking a bottle conditioning test).

I must have had a very old bottle I had it last week and it had no date anywhere on it.

 

[erockomania]

Chris, if I'm drinking a new batch of Cousin at Handles right now. You have it. It's fantastic. Perfect medium.

 

[Shooter]

Handles was featuring the Cousin and the Twin along with their Hopshack Brown as part of their beer sampler the other day...good stuff!

 

[ChickenArise]

I must have had a very old bottle I had it last week and it had no date anywhere on it.

Same here. I got a bottle of Twin and a Bottle of Cousin for a friend's birthday. No bottle dates on either. I'd say that I liked them, but for something I bought as a gift I was distracted by the flavors of old-hop-cheese that were present. I think it was a combination of age and storage before it got to me, but I could tell that I'd be a big fan of the beers if I got them fresh. Once finances allow, I'm definitely going to track some more down, maybe through a more direct source this time (west coast family, heh).

Luckily I also gave my buddy a Velvet Merlin and split a Kern River Just Oustanding IPA (lived up to its name like woah).