Help with Water after Water test.

[Morkin]

I just got my detailed water report back from the city I live in. I've noticed some astringent flavors in my lighter beers as of lately. Can anyone help or give me suggestions on my water. Here is the report:

Results stated as mg/L (put could be parts per million...PPM)

Chloride <5
Floride .12
Hardness as CaCO3 303
Calcium 58.3
Iron 42.0
Magnesium 38.4
Potassium 1.57
Sodium 3.29

Results stated as ug/L

Aluminum <25
Antimony <1
Arsenic <1
Barium 210
Berylium <1
Cadimum <1
Chromium <2.5
Copper <10
Lead <10
Maganese <1
Mercury <.2
Nickel <10
Selenium <5
Silver <5
Thallium <1
Zinc <10

PH 7.86
Sulfate 12.4
Total Akalinity as CaC03 315
Total Dissolved Solids 304
Turbidity <1

Now I know that Mash PH should be around 5.2, but with a water at 7.86, i'm not sure if that will buffer with the grains. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[stevo155]

This is a good chapter to read. http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html
Also included in there is a link to Palmer spreadsheet.

You're alkalinity is pretty high which may be why your extracting tanins, making it astringent. Your chloride and sulfates need to increase, but how much depends on what recipe you're brewing.

I usually keep my calcium around 100ppm, adding specific salts depending on what chloride to sulfate ratio I'm shooting for. Palmers spreadsheet will help with this.

 

[cmoon]

I ran your figures through EZ water calculator, and I think the big problem you have is your high levels of magnesium. In order to get your magnesium levels within range (according EZWC anyway), I had to use about 25% RO/distilled water in the mash and sparge--that is, you're gonna have to dilute the water you have.

As the previous poster said, everything beyond that is going to depend on your recipe. I didn't see a problem with your pH, but that was with an imaginary grain bill I just plugged in.

Personally I think your water is very workable, but at least with the grain bill I made up, I ended up having to add about 3 grams of gypsum and calcium chloride, split between the mash and the sparge. The pH came down to 5.5, which isn't a problem.

 

[Morkin]

The EZ water calculator seems for whatever reason easier than Palmers. I"m going to give it a try. Thanks!

 

[cmoon]

I'm pretty sure it was developed after Palmer's, but based on Palmer's calculations. I don't want to say 'dumbed down', but I find it very approachable.

I've used this for about 4-5 batches; so if you have any questions ask away.

 

[BigBlueDog]

Check the Sticky posts appearing in the Brew Science section of the forum. Lots of helpful info there.

 

[maida7]

EZWC is da bomb

Your mg is kinda high but I don't think that's a major problem. The alkalinity is your real problem. For dark beers it's good but for pale beers your mash and sparge pH is gonna be way to high. 2 solutions are add acid or dilute the alkaline tap water with RO water and then build back your minerals with salts. OR a combination of the 2.

Play with the EZWC and you'll figure it out. I'd suggest also testing the pH during your brew sessions to make sure the adjustments are working. A lot of water science is not very linear and the spreadsheet don't always work perfect in the real world.

 

[Yooper]

EZWC is da bomb

Your mg is kinda high but I don't think that's a major problem. The alkalinity is your real problem. For dark beers it's good but for pale beers your mash and sparge pH is gonna be way to high. 2 solutions are add acid or dilute the alkaline tap water with RO water and then build back your minerals with salts. OR a combination of the 2.

Play with the EZWC and you'll figure it out. I'd suggest also testing the pH during your brew sessions to make sure the adjustments are working. A lot of water science is not very linear and the spreadsheet don't always work perfect in the real world.

I agree- the alkalinity is high. And the iron is a big issue.

I'd try to figure a way to get rid of the iron (can iron be filtered?) and also dilute the tap water at least 50% with RO water to cut the alkalinity.

 

[samc]

Iron can be filtered but I don't think it is an efficient way as the filter would plug up pretty quickly. I know they use chemical treatments to get the iron to clump and fall to the bottom of a tank. AJ or one of the other water guru's should have the answer if it is not already in the brew science threads.

 

[cmoon]

Wow, my water report didn't even mention Iron (I got the cheap one from Wards.) I'm assuming this is something you could detect by taste.

I'm gonna play stupid here: Why is the alkalinity a problem? Once Morkin adds in his grain bill, his pH should be within or close to acceptable ranges. Nothing a little lactic acid couldn't fix.

Of course, that said I came to those numbers after replacing a quarter of his mash and sparge water with RO.

 

[Yooper]

Wow, my water report didn't even mention Iron (I got the cheap one from Wards.) I'm assuming this is something you could detect by taste.

I'm gonna play stupid here: Why is the alkalinity a problem? Once Morkin adds in his grain bill, his pH should be within or close to acceptable ranges. Nothing a little lactic acid couldn't fix.

Of course, that said I came to those numbers after replacing a quarter of his mash and sparge water with RO.

In short, highly alkaline water just doesn't taste good in beer. I've been considering preboiling my brewing water and racking off the precipitates, to lower my CaC03, but it's much easier to just buy two 2 gallon jugs of RO from the water machine at the grocery store for $.78/cents per two gallons.

 

[cmoon]

Well I guess I'm blessed with good water. Pretty much low in everything and a total alkalinity (CaCO3) of only 93.

 

[cmoon]

Edit after some reading> Yeah, Morkin's #'s are seriously out of control. Looking at How to Brew, and converting CaCO3 to HCO3, (/50, X61), you get a staggering 370 ppm. Palmer recommends nothing over 250 for even the darkest beers, and nothing over 50 for pale beers. Even my 93 ppm water should probably be diluted for some light beer.

There are other problems with the beer like the magnesium and iron, but wow.

 

[Morkin]

Here is my results after playing with EZ Water....


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 58.3
Mg: 38.4
Na: 3.29
Cl: 4
SO4: 12.4
HCO3: 315

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.5 / 4
RO or distilled %: 50% / 50%

Total Grain (lb): 10.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 1.14
MgSO4: 1 / 1.14
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 1
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 50 / 50
Mg: 26 / 26
Na: 2 / 2
Cl: 38 / 38
SO4: 36 / 36
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.08 / 1.08

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 69
RA: 18
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.68


My recipie is for a Munich Helles. I just brewed this beer with straight water. Tastes ok, but bitter and not a whole lot of malt flavor that I desire for this beer. The additions I made was 1 gram of Calc Chloride and Epsom Salt to both the mash and boil. This gave me a Chloride to Sulfate ratio of 1.08, which is balanced. I'm fine with that.

I also added 1 ml of lactic acid to lower the PH down from 5.77 to 5.68.

I have 2 concerns. Are my additions a lot? Will this effect taste in a negative way?

Also, my Sulfate in my base water is 12.4 PPM. At the bottom of the calculations it reads 36, in which Palmer recomends 50-350. Is that a problem with low sulfates, or am I reading this wrong? Everything else is well within ranges. Thanks for all the help thus far!

 

[stevo155]

Does your water report list sulfate as SO4 or SO4-S? The ward lab reports list sulfates as SO4-s, which is sulfur content. To get the correct sulfate level, you need to mulitply by 3. I believe the EZ Water calculator mentions this. Just something to make sure of.

Check out this link for a Munich Helles water profile:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes#very_soft_water

 

[Morkin]

It doesn't specify. It just lists it as Sulfate mg/L on my water report....

 

[maida7]

Here is my results after playing with EZ Water....


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 58.3
Mg: 38.4
Na: 3.29
Cl: 4
SO4: 12.4
HCO3: 315

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.5 / 4
RO or distilled %: 50% / 50%

Total Grain (lb): 10.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 1.14
MgSO4: 1 / 1.14
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 1
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 50 / 50
Mg: 26 / 26
Na: 2 / 2
Cl: 38 / 38
SO4: 36 / 36
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.08 / 1.08

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 69
RA: 18
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.68


My recipie is for a Munich Helles. I just brewed this beer with straight water. Tastes ok, but bitter and not a whole lot of malt flavor that I desire for this beer. The additions I made was 1 gram of Calc Chloride and Epsom Salt to both the mash and boil. This gave me a Chloride to Sulfate ratio of 1.08, which is balanced. I'm fine with that.

I also added 1 ml of lactic acid to lower the PH down from 5.77 to 5.68.

I have 2 concerns. Are my additions a lot? Will this effect taste in a negative way?

Also, my Sulfate in my base water is 12.4 PPM. At the bottom of the calculations it reads 36, in which Palmer recomends 50-350. Is that a problem with low sulfates, or am I reading this wrong? Everything else is well within ranges. Thanks for all the help thus far!

I'd not use Epsom salts (because you already have plenty Mg. And with a malt dominated style like a Helles, I'd keep the sulphates to a minimum and jack up the chlorides. I'd get rid on the Epsom salt and double the amount of CaCL2 in the mash and boil. Lastly, your mash pH is on the high end of the range. There is a chance that your sparge you go high on the pH (if you fly sparge and the gravity runs low). This may result in some tannin extracted from the husks during the sparge. You could combat this by adding a small amount of lactic to the sparge water.

 

[Morkin]

I'd not use Epsom salts (because you already have plenty Mg. And with a malt dominated style like a Helles, I'd keep the sulphates to a minimum and jack up the chlorides. I'd get rid on the Epsom salt and double the amount of CaCL2 in the mash and boil. Lastly, your mash pH is on the high end of the range. There is a chance that your sparge you go high on the pH (if you fly sparge and the gravity runs low). This may result in some tannin extracted from the husks during the sparge. You could combat this by adding a small amount of lactic to the sparge water.

The Tannin extraction is what I am trying to avoid. OK. Here is an updated water addition with the Epsom salts taken out. Any better? I also lowered the lactic acid, as I've read that anywhere near 2 ml of Lactic acid will produce a sour flavor.



Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 58.3
Mg: 38.4
Na: 3.29
Cl: 4
SO4: 12.4
HCO3: 315

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.5 /
RO or distilled %: 25% /

Total Grain (lb): 10.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 /
CaCl2: 1 /
MgSO4: 0 /
NaHCO3: 0 /
NaCl: 0 /
CaCO3: 0 /
Lactic Acid (ml): 1.5
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 64 /
Mg: 29 /
Na: 2 /
Cl: 39 /
SO4: 9 /
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 4.24 /

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 103
RA: 41
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.70

 

[cmoon]

This is the big question, and I hope Yooper (or others) will chime in. Which matters more, the total alkalinity of the water before mash, or the effective alkalinity in the mash? I added 1.8 ml of lactic acid to Morkin's water to get what looks like a good effective alkalinity for a helles lager (under 50).

It still does not solve the iron problem.

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.5 / 5
RO or distilled %: 25% / 25%

Total Grain (lb): 10.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 6

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 1 / 1.428571429
CaCl2: 1.1 / 1.571428571
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 1.8
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 83 / 83
Mg: 29 / 29
Na: 2 / 2
Cl: 43 / 43
SO4: 51 / 51
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.84 / 0.84

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 34
RA: -42
Estimated pH: 5.45

Edit: Note, the CaCl2 additions are to achieve a balanced style. I wasn't trying to replicate Munich water.

 

[Morkin]

You don't think the high Lactic acid will give it an off flavor?

 

[maida7]

I think diluting with a higher percentage of RO water is probably a good idea. Then build back the calcium with CaCL2 (gypsum if your making a hoppy beer) and add acid to get the mash pH fixed. I'm not sure what you do about the iron. Perhaps the dilution fixes that problem as well.

Now I feel blessed to have really good water. Virtually no minerals and alkalinity close to 30. It's like a blank canvas.

 

[Morkin]

Again though, 1.8 mls of Lactic acid seems high, I want an opinion that it will not effect taste!

 

[maida7]

Again though, 1.8 mls of Lactic acid seems high, I want an opinion that it will not effect taste!

If you dilute the tap water with a greater percentage of RO water you will need less acid. Give it a try in the spreadsheet.

 

[Morkin]

If you dilute the tap water with a greater percentage of RO water you will need less acid. Give it a try in the spreadsheet.

Got it. Thanks. Got it down to 6.50 I can live with that.

 

[lou2row]

Another thing to remember is this is the numbers leaving the plant. Some things will be an average, others a maximum level. If your water stability is scale forming, the calcium will be lower. If it is corrosive, it will pick up calcium and iron through the system. Alkalinity and hardness don't sway much in the system though. pH will drop as the water ages and tries to reach neutral and eats away the chlorine residual.

A brita style filter will lower several minerals, like Fluoride and iron. The calcium and Magnesium will also be affected, lowering alk and hardness. Your water seems to be a ground water source, so total organic carbons and algae taste and odors shouldn't be an issue.