Help with IPA flavour stability.

[beerkench]

I need help with keeping my IPA's fresh and from losing flavour within 2 weeks.
After carbonating in the keg for a week they taste magic but then as time goes on they start to get less and less flavourful with only the bitterness still being pronounced. After 3 weeks or so they are almost like a bitter.

I brew 5 gallons and do a primary only fermentation in a 8 gallon (30L) Speidel fermenter then dry hop and rack to a purged keg. I am sure that my gear is clean and sanitized and I check mash pH with a pH meter. My water is very soft and is good drinking water. I add 2-3 gr of gypsum.

My guess is oxidization but the frustrating thing is that I don't know how I can reduce it as I purge everything before racking and purge the keg after.
I am wondering if a smaller fermenter would help?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yes, hop aroma does drop off with age. It's one reason why homebrew is mostly tastier than commercial beer.

There are a few things you can try to improve it.

1. Drink it faster.
2. Try dry hopping in the keg (plenty of threads on this one).
3. Try more aggressively hopping late in the boil (last 5 mins or so) or whirlpool hopping for aroma rather than only relying on dry hop.

 

[pvpeacock]

It is amazing and somewhat disappointing that you can't just lock in the flavor when it gets exactly how you like it. I will sometimes make a hop tea and add it to the keg after a few weeks which helps recharge the hop flavor and aroma.

 

[Subdivisions]

This is a pretty timely thread as I just got a case of Dogfish Head 60 minute IPA. The package date is 5/12/15. It's not an IPA anymore. It's more like a malty pale ale or bitter as you suggested. It's a completely different beer.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it happens to the best of them and time is your enemy. Now I'll just go sulk with my 'not so' 60 minute.

 

[tgmartin000]

Cold crash. ...keg hopping is always good. ...

 

[beerkench]

Anyone else?

 

[DrunkleJon]

When your IPA needs a boost just sanatize a hop bag, vent the pressure and dry hop or re dry hop it in the keg before hooking it back up to the gas. After a couple days it should be better than before. Unfortunately hops fade, IPAs are best when fresh, as are wheat beers. Such is the world. If anyone comes up with a hop aroma/flavor stabilizing technique that works, please dont keep it to yourself.

Then again, with my beers that I dry hop in the keg while carbonating I can usually get a month or so out of the keg before it gets too dull, with no grassy flavors apparent. Keep it cold and you are fine. Dont vent the headspace unless you are adding more hops (if you do, you are letting all the smell out).

 

[beerkench]

If anyone comes up with a hop aroma/flavor stabilizing technique that works, please dont keep it to yourself.

The thing that frustrates me though is that the IPA's from the bigger craft brewers say Lagunitas for example, seem to age really well compared to mine. The hop flavour can sometimes be diminshed from an older commercial IPA but the flavours i.e malt and hops still marry well. When my hops start to drop out the flavour becomes like nothing even though I use similar malt profiles.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I got you there. Maybe it has to do with the filtering that a lot of breweries do. Or maybe they just dryhop the hell out of it before packaging (using a hop rocket or something similar) so that when it fades its still hoppy. I dont know. Mine stay pretty hoppy though. Then again I dry hop anything pale ale or ipa in the keg. Can usually finish them before they go flat.

 

[m00ps]

yeah, Id second (or third or fourth) keg hopping. I keep them in the keg the whole time. I use whole cone hops to keg hop, but others have had success with pellets and still no grassy flavors. I had a DIPA that I kegged and hopped in January and due to some random circumstance, wasnt able to cool and drink it until mid april. It was amazing though, despite the 4 months of sitting there

 

[mrdail87]

+1 to keg hopping. Had a pale ale just a few weeks ago that was too dry/bitter for my tastes. Keg hops helped boost it to where it needed to be.

 

[khillian]

This is why I rarely buy commercial bottled hoppy beer. So many 2 month old warm stored dusty bottles for sale at full price. This is why I think many people say they do not like hoppy beer. Goto breweries and get the beer fresh, bring home growlers, or of course homebrew.

In terms of flavor stability pale hoppy beers are a ticking time bomb. Focusing on obsessive oxygen reduction will help. Listen to Vinny from Russian River or any pro brewer, they measure and watch 02 pickup. That c02 heavy blanket theory thrown around here is bull****. If you have any splashing during your transfer your picking up 02, this is why I switched back to fermenting buckets with spigots to transfer from primary to my kegs. I also do not cold crash in primary, the suck back of 02 is not worth it, unless you can connect c02 to your primary. I also don't buy the yeast hurts the hops and removes most oils. Late wirl pool kettle steeping wouldn't work according to this theory thrown around on here. Lately I dry hop 6 days into primary for pales and bigger beers get a second dose in the keg after transfering into the keg with no cold crash.

 

[brewprint]

Just think if you didn't have kegs and had to bottle condition an IPA. The hop heads that are bottling have no idea what they're missing if they think they have a fresh IPA.

Mine fade over time but I usually drink them before that happens too much. The bitterness however does not get greater as the hops fade. I'm not sure what's up with that.

 

[Clonefan94]

I read threads like this and wonder if my taste buds are totally screwed.

Granted, I'm not claiming that my IPAs taste the same to me on day thirty as they did on day one, by any stretch, but I've never had my hops fade that much that it didn't drink like an IPA anymore.

I just had a keg kick that was on tap for a little more than a month. When you took a drink of it, it was still very much, "Oh yeah, that's Citra Hops"

 

[beerkench]

This is why I rarely buy commercial bottled hoppy beer. So many 2 month old warm stored dusty bottles for sale at full price. This is why I think many people say they do not like hoppy beer. Goto breweries and get the beer fresh, bring home growlers, or of course homebrew.

In terms of flavor stability pale hoppy beers are a ticking time bomb. Focusing on obsessive oxygen reduction will help. Listen to Vinny from Russian River or any pro brewer, they measure and watch 02 pickup. That c02 heavy blanket theory thrown around here is bull****. If you have any splashing during your transfer your picking up 02, this is why I switched back to fermenting buckets with spigots to transfer from primary to my kegs. I also do not cold crash in primary, the suck back of 02 is not worth it, unless you can connect c02 to your primary. I also don't buy the yeast hurts the hops and removes most oils. Late wirl pool kettle steeping wouldn't work according to this theory thrown around on here. Lately I dry hop 6 days into primary for pales and bigger beers get a second dose in the keg after transfering into the keg with no cold crash.

You sound like you know your stuff so I have some questions for you.
If you don't cold crash in the primary what do you do?
How do you transfer to the keg using the spigot without taking the yeast with it? I find that my yeast cake is sometimes at the same level as the spigot.
Do you really find that dry hopping during fermentation is effective?
I'm not doubting it as I've never tried it but like you said most, including top brewers say the yeast will scrub away the aroma.

 

[D-Train]

Just for the first time I tried a "no oxygen" approach with my most recent IPA. I took zero samples after pitching, instead relying on past experience to tell me when it's done. I used a co2 filled balloon (actually strile nitrite glove) trick to crash cool in the carboy without picking up oxygen. I completely purged the keg by filling with starsan and then pushing it out, and then I used a closed transfer by pushing the beer out of the carboy into the keg using co2. Overkill? Maybe, but it's been in the keg for a few weeks and doesn't seem to be fading.

 

[khillian]

Q:If you don't cold crash in the primary what do you do?

A: I make sure my calcium is over 50ppm for every beer. When the yeast is done it will start to floc on its own. Some yeast in the keg won't hurt anything, if any oxygen does get into the beer during kegging the yeast will help uptake some. I think cold crashing first, then racking (if your sloppy) then warming it back up to dry hop is not worth the risk.

Q:How do you transfer to the keg using the spigot without taking the yeast with it? I find that my yeast cake is sometimes at the same level as the spigot.

A:I tend to tilt my brew bucket during fermentation away from the spigot so trub/yeast settles more in the back of the bucket. Again you can also use a cup under the spigot to take the first bit off for a sample before attaching a hose. In terms of hose material, vinyl drives me crazy with bends and memory. I switched to silicone tubing bc it never kinks, I usually only hear the first splash of liquid and my transfers are silent after that into a purged keg.

Qo you really find that dry hopping during fermentation is effective?
Q:I'm not doubting it as I've never tried it but like you said most, including top brewers say the yeast will scrub away the aroma.

A: I said above, wouldn't this make all whirlpool and kettle steeping useless? Because your pitching yeast and fermenting the beer, yet these additions seem to have an impact?

A: Here's a response on Matts approach from FireStone Walker, he used to be a hop chemist making extracts and doing hop experiments.
-----
"We know that yeast activity can result in positive changes to hop oils.
Adding hops toward the end of fermentation (or during fermentation for
that matter) can result in some positive aroma compounds that carry
through to the finished product. The problem is that hop oils can be
scrubbed out of the beer through fermentation (CO2 evolution) and there
are losses due to hop components (oils and resins) adhering to the yeast
cell and being removed from the beer. In other words, dry hopping in the
presence of yeast has some proven positive flavor effects but negative
extraction effects. Once the yeast has been largely removed from the
beer, there is opportunity for better extraction of raw hop character. So
we do both. We try to take advantage of both possible extraction
opportunities and our belief is that we get a more well rounded hop aroma
with high overall hop impact.

The theoretical justification could be argued and certainly great beers
are made with single dry hop additions. The boys at Lagunitas do a single
hop pellet addition for dry hopping and they get a very high hop impact.
You could compare a Union Jack and a Lagunitas IPA and decide which method
you prefer (of course the hop variety, time on the hops, amount of hops
and temperature of the dry hop all play into the equation.)"
------

There is no "right" way just throwing in my two cents, more people on this forum should try dry hopping pales/IPAs just once near the end of primary fermentation as stated, I think you will be surprised with the results.

Also keep your ferments healthy and fast. The goal is to ferment this and get it cold with no to little oxygen exposure. Letting your hoppy beers sit for "3" weeks because everyone here says it helps is bad advice. There is no good reason for an average strength beer to sit for 3 weeks in primary. If your interested in some of my experiments / brewing you can check out my posts on http://www.crownheights.beer I just got an email from Sam Adams that my Galaxy Pale is one of 8 semi finalists in the LongShot competition. So my techniques and process must be working =) Most of my pale beers get one round of dry hoping in primary, and I am drinking them by day 14.

Most Pales go Brew Day, 6 days later add 2oz of hops loose into the bucket, by day 11 I am racking normally into a purged keg. That keg goes right into the kegerator with 30PSI to chill down. 12 hours later once its cold I re attach the co2 at 30PSI for 24 hours, I then vent some of the c02, reconnect at 10psi for serving.

Bigger IPA/DIPA follow the same, dry hop 2oz at day 6 in primary, except at day 11, I rack to a keg, adding 2-6oz of dry hops in muslin bags. I then let this sit at room temperature after purging the headspace 4X at 15psi. This infuses at room temp 70F for 4-5 days. I then follow the same chilling/carbonation at my pales.

I normally don't fine my beers, I don't mind cloudy beers. If I do want it to be clear, add gelatin after its chilled before re-attaching the 30PSI for carbonation, if there are bagged hops in the keg then take them out before adding geltain. If this removes too much hop character, change the recipe, ie. add more hops =).

 

[JackieTreehorn77]

I just did my first batch and had a similar experience. Pale ale that was great for the first 12-14 days and then they suddenly got bitter and lost most of their hop aroma/flavor. I use buckets and bottles, I can't pinpoint any major mistakes in the process but I might have got some oxidation because I had to move the bucket a few times. I was careful not to slosh it but I'm sure there was some sloshing.

 

[brewprint]

How do you transfer to the keg using the spigot without taking the yeast with it? I find that my yeast cake is sometimes at the same level as the spigot.

Get an auto siphon or just a siphon and keep it above the trub.

 

[beerkench]

Get an auto siphon or just a siphon and keep it above the trub.

The point intended was to avoid the auto siphon to avoid the inevitable oxygen uptake.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[brewprint]

The point intendent was to avoid the auto siphon to avoid the inevitable oxygen uptake.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

Oxygen uptake? In all of my 100 plus batches I've not had any get oxidation. That is very hard to do. IMHO oxidation is almost an unrealistic fear that is spread across the Internet and this forum like wildfire.

Not saying it couldn't happen but you'd have to almost dump beer into a bottling bucket for it to occur.

 

[khillian]

Oxygen uptake? In all of my 100 plus batches I've not had any get oxidation. That is very hard to do. IMHO oxidation is almost an unrealistic fear that is spread across the Internet and this forum like wildfire.

Not saying it couldn't happen but you'd have to almost dump beer into a bottling bucket for it to occur.

Vinny from Russian River has stated flushing everything with c02 even when bottling hoppy beer is a good idea. For Pliny the Elder, he modified parts of his bottling machine to flush each bottle with c02 multiple times before and after filling with beer.

Have you ever used an dissolved oxygen meter on any of your batches?

Dark beers are much more resilient, providing anti oxidant compounds into the beer. It's only pale hoppy and wheat beers we are talking about.

I'm sure your beer is fine but its no Russian River. Oxidation doesn't always present it self as wet paper or cardboard, I hate that description, it mutes flavors and darkens the beer. I do think many pro breweries have a laid back attitude and that's why their hoppy beers are not world class but merely drinkable. There is a reason Russian River and The Alchemist make consistent world class hoppy beer. They both bring up oxidation, not some special technique or hop supplier. I for one want to make world class hoppy beer, you don't get there by just doing "enough", it takes attention to detail across your whole process.

 

[brewprint]

I guess the thousands of dollars pro brewers pay for high end bottling lines to reduce 02 are a waste of money? Vinny from Russian River has stated flushing everything with c02 even when bottling hoppy beer is a good idea. For Pliny the Elder, he modified parts of his bottling machine to flush each bottle with c02 multiple times before and after filling with beer.

Have you ever used an dissolved oxygen meter on any of your batches?

Dark beers are much more resilient, providing anti oxidant compounds into the beer. It's only pale hoppy and wheat beers we are talking about.

I'm sure your beer is fine but its no Russian River. Oxidation doesn't always present it self as wet paper or cardboard, I hate that description, it mutes flavors and darkens the beer. I do think many pro breweries have that laid back attitude and that's why their hoppy beers are not world class but merely drinkable. There is a reason Russian River and The Alchemist make consistent world class hoppy beer. They both bring up oxidation, not some special technique or hop supplier. I for one want to make world class hoppy beer, you don't get there by just doing "enough", it takes attention to detail across your whole process.

I'm sorry but are you brewing beer on the same scale as Russian River and the Alchemist?

Bottling beer is another animal than using kegs because the yeast will eat the oxygen to ferment the sugar in the bottle. The risk is null.

I have not used an oxygen meter.

The reason I made my suggestion is to avoid trub going into the keg. How much oxygen in reality is going to come up into the siphon? It's the difference in the siphon height and tube length vs. the length of the tubing attached to the spigot. Let's say it's 2 to 3 feet longer.

Come on man like it really makes a difference!

We're home brewers brewing 1-10 gallons at a time (for the most part).

This oxygenation thing...especially when using a spigot compared to a siphon is literally a joke.

Again to avoid excessive trub get rid of the spigot idea.

 

[beerkench]

Q:If you don't cold crash in the primary what do you do?

A: I make sure my calcium is over 50ppm for every beer. When the yeast is done it will start to floc on its own. Some yeast in the keg won't hurt anything, if any oxygen does get into the beer during kegging the yeast will help uptake some. I think cold crashing first, then racking (if your sloppy) then warming it back up to dry hop is not worth the risk.

Q:How do you transfer to the keg using the spigot without taking the yeast with it? I find that my yeast cake is sometimes at the same level as the spigot.

A:I tend to tilt my brew bucket during fermentation away from the spigot so trub/yeast settles more in the back of the bucket. Again you can also use a cup under the spigot to take the first bit off for a sample before attaching a hose. In terms of hose material, vinyl drives me crazy with bends and memory. I switched to silicone tubing bc it never kinks, I usually only hear the first splash of liquid and my transfers are silent after that into a purged keg.

Qo you really find that dry hopping during fermentation is effective?
Q:I'm not doubting it as I've never tried it but like you said most, including top brewers say the yeast will scrub away the aroma.

A: I said above, wouldn't this make all whirlpool and kettle steeping useless? Because your pitching yeast and fermenting the beer, yet these additions seem to have an impact?

A: Here's a response on Matts approach from FireStone Walker, he used to be a hop chemist making extracts and doing hop experiments.
-----
"We know that yeast activity can result in positive changes to hop oils.
Adding hops toward the end of fermentation (or during fermentation for
that matter) can result in some positive aroma compounds that carry
through to the finished product. The problem is that hop oils can be
scrubbed out of the beer through fermentation (CO2 evolution) and there
are losses due to hop components (oils and resins) adhering to the yeast
cell and being removed from the beer. In other words, dry hopping in the
presence of yeast has some proven positive flavor effects but negative
extraction effects. Once the yeast has been largely removed from the
beer, there is opportunity for better extraction of raw hop character. So
we do both. We try to take advantage of both possible extraction
opportunities and our belief is that we get a more well rounded hop aroma
with high overall hop impact.

The theoretical justification could be argued and certainly great beers
are made with single dry hop additions. The boys at Lagunitas do a single
hop pellet addition for dry hopping and they get a very high hop impact.
You could compare a Union Jack and a Lagunitas IPA and decide which method
you prefer (of course the hop variety, time on the hops, amount of hops
and temperature of the dry hop all play into the equation.)"
------

There is no "right" way just throwing in my two cents, more people on this forum should try dry hopping pales/IPAs just once near the end of primary fermentation as stated, I think you will be surprised with the results.

Also keep your ferments healthy and fast. The goal is to ferment this and get it cold with no to little oxygen exposure. Letting your hoppy beers sit for "3" weeks because everyone here says it helps is bad advice. There is no good reason for an average strength beer to sit for 3 weeks in primary. If your interested in some of my experiments / brewing you can check out my posts on http://www.crownheights.beer I just got an email from Sam Adams that my Galaxy Pale is one of 8 semi finalists in the LongShot competition. So my techniques and process must be working =) Most of my pale beers get one round of dry hoping in primary, and I am drinking them by day 14.

Most Pales go Brew Day, 6 days later add 2oz of hops loose into the bucket, by day 11 I am racking normally into a purged keg. That keg goes right into the kegerator with 30PSI to chill down. 12 hours later once its cold I re attach the co2 at 30PSI for 24 hours, I then vent some of the c02, reconnect at 10psi for serving.

Bigger IPA/DIPA follow the same, dry hop 2oz at day 6 in primary, except at day 11, I rack to a keg, adding 2-6oz of dry hops in muslin bags. I then let this sit at room temperature after purging the headspace 4X at 15psi. This infuses at room temp 70F for 4-5 days. I then follow the same chilling/carbonation at my pales.

I normally don't fine my beers, I don't mind cloudy beers. If I do want it to be clear, add gelatin after its chilled before re-attaching the 30PSI for carbonation, if there are bagged hops in the keg then take them out before adding geltain. If this removes too much hop character, change the recipe, ie. add more hops =).

This is a great approach you have to packaging your beer. Avoiding oxidation and getting your beer off the yeast cake fast.
I'm certainly looking forward to trying this with my next batch.
I usally ferment for a week and then dry hop for a week and then crash for a week (with the hops still in). I've been doubtful about whether it's a good idea leaving the hops in for such a long crash so your method makes good sense.

Do you not find though that you get too much sediment at the bottom of your keg?

 

[beerkench]

Just for the first time I tried a "no oxygen" approach with my most recent IPA. I took zero samples after pitching, instead relying on past experience to tell me when it's done. I used a co2 filled balloon (actually strile nitrite glove) trick to crash cool in the carboy without picking up oxygen. I completely purged the keg by filling with starsan and then pushing it out, and then I used a closed transfer by pushing the beer out of the carboy into the keg using co2. Overkill? Maybe, but it's been in the keg for a few weeks and doesn't seem to be fading.

Do you connect your tubing to a ball lock connector to get the beer in the keg?
Does it work ok backwards?

 

[khillian]

Nope, normal thin layer of sediment, give it a try!

Below is a good read, I think many people on this forum are oxidizing their hoppy beers. They are the most prone and the most difficult to brew correctly in my opinion. Below is a good summary of flavor/aroma issues, notice no mention of wet cardboard or paper.

http://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

Dalgliesch cites a decline in hop aroma, a decline in hop bitterness, an increase in “ribes aroma” (or sometimes “catty” flavor) and an increase in sweet/toffee-like/caramel tones.

 

[khillian]

Do you connect your tubing to a ball lock connector to get the beer in the keg?
Does it work ok backwards?

I have tried that, but my loose 2oz of dry hops in primary can at times clog at the popit on the keg, if you bag in primary this can work. Lately I purge the star san clean keg 4x at 15psi. Quickly open the keg, place silicone tubing from sigot into the keg and open the spigot, if it's getting a second round I will place the hop bag with dental floss in the top 1/3 space. After purge the head space again 4x at 15psi.

 

[tgmartin000]

Most Pales go Brew Day, 6 days later add 2oz of hops loose into the bucket, by day 11 I am racking normally into a purged keg. That keg goes right into the kegerator with 30PSI to chill down. 12 hours later once its cold I re attach the co2 at 30PSI for 24 hours, I then vent some of the c02, reconnect at 10psi for serving.
.

Congrats on the long shot! For my last pale, which is carbonating as we speak, I did just that. Fermented, starting low and letting rise by day 4-5. Dry hopped on day 6 with loose pellets, gave it 6 days, then cold crashed for 3 days. I tried it a few days ago, after a week in the keg, and it was super fresh.

 

[khillian]

I'm sorry but are you brewing beer on the same scale as Russian River and the Alchemist?

Bottling beer is another animal than using kegs because the yeast will eat the oxygen to ferment the sugar in the bottle. The risk is null.

I have not used an oxygen meter.

The reason I made my suggestion is to avoid trub going into the keg. How much oxygen in reality is going to come up into the siphon? It's the difference in the siphon height and tube length vs. the length of the tubing attached to the spigot. Let's say it's 2 to 3 feet longer.

Come on man like it really makes a difference!

We're home brewers brewing 1-10 gallons at a time (for the most part).

This oxygenation thing...especially when using a spigot compared to a siphon is literally a joke.

Again to avoid excessive trub get rid of the spigot idea.

For me it does, I really really suck at using auto siphons. You would have thought after 6 years of brewing I would have gotten better. Between bubbles coming from the connection at the cane, watching little 02 bubbles dance as the beer flows through, to the pump time when the vinyl tubing moves in the keg and I can spend the next minute trying to stop the splashing noises (sure if you purge your keg 4x at 15psi there isn't much oxygen if you correct this quickly).

Switching to spigots for me just mimics conical fermenters where tubing and gravity is used. If i didn't live in a darn 1 bed room apartment in SF I would already have a conical fermenter.

Again this is just one piece of the puzzle, I just think home brewers on this forum think of oxidation as wet cardboard/paper which is not true for hoppy beers. Its why so many hoppy beers just suck, it drives me mad. Commercially most of the hoppy beers at Bevmo here in California just suck, 6 month old Union Jack DIPA sitting warm, yum!. Sure they are drinkable but they aren't that amazing experience of Pliny/Heady/Any damn hoppy beer Cellarmaker Brewing makes.

I won't even mention what I think of most of the hoppy home-brew I have tried, even including my former batches of years past =). I pretty much was going crazy over a year ago https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=460902 which lead me to stop drinking during brewing/racking and pay attention as if this were a business, like Russian River. I know some people on this forum are not into brewing on that level, that is fine, but it sure as hell has improved my beers.

 

[m00ps]

I am a firm believer in oxidation being a major issue, even at a homebrewing level. I started kegging recently, and the quality of my IPAs has gotten soooo much better as a result. I can purge the keg, transfer, and repurge. Most of the IPAs I bottled picked up some portion of oxygen mostly during the bottling process. They were great soon after carbing, but very muddled months later. Kegging helps tremendously to limit oxygen exposure