Help with first biab

[brent1769]

I'm doing a biab partial mash.
I need help with water amount. I want to have 5 gallons in the fermenter.
6lb 2-row
1lb aromatic malt
1lb caramel/crystal 60L
3lb Amber DME

What would I need for the mash /sparge?
This is my second batch so still learning.

 

[chickypad]

How big is your pot? I do 6-8 lbs of grain for my all grain 3 gal BIAB batches in an old 5 gal pot and typically do a 3 gallon mash, 1.5 gal dunk sparge (or 2.5 gal mash/2 gal sparge) which yields a 3.75-4 gal with squeezing the bag. You could do that then add your extract at the flameout and top off in the fermenter. If you don't have a second pot large enough to dunk sparge you could pour the sparge water over the grains in a colander.

 

[brent1769]

How big is your pot? I do 6-8 lbs of grain for my all grain 3 gal BIAB batches in an old 5 gal pot and typically do a 3 gallon mash, 1.5 gal dunk sparge (or 2.5 gal mash/2 gal sparge) which yields a 3.75-4 gal with squeezing the bag. You could do that then add your extract at the flameout and top off in the fermenter. If you don't have a second pot large enough to dunk sparge you could pour the sparge water over the grains in a colander.

Thanks. I think I'll give that a try. Appreciate the help

 

[SlickTX]

I'm one batch in to biab and I am still dialing things in. Beersmith told me to start with 8.2 gal of water but since I had a 9 gal kettle that wasn't going to happen. I started with 6 gal and ended with 4 gal into the fermenter, topped off to 5.25 gal or so and ended up with exactly 48 bottles filled. I'm going to try 7.25 to 7.5 gal next because I've upgraded to an 11 gal kettle.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

I have been BIAB for a couple years now. Assuming you have a full size bag (big enough to put the entire brew kettle into) I usually don't bother sparging. I heat the kettle to 3 or 4 degrees above dough in (to account for the temp of the grains) put in the bag, securing te perimeter to the rim of the kettle all around ( I have a drawstring) drop in the grains and set the timer for 60 minutes. Then I place the grain bag into a 5 gallon homer bucket with a lot of holes in the bottom, place it in a spare 7.5 gallon fermenter, and let it drip while I'm heating the wort. Squeeze the bag like it owes you beer, lift the homer bucket and pour the squeezings into the BK.

I allow 1 gallon for boilof, and 1 gallons grain absorption. That means for a usual grain bill ( 10 LBS for 5 gallons) I'd strike with 7 gallons of water or so.

 

[trboyden]

The safe ratio used in John Palmer's How to Brew book is 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain in the mash.

Reference:
John Palmer - How to Brew (http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html)

I'm doing a biab partial mash.
I need help with water amount. I want to have 5 gallons in the fermenter.
6lb 2-row
1lb aromatic malt
1lb caramel/crystal 60L
3lb Amber DME

What would I need for the mash /sparge?
This is my second batch so still learning.

 

[shetc]

Please see the calculator published at BIABrewer.info - I find it to be very handy.

 

[brent1769]

How big is your pot? I do 6-8 lbs of grain for my all grain 3 gal BIAB batches in an old 5 gal pot and typically do a 3 gallon mash, 1.5 gal dunk sparge (or 2.5 gal mash/2 gal sparge) which yields a 3.75-4 gal with squeezing the bag. You could do that then add your extract at the flameout and top off in the fermenter. If you don't have a second pot large enough to dunk sparge you could pour the sparge water over the grains in a colander.

I have a 5 gallon pot

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Please see the calculator published at BIABrewer.info - I find it to be very handy.

While I can see the appeal, this is really only useful for a full volume mash. Ie no sparging.
I made a new calculator based off of this one, and added some other features I found missing and useful for a biab sparging method. Links in my sig, please take a look and let me know any comments or feature requests.

 

[Spelaeus]

I like to go for a 1.5qt/lb mash thickness with BIAB given pot constraints. You've got 8lbs of grain so that's 3gal on the nose. I'd mash in 3gal, then sparge and squeeze to bring the water level back up after grain absorbs its share. Boil, then top off to your final volume in the fermenter.

 

[LLBrewer]

If I were doing a partial mash, no way I'd try to do a full boil. I'd get by on as little water as possible and then top off (with ice cold water) to 5.5 gallons in the fermenter. This will make cooling the wort much faster and easier.

 

[trboyden]

A lot of people commenting here are ignoring a key fact - measuring the gravity of the mash wort should be the #1 factor of how much water is being used. Yes, you need a baseline to start off at, so whether you use a calculator or use the 1.5 qt/lb ratio as your starting point is subjective. To that argument, if you are at your gravity, do you need to sparge? No, of course not. And by doing so, you lower your gravity. Most of the time you are going to be low, not high, and adding sparge water is going to make it worse. The mash process teaches you what your real efficiency is and how to hit your gravity from grain on a consistent basis.

None of the above, matters for a partial mash brew. The whole point of partial mash is that you are trying to get some natural sugars, and more important, flavors and aroma from actual grains. The majority of your sugars is going to come from extracts. So a sparge isn't needed for partial mash, because you are not looking to get every last bit of sugar from your grain in order to hit your gravity.

At most you may get half a point of gravity from a sparge. Typically it isn't worth it, which is why a lot of people do a recirculating mash process which negates the need, while gaining more efficiency.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[chickypad]

A lot of people commenting here are ignoring a key fact - measuring the gravity of the mash wort should be the #1 factor of how much water is being used. Yes, you need a baseline to start off at, so whether you use a calculator or use the 1.5 qt/lb ratio as your starting point is subjective. To that argument, if you are at your gravity, do you need to sparge? No, of course not. And by doing so, you lower your gravity. Most of the time you are going to be low, not high, and adding sparge water is going to make it worse. The mash process teaches you what your real efficiency is and how to hit your gravity from grain on a consistent basis

The argument against sparging isn't making any sense to me, unless you're doing a full volume mash. That extra water is going to be added at some point to reach the correct batch volume, either with top off or with some sparge plus some top off. You might as well get some extra gravity pts by sparging (to a point of course with partial mash, depending on the size of the grainbill you could risk oversparging to get to the total batch volume).

None of the above, matters for a partial mash brew. The whole point of partial mash is that you are trying to get some natural sugars, and more important, flavors and aroma from actual grains. The majority of your sugars is going to come from extracts. So a sparge isn't needed for partial mash, because you are not looking to get every last bit of sugar from your grain in order to hit your gravity.

At most you may get half a point of gravity from a sparge. Typically it isn't worth it, which is why a lot of people do a recirculating mash process which negates the need, while gaining more efficiency.

It sounds like you are talking about extract with steeping grains. In this case about 60% of the fermentables in the OP's recipe are coming from his/her mash.

I did a batch yesterday with similar numbers to what the OP is planning and I measured the first runnings and the runnings from my batch sparge. 20% of my gravity pts came from the batch sparge.

 

[Spelaeus]

A lot of people commenting here are ignoring a key fact - measuring the gravity of the mash wort should be the #1 factor of how much water is being used. Yes, you need a baseline to start off at, so whether you use a calculator or use the 1.5 qt/lb ratio as your starting point is subjective. To that argument, if you are at your gravity, do you need to sparge? No, of course not. And by doing so, you lower your gravity. Most of the time you are going to be low, not high, and adding sparge water is going to make it worse. The mash process teaches you what your real efficiency is and how to hit your gravity from grain on a consistent basis.

None of the above, matters for a partial mash brew. The whole point of partial mash is that you are trying to get some natural sugars, and more important, flavors and aroma from actual grains. The majority of your sugars is going to come from extracts. So a sparge isn't needed for partial mash, because you are not looking to get every last bit of sugar from your grain in order to hit your gravity.

At most you may get half a point of gravity from a sparge. Typically it isn't worth it, which is why a lot of people do a recirculating mash process which negates the need, while gaining more efficiency.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

The only reason I suggest a sparge is because, working with such a small boil kettle and with the water that's going to be absorbed by the grains, he is almost definitely going to want to add some water for a pre-boil volume. Being in the same boat, I tend to want to run that water through the grains just to get a bit more of what's trapped in there into the boil if water is going to be added no matter what. Honestly, I won't even necessarily do a hot sparge. This may be as simple and as lazy as doing a mash-out to decrease the viscosity of the wort trapped in the grain, lift the bag (place on a grate over the boil kettle if possible), and pour room temp water through it.

 

[brent1769]

A lot of people commenting here are ignoring a key fact - measuring the gravity of the mash wort should be the #1 factor of how much water is being used. Yes, you need a baseline to start off at, so whether you use a calculator or use the 1.5 qt/lb ratio as your starting point is subjective. To that argument, if you are at your gravity, do you need to sparge? No, of course not. And by doing so, you lower your gravity. Most of the time you are going to be low, not high, and adding sparge water is going to make it worse. The mash process teaches you what your real efficiency is and how to hit your gravity from grain on a consistent basis.

None of the above, matters for a partial mash brew. The whole point of partial mash is that you are trying to get some natural sugars, and more important, flavors and aroma from actual grains. The majority of your sugars is going to come from extracts. So a sparge isn't needed for partial mash, because you are not looking to get every last bit of sugar from your grain in order to hit your gravity.

At most you may get half a point of gravity from a sparge. Typically it isn't worth it, which is why a lot of people do a recirculating mash process which negates the need, while gaining more efficiency.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

I wish I would if read this before I made my batch. That would of been really good to know. I will say I got pretty lucky than because my target

 

[brent1769]

Ignore my last post it was I was trying to cancel my post but it posted

 

[MindenMan]

For me personally, I have to disagree. For the longest time, I sparged to the calculated number, and usually hit it pretty close. A while back, I was having a bad O.G. day, and decided to add a gallon of water to the grain bed to see if it would help... I gave it a stir, and 10 minutes later I had 1 gallon of 1.030 that helped instead of diluting, so now I always add the "extra" gallon, and even if it is lower than 1.030, I use it to build starters.

 

[trboyden]

You cannot sparge to a higher gravity. That's a myth, and one pretty easy to debunk if you are actually measuring gravity. Say the initial drain from the mash is 1.06 gravity and then you sparge with a gallon of water and the runnings from the sparge are 1.02 gravity. The total isn't 1.08 gravity because you changed the total volume of water. It would be more like 1.045 to 1.05 gravity into the boiling pot.

That's why extract kits have a high initial gravity, because they anticipate you adding water to get your total volume. Adding water lowers gravity by dilution.

Also the OP's recipe isn't half grain. DME is equal to 1.5 the equivalent grain. So the DME is actually equal to 4.5 lbs of grain at 100% efficiency (because it's pure fermentables). The 6 lbs. of 2-row at 1.03 potential, at 72% efficiency at best, is maybe 4.5 lbs of grain at 100% efficiency. The aromatic and Carmel aren't base malts so don't really add anything to the overall gravity. Normally you don't even mash them to get their intended effects.

All sparging does is rinse residual sugar from the grains. If your initial grain calculation for the intended final volume was high enough in the first place, you won't need a sparge to hit a gravity. The only way to reach a higher gravity if you missed your grain potential calculation is either to do another mash with more grains, or add DME or corn sugar. Which is why keeping DME on hand is always recommended (that and for creating starters).

You don't have to take my word for it, it's a simple experiment. Make a pot on your stove with DME, measure the gravity, add water, and measure it again. Your gravity will be lower. It's no different with grains in a mash.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Spelaeus]

You cannot sparge to a higher gravity. That's a myth, and one pretty easy to debunk if you are actually measuring gravity. Say the initial drain from the mash is 1.06 gravity and then you sparge with a gallon of water and the runnings from the sparge are 1.02 gravity. The total isn't 1.08 gravity because you changed the total volume of water. It would be more like 1.045 to 1.05 gravity into the boiling pot.

That's why extract kits have a high initial gravity, because they anticipate you adding water to get your total volume. Adding water lowers gravity by dilution.

Also the OP's recipe isn't half grain. DME is equal to 1.5 the equivalent grain. So the DME is actually equal to 4.5 lbs of grain at 100% efficiency (because it's pure fermentables). The 6 lbs. of 2-row at 1.03 potential, at 72% efficiency at best, is maybe 4.5 lbs of grain at 100% efficiency. The aromatic and Carmel aren't base malts so don't really add anything to the overall gravity. Normally you don't even mash them to get their intended effects.

All sparging does is rinse residual sugar from the grains. If your initial grain calculation for the intended final volume was high enough in the first place, you won't need a sparge to hit a gravity. The only way to reach a higher gravity if you missed your grain potential calculation is either to do another mash with more grains, or add DME or corn sugar. Which is why keeping DME on hand is always recommended (that and for creating starters).

You don't have to take my word for it, it's a simple experiment. Make a pot on your stove with DME, measure the gravity, add water, and measure it again. Your gravity will be lower. It's no different with grains in a mash.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

You're missing a pretty important piece of the puzzle here, which is that the volume left over from the mash is significantly lower than the target volume. And it will have to be given kettle size limitations. As such, Brent will HAVE to be adding water at some point. We all know sparge runnings are lower gravity than your initial mash runnings. But you're still increasing the OG of the wort that actually goes into the fermenter by increasing volume with the addition of sparge runnings vs. straight water. Doing a no-sparge and having the full target volume with no further water additions was never an option.

 

[trboyden]

Using my example, here is the calculation from Beer Smith on what a sparge would do to your gravity:

 

[trboyden]

You're missing a pretty important piece of the puzzle here, which is that the volume left over from the mash is significantly lower than the target volume. And it will have to be given kettle size limitations. As such, Brent will HAVE to be adding water at some point. We all know sparge runnings are lower gravity than your initial mash runnings. But you're still increasing the OG of the wort that actually goes into the fermenter by increasing volume with the addition of sparge runnings vs. straight water. Doing a no-sparge and having the full target volume with no further water additions was never an option.

That's only if you ignore the point that you can reach the same volume AND keep the gravity the same by adding fermentables to the boil and adding straight water to the fermenter. Which is preferred, because you can then add ice water, therefore reducing temperature to pitching temps faster, thus shortening the brew session and time open to contaminants. A sparge for partial mash is pointless.

 

[chickypad]

Dude, no one is arguing that you're going to bring the OG of your first runnings up by sparging, of course you don't. The first runnings are always higher than the target pre-boil gravity of the recipe, unless you are doing a full volume mash. But as Spelaeus noted you are missing the point. You are still getting some sugars from the sparge, that 1.020 for example has 20 more gravity pts per gallon than the top off water that you would need to get to your batch volume. As I mentioned on my last batch the sparge accounted for 20% of my fermentables. That was the difference between a 1.056 beer and a 1.045 beer, or the difference betwewn 62 and 75% efficiency. If you want to throw away those gravity pts and top off with water fine, but not me.

That's also not accurate about the aromatic and caramel. Aromatic is like a strong Munich, you need to mash to get anything, but you will get gravity pts from it - it has a 1.036 ppg potential. Mashing caramel malt with a base malt actually yields more than steeping alone as some nice experiments on here by brewer Nilo show. Even steeping you do get some gravity pts (though they will be about 50% non fermentable as I recall from Nilo's experiements). And you seem to be making my point about the partial mash - the grain is accounting for at least 50% of the fermentables (more in my calculations) which is not as you seemed to suggest before an insignificant amount.

 

[trboyden]

That's only if you ignore the point that you can reach the same volume AND keep the gravity the same by adding fermentables to the boil and adding straight water to the fermenter. Which is preferred, because you can then add ice water, therefore reducing temperature to pitching temps faster, thus shortening the brew session and time open to contaminants. A sparge for partial mash is pointless.

And I should add that this is only necessary if the original gravity of the mash was not correct for the intended gravity of the beer going into the fermenter.

Given that the OP's pre-boil gravity is only 1.049, I am assuming his gravity is lower than intended. Because the beer will likely end up in the low 1.04's or high 1.03's after fermenting and bottling. That's a pretty weak strength beer.

 

[trboyden]

Dude, no one is arguing that you're going to bring the OG of your first runnings up by sparging, of course you don't. The first runnings are always higher than the target gravity of the recipe, unless you are doing a full volume mash. But as Spelaeus noted you are missing the point. You are still getting some sugars from the sparge, that 1.020 for example has 20 more gravity pts per gallon than the top off water that you would need to get to your batch volume. As I mentioned on my last batch the sparge accounted for 20% of my fermentables. That was the difference between a 1.056 beer and a 1.045 beer, or the difference betwewn 62 and 75% efficiency. If you want to throw away those gravity pts and top off with water fine, but not me.

That's also not accurate about the aromatic and caramel. Aromatic is like a strong Munich, you need to mash to get anything, but you will get gravity pts from it - it has a 1.036 ppg potential. Mashing caramel malt with a base malt actually yields more than steeping alone as some nice experiments on here by brewer Nilo show. Even steeping you do get some gravity pts (though they will be about 50% non fermentable as I recall from Nilo's experiements). And you seem to be making my point about the partial mash - the grain is accounting for at least 50% of the fermentables (more in my calculations) which is not as you seemed to suggest before an insignificant amount.

No, I am arguing that the method advocated misses two key aspects to growing a brewer's skills. Proper grain potential calculation for a given pre-fermenter volume, and how to adjust a volume of a batch (when limited by equipment) WITHOUT losing gravity. Sparging fixes a volume issue with the consequence of losing gravity. Is it better than just adding straight water, marginally yes. But that ignores there being other better methods of fixing a volume issue related to under-sized equipment. The best solution is more grain/higher initial gravity at mash time, allowing the brewer to add water into the fermenter. Basically concentrating the mash and then diluting it to volume. No sparge required. The second best, if you missed mash gravity, is adding ferementables to the boil, and then adding straight water to the fermenter. Third is sparging if you have no other choice to reach pre-fermenter volume.

As far as the fermentability of specialty malt, at the volumes listed, the effect is marginal. In this case only .003 gravity points. You wouldn't even notice that without measuring. In higher volumes, yes they can play a factor. If you mash aromatics, you lose their aromatic properties in the boil, just like aromatic hops. Aromatics are delicate and should be done late boil/during whirlpooling.

Gravity minus specialty malts (1.046 versus 1.049):

Real gravity calculations of 20% of gravity being sparge versus water (loss of .09 points versus .14):

 

[chickypad]

Sparging fixes a volume issue with the consequence of losing gravity. Is it better than just adding straight water, marginally yes. But that ignores there being other better methods of fixing a volume issue related to under-sized equipment. The best solution is more grain/higher initial gravity at mash time, allowing the brewer to add water into the fermenter. Basically concentrating the mash and then diluting it to volume.

Okay, so you're saying rather than get as much potential from the grain as you can by mashing and sparging, add more grain initially to your mash to achieve a higher gravity so you can then top off with plain water rather than sparging. That's fine if you want to do that, I don't agree it's the best solution. In this scenario I wasn't considering a full volume mash, if I had the room I'd probably do that more often. But not being able to fit it, I see sparging as the preferred option to topping off with water.

The second best, if you missed mash gravity, is adding ferementables to the boil, and then adding straight water to the fermenter. Third is sparging if you have no other choice to reach pre-fermenter volume.

Here if I understand you're saying it's preferable to add extract to get the extra gravity pts and top off with plain water, rather than sparging to volume and getting the extra gravity pts that way. Again, that's fine if you want to do it but in my mind why waste the extract?

As far as the fermentability of specialty malt, at the volumes listed, the effect is marginal. In this case only .003 gravity points. You wouldn't even notice that without measuring.

Actually, those 2 lbs of specialty grains if mashed with base malt and figuring about 72% efficiency will get you about 50 gravity pts, or 10 ppg for a 5 gallon batch.

If you mash aromatics, you lose their aromatic properties in the boil, just like aromatic hops. Aromatics are delicate and should be done late boil/during whirlpooling.

Okay now you've just lost me. Are you equating aromatic malt to aromatic hops, and saying that you'd better not mash aromatic malt? I think I'd better bow out of the discussion at this point because one of us has lost the plot.

 

[Yooper]

If I were doing a partial mash, no way I'd try to do a full boil. I'd get by on as little water as possible and then top off (with ice cold water) to 5.5 gallons in the fermenter. This will make cooling the wort much faster and easier.

That's too bad, because a full boil would make a much better beer. Not only would the hops utilization be better (due to dilution), but there would be less maillard reactions and a less 'condensed' extract flavor in the finished beer.

It does take longer to cool a full boil batch, but that is something to consider when doing larger boils. In general, the bigger the boil (the more wort in the boil kettle), the better the beer.

My eyes sort of glazed over at the other posts arguing about sparging/no sparging, but either technique is fine. Either a full volume mash, or a 'regular' mash with sparging is fine. The mash/sparge technique may work well for some, while the no-sparge works great for others. It's really not important either way.

 

[trboyden]

By all means, please bow out, because I am not advocating anything different than John Palmer does in "How to Brew". I offered up three different way to achieve pre-fermenter volume using under-sized equipment. Best is a concentrated mash/wort (just like extract kits do - boil 3 gallons, top off to 5 with water), second is adding fermentables (could just be corn sugar) to boil, and third is sparge.

Your failure to understand basic math (and the graphs used to demonstrate the point) is not my problem. The OP wants to know what the right methods are, and those are they. Why introduce an inferior method upfront, when he can start off right? Grain is cheap and if you don't need the sparge in the first place, why waste the time and effort?

 

[trboyden]

That's too bad, because a full boil would make a much better beer. Not only would the hops utilization be better (due to dilution), but there would be less maillard reactions and a less 'condensed' extract flavor in the finished beer.

It does take longer to cool a full boil batch, but that is something to consider when doing larger boils. In general, the bigger the boil (the more wort in the boil kettle), the better the beer.

My eyes sort of glazed over at the other posts arguing about sparging/no sparging, but either technique is fine. Either a full volume mash, or a 'regular' mash with sparging is fine. The mash/sparge technique may work well for some, while the no-sparge works great for others. It's really not important either way.

I agree, an investment in larger equipment is the way to go towards better beer. But it's a mistake to think sparging is a cure-all for an undersized equipment issue, without recognizing you'll affect your final gravity. There is just better ways to achieving the required volume and keep your gravity up. That was my point.

 

[chickypad]

Your failure to understand basic math (and the graphs used to demonstrate the point) is not my problem. The OP wants to know what the right methods are, and those are they. Why introduce an inferior method upfront, when he can start off right? Grain is cheap and if you don't need the sparge in the first place, why waste the time and effort?

No reason to get nasty, I understand the math perfectly. You and I disagree on the best way to use the grain.

For the OP, good luck on your batch and sorry we kind of derailed your thread. I think you will find there are many ways to skin a cat with this hobby. Find the one that makes the most sense and works best for you.

 

[Spelaeus]

I agree, an investment in larger equipment is the way to go towards better beer. But it's a mistake to think sparging is a cure-all for an undersized equipment issue, without recognizing you'll affect your final gravity. There is just better ways to achieving the required volume and keep your gravity up. That was my point.

But that's really not the point you're making. Here's what you're missing: In a five gallon pot, you're really not going to be mashing in more than three gallons of water due to size constraints. The grain is going to absorb roughly 0.8qt/lb. So in this recipe, after removing the grain, there will be right around one and a half gallons of concentrated wort in the pot. This needs to be topped off pre-boil, he's not going to be boiling 1.5 gallons of wort and then topping off with water later. So, you add water pre-boil. In this case, it's best to sparge because that gets the most out of the grains you're using. You're instead advocating topping off with straight water and wasting the sugars still in that grain, and instead making up the difference by... purchasing more grain. This doesn't increase your yield, you're just making up for efficiency lost by not sparging. But, remember volume limitations again. More grain means a larger mash, and we're already hitting the limits of a 5 gallon pot here. More grain means more water lost too, and ultimately a hit in your efficiency (larger grain bills do suffer a hit in efficiency in BIAB due to just having a larger mass of grain in the bag relative to the surface area, more sugar gets trapped). You gain nothing by swapping out sparging for additional grain, you're just spending more money for no real reason and pushing the limits of a limited system even more. Your no-sparge solution would be feasible if the pot were significantly larger than what was needed for the full boil and he could get away with mashing in, say, 6-7 gallons of water. Low mash thickness and being able to have your full pre-boil volume after grain absorption really can remove the need for a sparge. But it's a recipe question, and we're dealing with the realities of the system being used.

There are really two ways being advocated to reach the expected gravity here. 1) Boost efficiency as much as possible to get the most fermentable sugar out of the existing grain. Since post-mash, pre-boil water additions are necessary anyway, sparging is an ideal way to make these volume additions WHILE boosting efficiency. 2) Ignore efficient brewing techniques and just add more grain to account for your self-imposed poor efficiency, then dilute with straight water to reach the same gravity that you would have had with your sparge additions. Method 1 makes a wort that is then diluted to a lesser extent with volume additions that contain fermentables, method 2 makes a more concentrated wort that is diluted more with straight water. You get to the same place after the volume additions, method 2 is just more wasteful.

Edit: You're also acting like sparging is some big time consuming process. It's not. With BIAB? Yeah, you could get away with just pouring warm or even room-temp water through your grain bag and probably hit around 75% efficiency. Sparge properly and you might be looking at 80%+ efficiency. Honestly... my sparging is frequently lazy. We're literally talking about the difference between pouring straight water, or pouring it through grain while holding the bag above the water. It's not some great sacrifice in time and effort.

 

[trboyden]

OMG. His recipe calls for mashing 8 pounds of grain. If you can't fit in an extra pound of 2-Row in a 5 gallon pot, at a whole $1.30, that would more than make up for what you'd get in a sparge, you have a problem. Plus this is partial mash, not all grain. The most important fermentables are the DME in the boil pot. The grain is just for taste. So efficiency is a moot point. Now when and if he goes to all grain, yes, you'll want to get as much potential out of the larger volume of grain. So what you're saying then makes some sense, but has been mostly replaced by HERMS and RIMS practices, which again for most people, eliminate the need for a sparge. I do BIAB with a recirculating mash. I never have had to do a sparge to hit gravity/volume.

Really what should be being advocated, is having the OP mash in a cooler (a cheap investment), where he could do a full mash. He'd still have to do a higher gravity mash though, because he can only boil 3.5 to 4 gallons of wort (same 5 gallon pot). Which means he'd still have to add water to the fermenter anyways to get 5 gallons of pre-fermenter volume. So what do you want him to do, thin down the gravity of his boil wort, only to have to water it down again to get to fermenter volume? At some point he is going to have to make up the gravity short-fall, either up-front in the mash, or during boil with DME or corn sugar.

 

[Spelaeus]

What should be advocated is how the OP can get the most out of the equipment and recipe that he's already working with. Which is all anyone else has been doing. And yes, he's going to have to thin it down pre-boil, and then again in the fermenter. He'd have to with your method too. That's kind of unavoidable when all you're using is a 5 gallon pot. It's also not a huge issue... if you actually work with what you have instead of trying to force it to work better with somebody else's preferences and setup.

 

[trboyden]

What should be advocated is how the OP can get the most out of the equipment and recipe that he's already working with. Which is all anyone else has been doing. And yes, he's going to have to thin it down pre-boil, and then again in the fermenter. He'd have to with your method too. That's kind of unavoidable when all you're using is a 5 gallon pot. It's also not a huge issue... if you actually work with what you have instead of trying to force it to work better with somebody else's preferences and setup.

So you think it's better to let him go through all the effort to end up with a weak beer, rather than inform him of the issues he faces and help him fix it up front? Because that is what you are basically saying. He is going to be short on gravity because of the water additions (regardless how he does it), so he can either 1) do a stronger mash, or 2) add extra DME at boil time. That will help him out and he will enjoy his results more.

That's all I have been saying but you all want to jump all over me because I am not preaching your glorious sparge method, which isn't all it's cracked up to be in this case, because wort volume isn't the root issue here. It's having enough gravity to support the inevitable water/sparge additions so he doesn't end up with a weak beer. There are easy ways to address that, and I mentioned them all previously.

 

[chickypad]

OMG. His recipe calls for mashing 8 pounds of grain. If you can't fit in an extra pound of 2-Row in a 5 gallon pot, at a whole $1.30, that would more than make up for what you'd get in a sparge, you have a problem. Plus this is partial mash, not all grain. The most important fermentables are the DME in the boil pot. The grain is just for taste. So efficiency is a moot point. Now when and if he goes to all grain, yes, you'll want to get as much potential out of the larger volume of grain. So what you're saying then makes some sense, but has been mostly replaced by HERMS and RIMS practices, which again for most people, eliminate the need for a sparge. I do BIAB with a recirculating mash. I never have had to do a sparge to hit gravity/volume..

Please stop telling the OP the grain is just for taste. Yes it's a partial mash, but at 8 lb its a fairly good sized one and as big as some 5 gal all grain batches. There's only 3 lb of DME in the recipe, or 135 gravity pts. On the other hand the OP should get over 200 pts from his partial mash with average efficiency. You may not care what that efficiency is, but with this size mash it will impact his recipe if it's way off.

HERMS and RIMS are more about recirculating the mash and temp control than about the choice to sparge or not. Most folks with those systems either fly sparge or do full volume mash with no sparge. I haven't run into anyone routinely topping off with water unless they aren't doing a full boil.

 

[Spelaeus]

He's not ending up with weak beer. The point of sparging is to increase his efficiency. What you're being jumped on for is suggesting that he needs to change his recipe because you somehow have a misconception that sparging will ruin his gravity. It won't. With his recipe, he's looking at about a 1.063 OG in a 5.5gal batch at 75% efficiency. People have given him suggestions to best meet those very reasonable numbers. You've been telling him he should change his recipe so he can have a larger grain bill, where grain bill size is already an issue. There's no reason for it, and your initial claims that sparging would lower his OG are... outright false. You're not being jumped on for offering an alternative plan of action, it's for offering erroneous information to a new brewer on a tried-and-true method that would be useful here. Last time I'm going to respond here.

 

[trboyden]

Your erroneous information regarding sparging effecting gravity has already been disproved using the BeerSmith Dilution calculator in my previous posts. You've already admitted that by sparging he is going to dilute his batch twice - once at boil time and again to top off the fermenter. So why keep spouting this delusional nonsense? There is no way with that fermentables bill that he is going to get a 1.065 gravity beer. Again, already posted the calculations from BeerSmith that show that at best, he'll get a 1.049 beer, and that's if the yeast fully convert all of the sugars down to 1.012, which is highly unlikely, especially for a novice brewer.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Spelaeus]

... You have to dilute twice no matter what, this has been covered. The question is just whether you're doing it with sparge runnings or straight water the first time. And done now.

 

[trboyden]

And that is more erroneous B.S. If his fermentables bill takes the gravity into account for the fermenter addition, you do not need to do the pre-boil dilution step. Just the fermenter one.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Spelaeus]

I really should know better than to keep getting pulled back into this, but you're giving some seriously bad advice. It seems like you've forgotten that grain ABSORBS water. Quite a bit. As I already stated, he's looking at about 1.5 gallons pre-boil given what's left behind in the grain (you know, what you try to get back out with sparging). 2 gallons if he squeezes a whole bunch and gets lucky. You want him to do a 1.5 gallon, super-concentrated boil when he has a 5 gallon pot to play with? That's risking some serious scorching and caramelization. Also, your whole "two dilutions" issue is pointless. He has to add enough water throughout this process to reach his final volume. The pre-boil additions give the proven benefits of the largest boil his vessel can allow (yes, this does make a difference) as WELL as being able to improve his efficiency with the provided grain bill via sparging. Which is actually helpful. Adding some liquid pre-boil and some in the fermenter isn't diluting it any more than adding it all at the end. It just allows for a larger volume boil, and thanks to sparging, an improved efficiency.

Additionally, that 1.049 is a number you created by ignoring the specialty grain additions which DO produce fermentable sugars when mashed. Look at the image you yourself created just before that which includes the specialty grains. It lists 1.058 or 1.059 (can't quite see which). Why is that still lower than what I stated? Because you have a 65% total efficiency plugged in. Which is absurdly low.

 

[brent1769]

Ok this is what I did.
And everything turned out great so far.
I did a 3 gallon mash 1 gallon
sparge.
3lbs dme
Along with 1 lbs corn sugar
My target gravity was 1.079 and I got 1.070