Help with bottling Hoppy beers

[derekcw83]

So I have pinpointed my issues to only my heavily hopped beers. Some say in the all grain forum that it is my water quality.

Others say it is oxidation due to all the hops in these beers and transferring and bottling could be starting the oxidation process, and happening faster with the hops.

If the latter is true, BESIDES kegging due to costs and such, what other steps can I take to bottle my IPA's with success? Is purging bottling bucket or bottles a possiblity?

Currently I am producing good beers of all other styles

Thanks guys!

 

[Mexibilly]

Oxidation is your issue?
What is the symptom?
What water do you use?
What's your hoppy brew day routine?
What's your dry hop routine?
What's your bottling day routine?

 

[derekcw83]

Oxidation is your issue?
What is the symptom?
What water do you use?
What's your hoppy brew day routine?
What's your dry hop routine?
What's your bottling day routine?

I can't give you the best description of the symptom, definitely a loss in aroma, a sharp bitterness, and these characteristics are not present on bottling day, and steadily these off flavors/ aroma come with time, usually within a week they are pretty noticeable, and by 3 weeks, it's evident, and expected aroma is gone completely.

I was using publix spring, but I have began building my own from RO Primo water.

brew day routine is quite normal, mashing at 150, in a cooler, sparging for about an hour, boiling for an hour usually, with clone recipes, lots of late addition hops.

Dry hopping is usually done about a week prior to bottling, pellets directly in glass carboy, in fermentation fridge, for 4 days, cold crashing for 3 days.

On bottling day I rack to a bottling bucket using an auto siphon, with priming sugar already in bucket. Then I bottle from there using a bottling wand.

Should I be filling the bottles to capacity? I usually stop when beer hits the top, but I lose an inch when I remove the wand.

 

[hobomoto]

I know, I know... you said besides kegging... but hear me out since the only prohibitive factor you listed to kegging was cost.

Since I started kegging my ipas, I can't ever imagine bottling an ipa ever again. I was never ever able to achieve the bright, fresh and incredibly potent hoppy aroma that I am getting now with bottling. Avoiding o2 is paramount it seems.

If you are thinking about using co2 to purge your bucket and bottles or something to that effect then you are going to need a co2 tank and a regulator and then you are already half way there. You don't need a kegerator. A cheap fridge and cobra taps works great.

I got my 5lb co2 tank and micromatic regulator off craigslist for 60 dollars. A fridge off craigslist can be had for lets say 30 or less. A used keg, 50. Cobra tap and some lines/various small kegging bits and pieces, 20 bucks. So 150 total to start kegging.

Sure there may be some elaborate method method out there but for your time, money and effort... 150 dollars to start producing fantastic ipas is hard to beat espescially if in the meantime you are making 50 dollar batches of beer you are unhappy with, not to mention the time spent waiting for those beers to be ready.

 

[hobomoto]

Sorry, to answer your question about bottling: yes you should be leaving that inch of headspace.

Once again, I apologize because you clearly stated for options besides kegging.

 

[derek8307]

Sorry, to answer your question about bottling: yes you should be leaving that inch of headspace.

Once again, I apologize because you clearly stated for options besides kegging.

What exactly is the need for that head space? Wouldn't I be lessening the oxygen exposure by filling to the rim and capping that way?

 

[Torrefaction]

Hi,
Same problem here. On my last batch I decided not to cold crash, since my second-last IPA took over a month to carb, and cold crashing slows the process by a factor of N. This second-last IPA has lost all distinct hop character, but is still a good beer; the problem was I couldn't start enjoying it till it was 4-5 weeks old. On my latest batch, bottles were ready after only 5 days. After 1-2 days in the fridge: bam! No off flavours (3 weeks primary + dry hop takes care of that, methinks) and I can really taste/smell the distinct character of the columbus, chinook and citra I put in there. From now on (since I too can't get a keg setup for awhile) I'm going to continue with a relatively long primary fermentation (20+ days), a short (4-5 days) but massive dry hop (4 OZ or so) and definitely skip the cold crash. My latest batch is my fave IPA yet.

 

[hobomoto]

What exactly is the need for that head space? Wouldn't I be lessening the oxygen exposure by filling to the rim and capping that way?

Honestly, I can't think of a reason why zero head space couldn't work but I'm kinda out of my element with breaking convention there. I just followed directions my whole homebrew career when I was told to leave it.

I can figure from what I know, that carbonation will be effected. Less headspace = more carbonation. How much? Not sure. I imagine some headspace could act as a buffer to bottle bombs since the gas would have a place to go and compress.

Maybe someone more knowledgable can chime in and help out?

 

[hobomoto]

Hi,
Same problem here. On my last batch I decided not to cold crash, since my second-last IPA took over a month to carb, and cold crashing slows the process by a factor of N. This second-last IPA has lost all distinct hop character, but is still a good beer; the problem was I couldn't start enjoying it till it was 4-5 weeks old. On my latest batch, bottles were ready after only 5 days. After 1-2 days in the fridge: bam! No off flavours (3 weeks primary + dry hop takes care of that, methinks) and I can really taste/smell the distinct character of the columbus, chinook and citra I put in there. From now on (since I too can't get a keg setup for awhile) I'm going to continue with a relatively long primary fermentation (20+ days), a short (4-5 days) but massive dry hop (4 OZ or so) and definitely skip the cold crash. My latest batch is my fave IPA yet.

That I believe is one huge benefit to kegging: you can cold crash and carbonation won't be effected. You can still drink the beer in a relatively short period of time after packaging.

But honestly, if you can avoid o2 exposure, I've come to believe your IPAs will retain their hoppiness with regards to aroma and flavor for quite sometime. I have an IPA on tap now that I dry hopped in the primary carboy, transfered via co2 to a purged keg, purged the headspace multiple times afterwards then carbed, and over a month later has remained absolutely amazing in its hoppy aroma and flavor... if anything the hoppiness was too intense and is now perfect.

Kegging has been the biggest game changer for my home brewed ipas hands down and I honestly think it all comes down to oxygen avoidance.

Don't believe the "co2 blanket" theorists

 

[Torrefaction]

I think more headspace=more carbonation; that's why half-filled bottles can explode.

 

[derek8307]

I think more headspace=more carbonation; that's why half-filled bottles can explode.

Guys, check out this article, very informative about headspace:

www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/headspace.htm

I would venture to say the bottles can explode because there is more air for co2 pressure to build and not dissolve into solution.

Either way, I am going to try to reduce headspace dramatically on my next 2 batches and see what the effects are. Currently I am leaving about 2 inches or more of headspace. If this doesn't work, I may consider kegging.

But also, don't fill to rim because the beer does expand, and expanding liquid will guarantee a bottle bomb, much like expanding water when it becomes ice. At least that's what the article says

 

[hobomoto]

More headspace = more carbonation?

Hmmm... I was under the assumption it would be the opposite.

Kinda like when people reccomend using half the amount of priming sugar you would normally use for naturally carbing in a keg since the headspace of a keg is less proportionally to a bottle.

 

[derek8307]

If you check out that link, I think it explains that carbonation level isn't determined much by head space

 

[derek8307]

More headspace = more carbonation?

Hmmm... I was under the assumption it would be the opposite.

Kinda like when people reccomend using half the amount of priming sugar you would normally use for naturally carbing in a keg since the headspace of a keg is less proportionally to a bottle.

Here is what it says:

The Homebrew Digest back in 1996 describes some experiments run by Steve Alexander and Al Korzonas that prove this out. Check out http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/1938.html#1938-17 for example. As long as the beer still has some viable yeast, carbonation depends mainly on the amount of priming sugar, not on the headspace. Bottles with extra headspace will reach full carbonation faster, however. This is because the extra oxygen in the headspace allows the yeast a brief reproductive phase.

 

[hobomoto]

Yeah I read that and think I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong...

I think there is a big caveat to what he is saying and something we need to be aware of.

Its NOT just the amount of priming sugar that determines carbonation. Its both the amount of sugar and the size of the vessel that matter.

He is talking about adding the correct amount of sugar for the size of the vessel to fill it to the reccomended volumes of co2, say 2.5 or so.

Then yes, the amount of headspace would not matter. Similar to how with a keg hooked up to co2 at a set psi will carbonate the beer inside to the right amount of carbonation no matter the headspace. Its because you are adding amount of co2 to hit the correct volumes for the size of the vessel.

The problem with bottling, is thats not how we traditionally calculate our priming sugar addition, and I think the OP needs to be aware of that. It might make a difference, it might not for that one inch of headspace. But he should at least be aware of it.

Traditionally, priming sugar is added based on the volume of BEER not the volume of the beer's intended vessel. You can't tell me that 12 oz of beer with the correct amount of priming sugar for a 12 oz bottle will carbonate to the same level as that same 12 oz of beer in a 64 oz bottle. There won't be enough co2 produced to pressurize that size of a vessel unless you add the right amount of sugar to that 12 oz of beer to fill that whole 64 oz bottle with enough co2 to force the 12 oz of beer to carbonate to the right level.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[hobomoto]

At any rate, the effect of filling that one inch of headspace with beer probably won't make much of a difference.

But I don't think you can fill a bottle half way when you primed for the volume of your beer and get the same carbonation level.

Cheers!

 

[derekcw83]

Yeah I read that and think I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong...

I think there is a big caveat to what he is saying and something we need to be aware of.

Its NOT just the amount of priming sugar that determines carbonation. Its both the amount of sugar and the size of the vessel that matter.

He is talking about adding the correct amount of sugar for the size of the vessel to fill it to the reccomended volumes of co2, say 2.5 or so.

Then yes, the amount of headspace would not matter. Similar to how with a keg hooked up to co2 at a set psi will carbonate the beer inside to the right amount of carbonation no matter the headspace. Its because you are adding amount of co2 to hit the correct volumes for the size of the vessel.

The problem with bottling, is thats not how we traditionally calculate our priming sugar addition, and I think the OP needs to be aware of that. It might make a difference, it might not for that one inch of headspace. But he should at least be aware of it.

Traditionally, priming sugar is added based on the volume of BEER not the volume of the beer's intended vessel. You can't tell me that 12 oz of beer with the correct amount of priming sugar for a 12 oz bottle will carbonate to the same level as that same 12 oz of beer in a 64 oz bottle. There won't be enough co2 produced to pressurize that size of a vessel unless you add the right amount of sugar to that 12 oz of beer to fill that whole 64 oz bottle with enough co2 to force the 12 oz of beer to carbonate to the right level.

Hope that makes sense.

I completely understand, I think where he was talking about volume of vessel towards the end is about the expansion thing where liguid expands slightly depending on pressure, and if going from a cold crash to room temp, even more so.

But I do prime using my entire volume as my way to measure, not per bottle or sugar drop things, I boil the proper amount or corn sugar and place in bottling bucket prior to racking.

Apparently some people bottle IPA's with no problem, I wish I knew what they were doing that is different from my method

 

[JunkCatsOnThePorch]

I have been bottling for almost 4 years now, almost 50 5- gallon batches. It is no secret that the yeast in bottle conditioned beers will slowly eat away at added flavors such as hops, and impart their own over time. A lot of my hoppy beers that I aged have a diminished hop favor but still taste great.... But I agree that the aroma has defiantly dropped dramatically.

And I agree head space in bottles doesn't really make a difference. As long as their is some room for some bubbles when you open it so it doesn't over flow. Obviously a 3/4 filled bottle or one up to the brim isn't recommended.

Ok, now I gotta go dig some beers out of the closet and put them in the fridge.

 

[derekcw83]

I have been bottling for almost 4 years now, almost 50 5- gallon batches. It is no secret that the yeast in bottle conditioned beers will slowly eat away at added flavors such as hops, and impart their own over time. A lot of my hoppy beers that I aged have a diminished hop favor but still taste great.... But I agree that the aroma has defiantly dropped dramatically.

And I agree head space in bottles doesn't really make a difference. As long as their is some room for some bubbles when you open it so it doesn't over flow. Obviously a 3/4 filled bottle or one up to the brim isn't recommended.

Ok, now I gotta go dig some beers out of the closet and put them in the fridge.

Do you dry hop? If so, how? and do you do anything to purge your bottles or any particular technique to avoid oxidation?

 

[chieftain]

So I have pinpointed my issues to only my heavily hopped beers. Some say in the all grain forum that it is my water quality.

Others say it is oxidation due to all the hops in these beers and transferring and bottling could be starting the oxidation process, and happening faster with the hops.

If the latter is true, BESIDES kegging due to costs and such, what other steps can I take to bottle my IPA's with success? Is purging bottling bucket or bottles a possiblity?

Currently I am producing good beers of all other styles

Thanks guys!

So I looked up this thread since you said you were having problems on my thread. I'm kind of surprised no one drilled down on the water chemistry aspect. Definitely need to look into that - it made a big difference in my IPAs. I use Bru'n Water, and it's really pretty simple. Generally I'm adding 10g of gypsum and 4g of Epsom salts (for magnesium) to get the water profile I'm aiming for in 4-5 gallon batches. Have you explored this avenue further? Are you doing extract or all-grain?

 

[JunkCatsOnThePorch]

Do you dry hop? If so, how? and do you do anything to purge your bottles or any particular technique to avoid oxidation?

Alright, I went back and tried some older IPAs and couple other hoppy ones.

My conclusion: If you are bottle conditioning, I think there is a greater advantage to adding at FWH and flameout. The ones I did that with all still have a pretty pronounced hop character.

However, my IPAs that have sat for 4-6 months+ seem to have a stronger maltier character, hops are not as pronounced as with fresh IPAs.

This is just what I decided last night, sampling 4 "hoppy" style bottles. Some people may have a different explanation.

And sorry, no I do not purge my bottles. Although I would love to learn how. After I started kegging, I really wanted to do this when racking to secondary or bottling bucket. Purging 5 gallons worth of bottles seems kind of like a really hard to do task. Unless you had some kind of crazy CO2 press and release tap that may not exist... yet...

I dry hop with nylon bags. Forget the marbles IMO, the hop bag will sink on it's own. I tried it once with a stainless steel hop ball, I won't try that again as it rusted a bit... Cheap stuff I guess.

 

[JunkCatsOnThePorch]

So I looked up this thread since you said you were having problems on my thread. I'm kind of surprised no one drilled down on the water chemistry aspect. Definitely need to look into that - it made a big difference in my IPAs. I use Bru'n Water, and it's really pretty simple. Generally I'm adding 10g of gypsum and 4g of Epsom salts (for magnesium) to get the water profile I'm aiming for in 4-5 gallon batches. Have you explored this avenue further? Are you doing extract or all-grain?

This guy^

This is also great advice for me as well, have hardly got into accounting for minerals in my water. My brita tap seems to work well though...

 

[CUrchin]

I have been bottling for almost 4 years now, almost 50 5- gallon batches. It is no secret that the yeast in bottle conditioned beers will slowly eat away at added flavors such as hops, and impart their own over time. A lot of my hoppy beers that I aged have a diminished hop favor but still taste great.... But I agree that the aroma has defiantly dropped dramatically.

Editing my response- There are some world class bottled conditioned beers- Don't let bottle conditioning be an excuse for a poor IPA-- Locally here Maine Beer Company makes outstanding IPA's/IIPA's- Dinner, their double IPA, is currently #7 on Beer Advocate.

However-- ALL IPA's and hoppy beers should be consumed as soon as reasonably possible, regardless of how they are conditioned- Hops flavors and aromas will fade with time.

I recommend finding M00p's article that was on this forum recently regarding IPA's. There was some excellent information in that article- Forget the crystal malts, dry those IPA's out, mash low and long, whirlpool additions, water treatment, dry hopping, recommended hops ratio's, etc.

Cheers

 

[JunkCatsOnThePorch]

Agreed.

 

[FatDragon]

Editing my response- There are some world class bottled conditioned beers- Don't let bottle conditioning be an excuse for a poor IPA-- Locally here Maine Beer Company makes outstanding IPA's/IIPA's- Dinner, their double IPA, is currently #7 on Beer Advocate.

I believe most pro breweries ferment and package on closed systems where the beer is oxygenated before fermentation and then doesn't see O2 again until you open the bottle. Doing that as a homebrewer is not impossible, but you basically have to have and entire kegging system (plus other equipment) engineered for closed-system fermentation, transfer, and bottling (into CO2-purged bottles) to mimic that process. It can be done, but it requires a lot more space, investment, and expertise than the typical homebrew bottling process.

All that to say that bringing up professional bottle-conditioned IPAs doesn't really offer a lot into the homebrew discussion.

My experience bottling IPAs: sometimes they're great in the bottle and keep well, often they lose a lot in the bottle. Overdoing the late and dry hops help to compensate for aroma loss from the transfer, conditioning, and age, but the biggest thing for me has simply been to fasttrack it so I'm never drinking a 3-4 month old IPA.

 

[derekcw83]

So I looked up this thread since you said you were having problems on my thread. I'm kind of surprised no one drilled down on the water chemistry aspect. Definitely need to look into that - it made a big difference in my IPAs. I use Bru'n Water, and it's really pretty simple. Generally I'm adding 10g of gypsum and 4g of Epsom salts (for magnesium) to get the water profile I'm aiming for in 4-5 gallon batches. Have you explored this avenue further? Are you doing extract or all-grain?

I am doing all grain, kept getting the twang from extract, so glad I changed over. Then I started to make my own water profile. That is yet to be determined if a source of my off flavors, just getting those batches bottled last week. Now I've suspected oxidation, both in bottles and during cold crashing. After removing all possible sources, I just might have to consider kegging. I really can't stand not being able to brew a good ipa.