Help!! Why does my starter look like this

[kegtoe]

I have been doing yeast starters for the last 8 batches of mine or so. My 2 favorite yeasts have been the white labs east coast ale and the california.

I started a yeast starter on Thursday night for my saturday (today) brew day. However, the starter never had any krausen and the yeast looks to be settling into little balls in the boottom of the flask. When i swirl the flask i get a lot of movement through my air lock. This is an idication to me that the yeast is ok, making CO2. PLease help. Is this OK to use in my beer?? what might be the cause of these little balls?

 

[Hammy71]

What kind of yeast is it? Looks a little like 002. Some yeast strains look alot different from others.

 

[kegtoe]

i forgot to put that i am using a white labes yeast called German Ale / Kolsch

 

[jspence1]

why are you using an air lock on a starter?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

why are you using an air lock on a starter?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That may be your problem

 

[maztec]

Okay. I'll bight. Why would using an air lock on a starter be a problem? I can only assume it is because you want to keep the starter oxygen rich, and an air lock would starve it of oxygen. Except, then what do you do to seal off the starter so it does not get infected?

 

[pkeeler]

Does it smell good? I use an airlock on my starter, that shouldn't be any problem at all. I've never used that yeast, but some of those German yeasts work best at 55-60 F. If your starter is 70-75, it might have finished its fermentation overnight.

 

[Beezer94]

What I remember is you use foil to cover starters, because you want some air exchange to keep the yeast plenty oxygenated. As long as foil is over it, nothing can fall in, so no problems with infections.

Secondly some yeast has a "chunky" look to it, nothing wrong with it, just different strains.

 

[kegtoe]

Why in the hell would i not use an air lock. If my starter is made from the same things i make my wort with, AND i sanatize everything that comes in contact with my wort, Why would i not put an air lock on it??? Is this common practice by some of you?????

Yes it smells good, a little like wort and a lot like yeast. The temp maybe the key here. it has been warm lately in N Minnesota ~80F and the house has been warmer than usual ~70. Maybe it was a touch warm for this yeast.

 

[jgourd]

Why in the hell would i not use an air lock. If my starter is made from the same things i make my wort with, AND i sanatize everything that comes in contact with my wort, Why would i not put an air lock on it??? Is this common practice by some of you?????

Yes it smells good, a little like wort and a lot like yeast. The temp maybe the key here. it has been warm lately in N Minnesota ~80F and the house has been warmer than usual ~70. Maybe it was a touch warm for this yeast.

The idea behind a starter is to grow yeast. And for that, we need plenty of oxygen. So we usually use a stir plate to "suck in" O2 and put some foil over the top to keep the bad stuff out. I've never used an airlock on a starter. I've never had any problems with a bad starter. But that's just me.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Palmer in "How to Brew":

"Shake the starter vigorously to aerate it. Remove and discard the plastic wrap, insert an airlock and put it somewhere out of direct sunlight. (So it doesn't get too hot in the sun.) If you don't have an airlock that will fit, don't worry. Instead, put a clean piece of plastic wrap over the jar or bottle and secure it loosely with a rubber band. This way the escaping carbon dioxide will be able to vent without exposing the starter to the air."

 

[pkeeler]

I think your yeast just worked fast with the higher temp.; you would have to hope it would smell off if something else was living in there. The airlock stuff should be in another thread, but I can't see what advantage you could get to not using one. If airborne bacteria are not getting in, it is because air is not getting in. So, there is no benefit to not using an airlock and an enhanced risk of contamination.

 

[EricCSU]

A lot of people (myself included) on HBT use a sanitized piece of foil over the flask. The theory is that it allows for better yeast growth by allowing more oxygen in without allowing bugs to fall in. I have never had a sanitation issue in my starter.

Eric

 

[Reno_eNVy]

A lot of people (myself included) on HBT use a sanitized piece of foil over the flask. The theory is that it allows for better yeast growth by allowing more oxygen in without allowing bugs to fall in. I have never had a sanitation issue in my starter.

Eric

DING DING DING!!! You win the prize!

You don't need an airlock because you need the oxygen to get into the container. The SANITIZED aluminum foil over top will keep insects out and other floating particles that can cause infection. The yeast will be throwing off CO2 from fermentation and thus an infection isn't something to worry about. How do you think many breweries still do open fermentation vessels?

 

[Hammy71]

Palmer in "How to Brew":

"Shake the starter vigorously to aerate it. Remove and discard the plastic wrap, insert an airlock and put it somewhere out of direct sunlight. (So it doesn't get too hot in the sun.) If you don't have an airlock that will fit, don't worry. Instead, put a clean piece of plastic wrap over the jar or bottle and secure it loosely with a rubber band. This way the escaping carbon dioxide will be able to vent without exposing the starter to the air."

Have to agree with the rest of the above posters. I stopped using an airlock years ago. Sanitized piece of foil works fine. The above quote is outdated in my opinion. Many things have changed over the years (secondaries, sanitizing methods, just to name a few....). I've noticed since I stopped using the airlocks that layer of yeast seems larger. Course.....It isn't like I'm measuring it or anything....

 

[HalfPint]

Have to agree with the rest of the above posters. I stopped using an airlock years ago. Sanitized piece of foil works fine. The above quote is outdated in my opinion. Many things have changed over the years (secondaries, sanitizing methods, just to name a few....). I've noticed since I stopped using the airlocks that layer of yeast seems larger. Course.....It isn't like I'm measuring it or anything....

I agree. I've also had better results since I've stopped using an airlock. It would kill me to hear the poor guy who uses an airlock with a stir-plate.

 

[Beer_Guy]

[soapbox]

Common guys, a little common sense. You sound like a bunch of noobs on your first forum.

You have yeast putting out Co2. Thus you have positive pressure in the starter container. Ok, there may be a slight difference in pressure between an airlock and foil. The slight added back pressure from a tiny airlock is not enough to restrict the yeast growth much at all, if any.

Plus, I don’t see how oxygen is getting in there with foil covering the opening. (Unless of course there is a major temp swing or a storm front comes through.)

I think those that have had better luck may have just learned to produce a better starter wort, oxygenate better, temp control or something.

Guys, on your next starter, do two, one with foil and one with an airlock and show me pics. Otherwise there are too many variables involved.

Ridiculing the poster is no way to educate.

[/soapbox]

As for the original post’s question, I just did a brew with American Ale Blend from White Labs. Man, that yeast cake looked nasty. It was curdled real bad. I say use it.

 

[jgourd]

Most of us who use sanitized foil on top use a stir plate. That draws in O2. If I did not use a stir plate, I might consider using an airlock too. Or maybe not.

 

[maztec]

More information on using a Stir Plate with a starter:

http://brewiki.org/StirPlate

 

[Revvy]

I agree. I've also had better results since I've stopped using an airlock. It would kill me to hear the poor guy who uses an airlock with a stir-plate.

Me too, they take off quicker, and I actually have noticed and increase in actually pitching at high krausen. I just had a starter go to high krausen in less than 8 hours.

[soapbox]

Common guys, a little common sense. You sound like a bunch of noobs on your first forum.

You have yeast putting out Co2. Thus you have positive pressure in the starter container. Ok, there may be a slight difference in pressure between an airlock and foil. The slight added back pressure from a tiny airlock is not enough to restrict the yeast growth much at all, if any.

Plus, I don’t see how oxygen is getting in there with foil covering the opening. (Unless of course there is a major temp swing or a storm front comes through.)

I think those that have had better luck may have just learned to produce a better starter wort, oxygenate better, temp control or something.

Guys, on your next starter, do two, one with foil and one with an airlock and show me pics. Otherwise there are too many variables involved.

Ridiculing the poster is no way to educate.

[/soapbox]

Here's some common sense for you

The purpose of an airlock is to to act as a VALVE to release excess gas from whatever you using it on. Almost immedietly when yeast begins produce co2 the first thing to go is any OXYGEN not immedietly consumed by the yeast. An airlock is is meant to RELEASE stuff from inside the fermenter while preventing Oxygen from getting in.

By crimping a sanitized piece of foil on top of your starter, you are PREVENTING the oxygen from getting VOIDED OUT as it would in an airlock. So if the oxygen is going to be trapped in the vessel, and guess what? If the oxygen isn't getting kicked out of there it is going to be more readily utilized by the yeast.

Is that too difficutlt to grasp? It makes perfect sense to me.

And I didn't see ANYONE ridicule the op.

 

[Beer_Guy]

Most of us who use sanitized foil on top use a stir plate. That draws in O2. …

Agreed, to a point.

The wort on a stir plate draws air molecules down into the wort via the vortex.
This air absorption into the wort does not cause a negative pressure inside the vessel to draw in more fresh air. The wort simply becomes slightly larger containing more air molecules.

Something to consider:
When you first pour in the starter wort, the vessel contains air with some O2.
What O2 that is not pulled down into the wort is pushed out the foil gap and replaced with Co2 as the yeast pig out.
The way you are doing it now is just putting some of that expelled Co2 back into the wort.
Why not use a two-hole stopper and on one side an airlock letting the Co2 out and the other with a very slow pure O2 feed? The extra O2 might produce an outstanding crop of yeasties.

Anyone got the setup to try it?

 

[davesrose]

Boy, only on HBT do we have to theorize the difference between an airlock vs foil. I personally use foil with a starter, but the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure if there's a huge difference between the two. I like foil because it's so easy and it lets me aerate the starter easily. With my ferments, I also use a blow off tube with unsanitized water....some HBT seem to swear by votka or sanitized water for their gas barrier. IMO, there's no harm by a suck back with a blow off tube, and an o2 barrier exists with any barrier you create. Heck, some beers are even created completely exposed to open air too. Beer is pretty forgiving when you think about it.

 

[Beer_Guy]

I agree. I've also had better results since I've stopped using an airlock. It would kill me to hear the poor guy who uses an airlock with a stir-plate.

I guess this one post set me off. Sorry!

The OP kept asking why and the answers just did not make sense to me.

Spinning wort inside a vessel will not suck fresh air into the vessel unless it is wide open. It will suck the air on top of the wort down into the wort. Once foil it placed on top the air inside is trapped and Co2 buildup will push any unabsorbed O2 out with it.

There should be NO difference between the use of an airlock and foil. Both seal in any turbulence which might increase the O2 in the vessel which would be used to help increase yeast yield.

Perhaps a quick blast of O2 before putting the foil on would be helpful. Just a thought.

 

[ClaudiusB]

the yeast looks to be settling into little balls in the boottom of the flask. When i swirl the flask i get a lot of movement through my air lock. This is an idication to me that the yeast is ok,

Here is a picture how my starter looks like, depending on yeast strain.
You can see the yeast in suspension.

I aerate 24/7 until I get my required yeast slurry than stop the aeration and let it ferment out.
Step up process I use

Yeast after 1 week, started with 100ml.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Ridiculing the poster is no way to educate.

Seems more like we're the ones being ridiculed

[soapbox]

Common guys, a little common sense. You sound like a bunch of noobs on your first forum.

Why in the hell would i not use an air lock

Passive-aggressiveness aside But here's some advice: when Revvy seems to be quite sure about something, 99% of the time you should at least take it into consideration. The airlock, as he says, is a one-way valve meaning there would be absolutely no way for air to get back in. If there are several entry points for airflow (as with foil) then plenty can get in or (more importantly) stay in, especially at the beginning before full fermentation has actually occurred and the CO2 is purging the O2.

Yeast start out with aerobic respiration (as the name implies, oxygen is vital) during which ATP is created and stored and once the oxygen is used up it begins anaerobic respiration which is when reproduction and fermentation are occurring and the yeast are throwing off CO2.

If you allow for more O2 to get into/remain in the growler/bottle/flask you use to hold your starter, the yeast will perform better during aerobic respiration. This will allow the yeast to store more ATP needed for fermentation and reproduction during anaerobic respiration.

In essence, the foil allows more oxygen to get into solution when it's needed.

 

[maztec]

Correct me if I am wrong, but CO2 is heavier than O2. Thus, unless you have something causing the air to circulate the CO2 released by the yeast will push the O2 up and out the top. All an airlock does is keep things from (a) falling in and (b) if there is a bit of turbulence it keeps things from ... slipping in. So, unless you have something that is going to disturb the air at the top, and exchange the air inside the neck of the bottle, you are still going to get a bed of CO2 on top of your starter. Thus, no more oxygen than what you put into the system.

Thus, I have to side with the chap (Beer_Guy) that said that you would want to inject O2 at a slow or periodic rate while running the starter.

Except, aren't there problems with too much oxygen getting to the yeast?

Isn't the purpose of a stir plate to keep the yeast in suspension? Rather than letting it settle to the bottom, thus increasing its exposed surface area within the fluid and its ability to attain nutrients and reproduce?

 

[Frodo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but CO2 is heavier than O2. Thus, unless you have something causing the air to circulate the CO2 released by the yeast will push the O2 up and out the top. All an airlock does is keep things from (a) falling in and (b) if there is a bit of turbulence it keeps things from ... slipping in. So, unless you have something that is going to disturb the air at the top, and exchange the air inside the neck of the bottle, you are still going to get a bed of CO2 on top of your starter. Thus, no more oxygen than what you put into the system.

Thus, I have to side with the chap (Beer_Guy) that said that you would want to inject O2 at a slow or periodic rate while running the starter.

Except, aren't there problems with too much oxygen getting to the yeast?

Isn't the purpose of a stir plate to keep the yeast in suspension? Rather than letting it settle to the bottom, thus increasing its exposed surface area within the fluid and its ability to attain nutrients and reproduce?

My understanding is that immediately after yeast is pitched, they undergo a period where they build up their cell walls and reproduce, and this happens PRIOR to any CO2 production, and prior to any of the sugars being used up. It is during this period of time that oxygen is used by the yeast, along with FAN and nutrients. So no mass CO2 "blanket" is created during this time (though some is produced by some yeast which have begun fermentation), and oxygen is used by most of the yeast. Having a permeable "barrier" (i.e. foil instead of airlock) would allow oxygen to enter into the starter container simply by diffusion (diffusion would keep the density of oxygen similar to that outside the container). The amount of oxygen which could enter the starter container would begin to taper off as more and more yeast switch to the primary fermentation phase, and more CO2 begins to sit on the wort.

It is also my understanding that when creating a starter it is important to try to keep as much oxygen available to the yeast so they get the healthiest they can. That's why you aerate often, to get more of the oxygen that exists in the container's airspace into the solution, or to basically just help along the diffusion process by breaking up the CO2 blanket and allowing more O2 diffusion into the wort solution. THAT'S probably where the benefit of a stir plate comes into play - by keeping the air mixed up.

If it wasn't clear above, the first phase where oxygen uptake is important overlaps with the onset of primary fermentation... so it isn't like the yeast hit a trigger point where all of them begin fermentation at one time.

In essence, I don't think any of you are wrong about this whole affair. As with most things there's a gray area - foil probably helps better with allowing more O2 diffusion for a while, but eventually that benefit is negated by the CO2 blanket which begins to amass as more and more yeast switch to the primary fermentation phase.

That's my understanding anyway...

 

[HalfPint]

I guess this one post set me off. Sorry!

The OP kept asking why and the answers just did not make sense to me.

Spinning wort inside a vessel will not suck fresh air into the vessel unless it is wide open. It will suck the air on top of the wort down into the wort. Once foil it placed on top the air inside is trapped and Co2 buildup will push any unabsorbed O2 out with it.

There should be NO difference between the use of an airlock and foil. Both seal in any turbulence which might increase the O2 in the vessel which would be used to help increase yeast yield.

Perhaps a quick blast of O2 before putting the foil on would be helpful. Just a thought.

I imagine that you've taken a chemistry class or two, but I don't agree with you. The reason I say this is because when you have active fermentation inside of a vessel that's 3/4 of the way full with the fermenting liquid, all of the head space will be filled with a heavy blanket of Co2. Then, when that vessel is capped with an airlock that ensures no oxygen can get in, it completely defeats the point of a stir-plate which DOES draw oxygen into the liquid. With that said, using an airlock with a stir-plate completely defeats the point.

BLAHBLAHBLAH

 

[Brew-boy]

Foil baby its the only way too go. Hell I use foil on my primary for 2 days before I switch over to an airlock.

 

[Revvy]

Foil baby its the only way too go. Hell I use foil on my primary for 2 days before I switch over to an airlock.

I take it you ferment in a carboy then? It seems it would be a pita to try to cover a bucket, unless those really long boxes of reynolds heavy duty are wide enough.