Help Wanted - Cold Crash in a plastic fermentor! Gelatin? How Long?

[Nubiwan]

All my fermentors are plastic pails with an S-Airlock rubber bung type contraption on top.

So I carefully moved my D-rested lager from 62 degrees into a porch that will drop it down to 45 degrees, give or take. I have another fermentor giving off CO2 that I could collect in a balloon and use on my cold crashing fermentor. Is it worth it? Is a single inflated balloon adequate? How long before some suck back starts to happen in that cold crashing bucket.

I also wanted to add gelatin. It means removing the airlock, and air (O2) getting in. Is gelatin worth it? Is removing the airlock temporarily negating all my effort with the balloon?

Further, considering I will use a bottling bucket to bottle, and the entire wort will be O2 exposed at that time, should I even bother with the balloon at all? Is it more about minimizing any O2 exposure time helps a bit?

Is cold crashing at around 45 degrees adequate to clear my beer, and for how long should I leave it. Not interested in lagering. It can lager in bottles. Its going to be drunk in 2-3 months. Really just hoping to clear a little.

 

[BrewZer]

There are parts of the process that will always introduce a little oxygen to your beer. Minimizing it is the only thing we can do.

Maybe buy a small CO2 tank and purge lines, purge headspace after you close up the fermenter again, flow CO2 as you draw samples... sure, you could do that. I don't know that it'd be worth it, though, considering the short shelf-life you expect for your beers.

Gelatin is one way to clarify, but I've had good luck with irish moss which is added during the boil, so there's no additional oxygen introduced to clear the beer.

Like Charlie says, if you siphon quietly, you minimize infusing oxygen into the beer, and just the surface will interact with the air in the bottling bucket. Splash, and the O2 splashes with you.

You can bottle with oxygen-barrier cap liners if you like -- that should help reduce O2 in the ullage. And in my experience, all beers clear as they carbonate. They'll look great in the bottle at room temperature. Chilled and poured, well, sometimes yes, and sometimes you just close your eyes and enjoy the flavor.

 

[peter_shoes_]

Cold crashing -- for most styles of beer -- is a wonderful step to help clarify your brew. That said, let's talk about your proposed method and some alternatives.

Your instinct to use the CO2 balloon to prevent suckback is right on, and will work in many cases. A single balloon is likely adequate if it is full. However, you may have some trouble transferring the balloon to the carboy. Additionally, 45 degrees is pretty high for cold crashing, even for an extended period of time.

Gelatin, at this point, is ill-advised in my opinion. I know a lot of homebrewers might disagree, but for my money if you haven't already introduced irish moss or whirlfloc to precipitate out sediment, I wouldn't bother. The potential for introducing O2 and other airborne contaminants is just too high, especially if you're going to be mixing something in.

Let us not forget the classic method, however, of simply racking your fermented wort off the sediment, cleaning out your carboy, and re-racking for a secondary fermentation. Not only will this do wonders in clearing up your brew, but it will also improve flavor in many cases, and provide a more stable bed for dry-hopping if you want to do that.

Hope this helps
--Peter

 

[doug293cz]

...

Let us not forget the classic method, however, of simply racking your fermented wort off the sediment, cleaning out your carboy, and re-racking for a secondary fermentation. Not only will this do wonders in clearing up your brew, but it will also improve flavor in many cases, and provide a more stable bed for dry-hopping if you want to do that.

...

Adding extra racking steps is the last thing you want to do if you are trying to minimize O2 exposure. Better off lagering in bottles.

Brew on

 

[Nubiwan]

As an addendum to above request, what if my temp slowly drops from 62 degrees down to 45 degrees? Does that negate the negative pressure? Room temp is slowly dropping (now 56, on the way to 45).

Is 45 degrees too warm to be concerned about anyway? (just saw the above post)

Its at 52 degrees right now. The airlock level has hardly moved. Expecting that to drop to 40-45 overnight and for a few days.

Think I'll just let it settle out. Might skip the gelatin. Unless I get some other positive advice.

 

[VikeMan]

As an addendum to above request, what if my temp slowly drops from 62 degrees down to 45 degrees? Does that negate the negative pressure?

Do you mean does the speed of the drop affect the ultimate change in pressure? It doesn't.

 

[Nubiwan]

Do you mean does the speed of the drop affect the ultimate change in pressure? It doesn't.

Yes, that is what I meant. Monitoring the airlock, and temp has dropped around 8 degrees in 6-8 hours, and the airlock hasn't moved. Doesn't even show a pressure variance back toward bucket. Perhaps still too warm (52 degrees) . Sounds likely.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, that is what I meant. Monitoring the airlock, and temp has dropped around 8 degrees in 6-8 hours, and the airlock hasn't moved. Doesn't even show a pressure variance back toward bucket. Perhaps still too warm (52 degrees) . Sounds likely.

Buckets are notoriously leaky. Even a small leak will allow the pressure to equalize for temp changes, even if slow.

Brew on

 

[OleBrewing]

Makes a person wonder how the hell they did it back in the days with open vats and wooden barrels. I never worried about introduction of oxygen of course I don't dump the bucket into the keg. High hopped beers might need more dedication to keep the "freshness" of hop flavor. But even then when dry hopping a person is adding oxygen to the beer. In my opinion don't worry about it. There is also co2 dissolved in uncarbed beer which helps.

 

[Nubiwan]

Buckets are notoriously leaky. Even a small leak will allow the pressure to equalize for temp changes, even if slow.

Brew on

Yes - but i am pretty confident that during fermentation, any and all co2 escaped up through the airlock, and not the lid seams. That the reverse would happen for O2 being sucked back in. Perhaps naivley so. That all my previous attempts at beer have been oxidation free. Certainly up to the time i consumed them at least (within 90 -120 days). Perhaps with such a consumption schedule i could indeed risk gelatin on this batch to see what kijd of results i get.

Having said that, i am off to check my cold room temp, and look at my airlock........ for the sake of experiment, i might keep this thread going and report on findings........

 

[Nubiwan]

Makes a person wonder how the hell they did it back in the days with open vats and wooden barrels. I never worried about introduction of oxygen of course I don't dump the bucket into the keg. High hopped beers might need more dedication to keep the "freshness" of hop flavor. But even then when dry hopping a person is adding oxygen to the beer. In my opinion don't worry about it. There is also co2 dissolved in uncarbed beer which helps.

It certainly does. Storing Lagers in caves no less. Where they really at 32 degrees, these caves? All of them? Where they just cooler damp places, like cellars? The only way to debunk many homebrew myths and legends is to go try it, and see if you make decent beer or paint thinner. Not saying the cold caves were mythical, but that some other processes we may think absolutely necessary, are not. Not if decent / very good beer is all youre after.

 

[VikeMan]

There is also co2 dissolved in uncarbed beer which helps.

Dissolved CO2 doesn't do anything to inhibit oxygen being dissolved. Each gas dissolves independently according to its own partial pressure.

 

[Nubiwan]

Makes a person wonder how the hell they did it back in the days with open vats and wooden barrels. I never worried about introduction of oxygen of course I don't dump the bucket into the keg. High hopped beers might need more dedication to keep the "freshness" of hop flavor. But even then when dry hopping a person is adding oxygen to the beer. In my opinion don't worry about it. There is also co2 dissolved in uncarbed beer which helps.

This "award winning German lager" had very little care placed on oxidation during lagering. Indeed, uncorked is how their process was defined, allowing co2 to escape the cask, through a hole. Guess what, air gets back in. So whats to believe?

https://prostbrewing.wordpress.com/...e103e92efeec534d21efcd36c7ab8b4c#comment-3600

 

[Nubiwan]

So pics of cooling ferment and airlock. Airlock has levelled out over 12 degree swing but not allowing air in. I think I might just drop to 40-45 degrees and add some gelatin. Lager as best possible in bottles.

 

[mattman91]

I believe I am in the minority here, but I never cold crash in the fermenter. I see no benefit to it.

 

[Nubiwan]

Fuel for the fire? While my process doesnt involve kegging, my transfer will not be as vigorous as decribed here, with little to no apparent difference in taste. Again, this beer will be consumed in 3-4 months tops.

Everyones favourite site:

https://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/p...normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Nubiwan]

I believe I am in the minority here, but I never cold crash in the fermenter. I see no benefit to it.

@mattman91 - What do yo do to achieve clarity? Do you care?

Its my goal here. I dont use whiirfloc or any other process. I never cold crash either. Just bottle and drink

 

[VikeMan]

So pics of cooling ferment and airlock. Airlock has levelled out over 12 degree swing but not allowing air in. I think I might just drop to 40-45 degrees and add some gelatin. Lager as best possible in bottles.

View attachment 722300View attachment 722303

Unless it's perfectly sealed (and it's not, it's an open airlock), air is being sucked in as it gets colder. It can't not. The fact that the airlock looks about the same doesn't change that. Just as CO2 during fermentation can escape through the airlock without causing it to overflow, O2 can go in the other direction without liquid suck back. With a gradual cooling, a level airlock is what I'd expect. But air is still moving through it, and/or through the lid.

 

[Nubiwan]

Unless it's perfectly sealed (and it's not, it's an open airlock), air is being sucked in as it gets colder. It can't not. The fact that the airlock looks about the same doesn't change that. Just as CO2 during fermentation can escape through the airlock without causing it to overflow, O2 can go in the other direction without liquid suck back. With a gradual cooling, a level airlock is what I'd expect. But air is still moving through it, and/or through the lid.

The level of the airlock “has” changed in direction back towards fermentor. Initially it was mostly filled to the right. Now it’s levelled. If I had a leaking lid, as you theorize, then surely I’d see no change in the airlock. Air would just ingress through my leak, not try push water through my airlock. From where I see it, I have negative pressure built inside fermentor, but not enough yet to suck through air lock.

 

[VikeMan]

Air would just ingress through my leak, not try push water through my airlock. From where I see it, I have negative pressure built inside fermentor, but not enough yet to suck through air lock.

The airlock is open. The liquid is permeable. The pressure change has allowed (more) air to move through it. Not as much as if the airlock were dry, but some air has moved through.

 

[Nubiwan]

The airlock is open. The liquid is permeable. The pressure change has allowed (more) air to move through it. Not as much as if the airlock were dry, but some air has moved through.

At what rate? I’d like to see the physics on that. Enough to make me care.

Again, I will open the airlock to pour the entire content into a bottling bucket in a few days, so my aim is oxidation reduction, some clarity benefits, not O2 prevention. Already stated my
entire process is open to air at times by limitations.

the more I read on the affect of oxidation over time beer is kept stored, the less it seems to apply to my consumption schedule any way.

 

[BrewZer]

Again, I will open the airlock to pour the entire content into a bottling bucket in a few days, so my aim is oxidation reduction, some clarity benefits, not O2 prevention.

By "pour," I hope you meant "siphon"... pouring WILL introduce a large amount of oxygen.

 

[mattman91]

@mattman91 - What do yo do to achieve clarity? Do you care?

Its my goal here. I dont use whiirfloc or any other process. I never cold crash either. Just bottle and drink

I keg all of my beers, so by the time they are ready to serve they are pretty clear - after 1-2 cloudy pours

I use a plastic Fermonster, and perhaps I'm being too paranoid, but I would rather not risk oxidation. I do use Irish Moss, and I purchased gelatin a while back but haven't brought myself to try it over the same oxidation paranoia.

Like I said, I know I am definitely in the minority!

 

[Nubiwan]

By "pour," I hope you meant "siphon"... pouring WILL introduce a large amount of oxygen.

Yes - siphon - sorry if I caused undue "horror"

Yet, the Brulosophy experiment above described their "on purpose oxidation" as follows.

" In order to maximize oxidation in the experimental batch, I cut a small length of vinyl tubing, attached one end to the spout on my Brew Bucket, dangled the other end in the unsealed keg, opened the valve, and let the beer splash into the keg. "

Hardly taking care, as I would siphoning to a bottle bucket.

 

[Immocles]

I keg all of my beers, so by the time they are ready to serve they are pretty clear - after 1-2 cloudy pours

I use a plastic Fermonster, and perhaps I'm being too paranoid, but I would rather not risk oxidation. I do use Irish Moss, and I purchased gelatin a while back but haven't brought myself to try it over the same oxidation paranoia.

Like I said, I know I am definitely in the minority!

I'm in a similar boat. I don't cold crash, mainly because I dont have the ability. But I'm not sure I would bother even if I did. Perhaps on heavy dry hopped beers? In the winter, I do a slow ramp down to room temp, which is about high 40s in the coldest months, and mid 50s at the current conditions. My beers sit in primary for 2.5-3 weeks, and are generally pretty clear when bottled. By the time they go into the fridge, I can see through the bottle quite easily. I do battle chill haze for a few weeks, but after that it goes back to great clarity. The only addition I use is Whirlfloc at 10-15m left in the boil.

 

[Nubiwan]

What’s done is done. My lager is out cold crashing for at least 24 hours now. I sealed the top of the airlock, so no air is getting in through that. At least not bubbling through. If air IS getting in, I suspect it to be minimal. Regardless, I am steaming forward with what some will now suspect to be a highly oxidated beer, for the sake of science, and those who would later ask the same question. That is, will my beer taste shitty if I do this?

I’m going to open the airlock and pour in some gelatin along with a little Ascorbic Acid to help ward off oxidation. I had positive results using AA in my last IPA. It’s tasteless. It’s used in wine and lots of other foods. Probably causes cancer FFS. Going to bottle in 24 hours is my aim. Opening the airlock will mean my head space is just air. That can’t be good. I’ll seal it up anyway.

I’ll post updates after I open a beer in few weeks. Here’s to science and beer. Wish me luck.....

 

[Nubiwan]

Temp is down to 38. If air is getting in the bucket it’s not obvious. I don’t see any major compression on the bucket itself. Lid may have subsided a little-but hardly noticeable. If air is getting in, I’m willing to bet it’s minimal till I pop the airlock and add my concoction of finings and AA.

 

[VikeMan]

Temp is down to 38. If air is getting in the bucket it’s not obvious. I don’t see any major compression on the bucket itself.

Air getting in wouldn't compress the bucket. It would reduce/prevent compression.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

It certainly does. Storing Lagers in caves no less. Where they really at 32 degrees, these caves? All of them? Where they just cooler damp places, like cellars? The only way to debunk many homebrew myths and legends is to go try it, and see if you make decent beer or paint thinner. Not saying the cold caves were mythical, but that some other processes we may think absolutely necessary, are not. Not if decent / very good beer is all youre after.

The Germans stored large amounts of ice in the caves to help maintain the low temperature so I would say they actually were close to freezing.

 

[Nubiwan]

Air getting in wouldn't compress the bucket. It would reduce/prevent compression.

If it is not getting in, then I’d see my bucket collapse slightly too. Yes? Which it has done, if ever so slightly. I’m satisfied my container is as airtight sat it ever is during fermentation. I’m forging ahead.

 

[Nubiwan]

The Germans stored large amounts of ice in the caves to help maintain the low temperature so I would say they actually were close to freezing.

Will we ever know? I also posted above how Kellerbier was made with zero attention to oxidation. An open bung hole. An award winning beer apparently. It’s debatable that is what they “actually” did.

 

[VikeMan]

If it is not getting in, then I’d see my bucket collapse slightly too. Yes? Which it has done, if ever so slightly. I’m satisfied my container is as airtight sat it ever is during fermentation. I’m forging ahead.

I'm just going to make a few final comments and then withdraw from this thread.

Oxygen ingress is not binary, i.e. it's not "have it" or "don't have it." There's a huge range of possible amounts of ingress and thus oxidative impacts.

I don't have nearly enough information to compute how much O2 is entering during your cold crash. But I can say very confidently that it's more than during an equivalent amount of "stationary" time after active fermentation. How much it will affect your beer flavor stability also requires more information than we have. You might not notice anything special. Or you might. And others might taste it differently, depending on their own flavor thresholds for various oxidized compounds.

My main message here would be that looking at oxygen/oxidation as more or less binary is not an accurate view. If you're curious to learn more about how gases behave, the wikipedia pages are actually pretty good for a start. I'd recommend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lawshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick's_laws_of_diffusionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law
A basic understanding of the above is enough to work logically through most scenarios encountered in brewing. And if not, there's always @Vale71 and @doug293cz.

 

[Nubiwan]

I'm just going to make a few final comments and then withdraw from this thread.

Oxygen ingress is not binary, i.e. it's not "have it" or "don't have it." There's a huge range of possible amounts of ingress and thus oxidative impacts.

I don't have nearly enough information to compute how much O2 is entering during your cold crash. But I can say very confidently that it's more than during an equivalent amount of "stationary" time after active fermentation. How much it will affect your beer flavor stability also requires more information than we have. You might not notice anything special. Or you might. And others might taste it differently, depending on their own flavor thresholds for various oxidized compounds.

My main message here would be that looking at oxygen/oxidation as more or less binary is not an accurate view. If you're curious to learn more about how gases behave, the wikipedia pages are actually pretty good for a start. I'd recommend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lawshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick's_laws_of_diffusionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law
A basic understanding of the above is enough to work logically through most scenarios encountered in brewing. And if not, there's always @Vale71 and @doug293cz.

I appreciate your response and will look at the links you posted. Until I do, I’m not convinced I have a lot of air getting back in my bucket. Certainly not permeating through liquid or plastic, at an appreciable rate.

In any event, as stated, I use a bottling bucket, at which point my entire wort will be exposed to air. I’ve not had issues with oxidized beer, nor have I entered beer contests, but my beer has been more than satisfactory. So my plan is to see how this works out for those poster who can’t - don’t want to - invest in costly brewing equipment.

By posting my findings, I hope to be doing a positive service to the forum. Not just saying you can’t do it that way......

 

[Bill Tong]

I have plastic bucket fermenters with S airlocks. I have cold crashed in them with gelatine finings plenty of times. I cool down to 7C then open the lid and add gelatine then drop to 0C for 48 - 72 hours then bottle. Yes, oxygen does get sucked back, but i have never had noticeable oxidation even on 3+ month old IPAs.

I see people often on this forum ask why one would do this. Simple. I bottle. I dont have fridge space to lager bottles for months. My beer is virtually clear in the bottle after an overnight chill. Very close to crystal clear after 3-4 days in the fridge.

 

[Nubiwan]

I have plastic bucket fermenters with S airlocks. I have cold crashed in them with gelatine finings plenty of times. I cool down to 7C then open the lid and add gelatine then drop to 0C for 48 - 72 hours then bottle. Yes, oxygen does get sucked back, but i have never had noticeable oxidation even on 3+ month old IPAs.

I see people often on this forum ask why one would do this. Simple. I bottle. I dont have fridge space to lager bottles for months. My beer is virtually clear in the bottle after an overnight chill. Very close to crystal clear after 3-4 days in the fridge.

And that is basically what I have done. Been bottled almost a week. Tempted to go pop one to see if its carbonated yet, but will perhaps leave till weekend. I DO have a bit of room in spare fridge to put 12-24 bottles.

 

[Birrofilo]

I don't have the possibility to cold crash but I am playing with final product clarifying substances and, after some research, it appears that silica sol (E551) works well in the fermenter and it works better at ambient temperature than at cold temperatures.

I tried it once with a beer which is currently in the bottles, during bottling, from what I could judge from the transparent hose, it was much clearer than my usual production.

Also, I read that Chitosan is formidable when coupled with Silica sol. I never tried that, though. The couple is available also with some commercial names, but it's basically E551 to be put in the beer first, and after one hour you put Chitosan. That also requires ambient temperatures for best efficacy.

All this is leading me to the conclusion that, if clarification is the only reason why beer should be cold crashed, then I don't need cold crash because I can clarify at ambient temperature with the right clarifying agents.

If I had the possibility to do some cold crash without any fear of oxygen intake then I would do it I think, but in my circumstances I feel I am not really losing much by having recourse to clarifying agents.

 

[Nubiwan]

Silica!!!! Safe? Wasn't "Alien" Silicon based, and that thing bled acid? Must research it.

Cold crashing isn't for me either. Did not like the fact I cant stop O2 getting in my Bucket.

 

[Birrofilo]

It's an additive with the European code E551. It has many names: silica gel, colloidal silica, silica sol, Kieselsol in German, silica dioxide etc (I am translating from Italian so don't get the names literally).

It's always E551 and, if it's E551, it's that. Having an European food additive code, it's deemed a safe food additive within the usage limits which are indicated in the norm and in the instruction sheet. Its use must not exceed 2% of the product. We use infinitely less than that.

E551 is also used in granular food and in medicines.

Some people look at it with suspicion, and some people would like it to be forbidden, but there is no evidence whatsoever of toxicity at the moment.

 

[InspectorJon]

A couple of chemical names have been thrown around here so in case anyone is interested, Silica or Silicon Dioxide is quartz. A common element in a lot of beach sand and non-toxic. I imagine one could get sick if they ate enough sand or rocks. Ascorbic Acid is vitamin C and is used as a common anti oxidant. The book I learned from back in the early 1980s recommended adding a small amount of ascorbic acid to beer post fermentation to reduce oxidation, so its not a new idea.

 

[doug293cz]

A couple of chemical names have been thrown around here so in case anyone is interested, Silica or Silicon Dioxide is quartz. A common element in a lot of beach sand and non-toxic. I imagine one could get sick if they ate enough sand or rocks. Ascorbic Acid is vitamin C and is used as a common anti oxidant. The book I learned from back in the early 1980s recommended adding a small amount of ascorbic acid to beer post fermentation to reduce oxidation, so its not a new idea.

Silica (silicon dioxide) is not toxic when ingested. Very fine silica dust can be toxic via inhalation. Silicosis

Brew on