Help Wanted - Cold Crash in a plastic fermentor! Gelatin? How Long?

[Nubiwan]

The Germans stored large amounts of ice in the caves to help maintain the low temperature so I would say they actually were close to freezing.

Will we ever know? I also posted above how Kellerbier was made with zero attention to oxidation. An open bung hole. An award winning beer apparently. It’s debatable that is what they “actually” did.

 

[VikeMan]

If it is not getting in, then I’d see my bucket collapse slightly too. Yes? Which it has done, if ever so slightly. I’m satisfied my container is as airtight sat it ever is during fermentation. I’m forging ahead.

I'm just going to make a few final comments and then withdraw from this thread.

Oxygen ingress is not binary, i.e. it's not "have it" or "don't have it." There's a huge range of possible amounts of ingress and thus oxidative impacts.

I don't have nearly enough information to compute how much O2 is entering during your cold crash. But I can say very confidently that it's more than during an equivalent amount of "stationary" time after active fermentation. How much it will affect your beer flavor stability also requires more information than we have. You might not notice anything special. Or you might. And others might taste it differently, depending on their own flavor thresholds for various oxidized compounds.

My main message here would be that looking at oxygen/oxidation as more or less binary is not an accurate view. If you're curious to learn more about how gases behave, the wikipedia pages are actually pretty good for a start. I'd recommend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lawshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick's_laws_of_diffusionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law
A basic understanding of the above is enough to work logically through most scenarios encountered in brewing. And if not, there's always @Vale71 and @doug293cz.

 

[Nubiwan]

I'm just going to make a few final comments and then withdraw from this thread.

Oxygen ingress is not binary, i.e. it's not "have it" or "don't have it." There's a huge range of possible amounts of ingress and thus oxidative impacts.

I don't have nearly enough information to compute how much O2 is entering during your cold crash. But I can say very confidently that it's more than during an equivalent amount of "stationary" time after active fermentation. How much it will affect your beer flavor stability also requires more information than we have. You might not notice anything special. Or you might. And others might taste it differently, depending on their own flavor thresholds for various oxidized compounds.

My main message here would be that looking at oxygen/oxidation as more or less binary is not an accurate view. If you're curious to learn more about how gases behave, the wikipedia pages are actually pretty good for a start. I'd recommend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lawshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick's_laws_of_diffusionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law
A basic understanding of the above is enough to work logically through most scenarios encountered in brewing. And if not, there's always @Vale71 and @doug293cz.

I appreciate your response and will look at the links you posted. Until I do, I’m not convinced I have a lot of air getting back in my bucket. Certainly not permeating through liquid or plastic, at an appreciable rate.

In any event, as stated, I use a bottling bucket, at which point my entire wort will be exposed to air. I’ve not had issues with oxidized beer, nor have I entered beer contests, but my beer has been more than satisfactory. So my plan is to see how this works out for those poster who can’t - don’t want to - invest in costly brewing equipment.

By posting my findings, I hope to be doing a positive service to the forum. Not just saying you can’t do it that way......

 

[Bill Tong]

I have plastic bucket fermenters with S airlocks. I have cold crashed in them with gelatine finings plenty of times. I cool down to 7C then open the lid and add gelatine then drop to 0C for 48 - 72 hours then bottle. Yes, oxygen does get sucked back, but i have never had noticeable oxidation even on 3+ month old IPAs.

I see people often on this forum ask why one would do this. Simple. I bottle. I dont have fridge space to lager bottles for months. My beer is virtually clear in the bottle after an overnight chill. Very close to crystal clear after 3-4 days in the fridge.

 

[Nubiwan]

I have plastic bucket fermenters with S airlocks. I have cold crashed in them with gelatine finings plenty of times. I cool down to 7C then open the lid and add gelatine then drop to 0C for 48 - 72 hours then bottle. Yes, oxygen does get sucked back, but i have never had noticeable oxidation even on 3+ month old IPAs.

I see people often on this forum ask why one would do this. Simple. I bottle. I dont have fridge space to lager bottles for months. My beer is virtually clear in the bottle after an overnight chill. Very close to crystal clear after 3-4 days in the fridge.

And that is basically what I have done. Been bottled almost a week. Tempted to go pop one to see if its carbonated yet, but will perhaps leave till weekend. I DO have a bit of room in spare fridge to put 12-24 bottles.

 

[Birrofilo]

I don't have the possibility to cold crash but I am playing with final product clarifying substances and, after some research, it appears that silica sol (E551) works well in the fermenter and it works better at ambient temperature than at cold temperatures.

I tried it once with a beer which is currently in the bottles, during bottling, from what I could judge from the transparent hose, it was much clearer than my usual production.

Also, I read that Chitosan is formidable when coupled with Silica sol. I never tried that, though. The couple is available also with some commercial names, but it's basically E551 to be put in the beer first, and after one hour you put Chitosan. That also requires ambient temperatures for best efficacy.

All this is leading me to the conclusion that, if clarification is the only reason why beer should be cold crashed, then I don't need cold crash because I can clarify at ambient temperature with the right clarifying agents.

If I had the possibility to do some cold crash without any fear of oxygen intake then I would do it I think, but in my circumstances I feel I am not really losing much by having recourse to clarifying agents.

 

[Nubiwan]

Silica!!!! Safe? Wasn't "Alien" Silicon based, and that thing bled acid? Must research it.

Cold crashing isn't for me either. Did not like the fact I cant stop O2 getting in my Bucket.

 

[Birrofilo]

It's an additive with the European code E551. It has many names: silica gel, colloidal silica, silica sol, Kieselsol in German, silica dioxide etc (I am translating from Italian so don't get the names literally).

It's always E551 and, if it's E551, it's that. Having an European food additive code, it's deemed a safe food additive within the usage limits which are indicated in the norm and in the instruction sheet. Its use must not exceed 2% of the product. We use infinitely less than that.

E551 is also used in granular food and in medicines.

Some people look at it with suspicion, and some people would like it to be forbidden, but there is no evidence whatsoever of toxicity at the moment.

 

[InspectorJon]

A couple of chemical names have been thrown around here so in case anyone is interested, Silica or Silicon Dioxide is quartz. A common element in a lot of beach sand and non-toxic. I imagine one could get sick if they ate enough sand or rocks. Ascorbic Acid is vitamin C and is used as a common anti oxidant. The book I learned from back in the early 1980s recommended adding a small amount of ascorbic acid to beer post fermentation to reduce oxidation, so its not a new idea.

 

[doug293cz]

A couple of chemical names have been thrown around here so in case anyone is interested, Silica or Silicon Dioxide is quartz. A common element in a lot of beach sand and non-toxic. I imagine one could get sick if they ate enough sand or rocks. Ascorbic Acid is vitamin C and is used as a common anti oxidant. The book I learned from back in the early 1980s recommended adding a small amount of ascorbic acid to beer post fermentation to reduce oxidation, so its not a new idea.

Silica (silicon dioxide) is not toxic when ingested. Very fine silica dust can be toxic via inhalation. Silicosis

Brew on