Help on Going Electric

[nicklawmusic]

I am looking to upgrade my set up, but I have certain limitations. I live in a terraced house in the UK, so room is quite limited. Also, the weather is also, well, British, so I need to brew indoors.

At the moment, I am doing BIAB over two gas rings on my cooker in a 32L pot, which comfortably gives me around 6 gallons of wort.

I am looking to double that in order to produce around 12-14 gallons per patch.

There is no way I could boil that amount of wort with my current set up in doors and I haven't got enough space/ventilation to create a three tier system in my cellar.

Therefore, I've been considering purchasing a 70L pot with one or two heating elements inside, having a false bottom on stilts and doing BIAB (to protect the bag from scorching).

I was wondering, especially if you're from the UK, if anyone has such a set up and what I need to consider if I am going to take this approach?

Also, is it necessary that I take this approach? Is there a way to do all grain (mash tun, etc) without having a permanent set up? Obviously, it's really heavy lifting pots full of wort!

Any help and advice would be appreciated, especially in the electric kettle set up. I don't want to burn my house down or kill myself in the process. (How safe is it?!)

 

[doug293cz]

Electric can be done safely if you follow proper design and build standards. Check out these two HBT threads and Kal's site before starting to design or build anything.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electrical-primer-brewers-145019/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/list-pj-electrical-diagrams-382286/
http://theelectricbrewery.com/
​

What you need for your system will depend a lot on whether you want automatic mash temperature control or not. If you give us some more info on how you think you want your brewery to operate, we can give you more detailed suggestions on how to proceed.

Brew on

 

[dyqik]

The UK specific things that I can think of that will be different to what's on the electricbrewery and most of here are:

Everything will be 240V single phase, rather than the mix of 120V single phase and 230V dual phase. US 120V circuit diagrams will probably be closer to what you need than the 230V dual phase diagrams.

You can go up to ~3kW 13A on a single phase circuit, so you'll probably need to use two circuits. There isn't really an option for higher currents on a circuit unless you have a spare electric cooker circuit available.

You'll need to work out the wiring gauges for UK specs.

Wiring new circuits in you house would come under section P, or whatever it's called now and needs to be inspected or done by a professional electrician.

Items will generally have protection fuses in their plugs, but you'll still need RCD protection (GFCI over here).

Home Depot = a much better B&Q, except in colour, which is the same

You might know this already, but I'll put it here in case it's helpful to anyone else offering advice.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Thanks for that. How would I know whether my wiring was in a different phase or not?

 

[nicklawmusic]

Also, I presume if I used one 2.4kW heating element in my kettle, I'd be fine going into a standard plug? How long would it take to bring 70L to a rolling boil?

 

[lschiavo]

Everything will be 240V single phase

Really? Is one leg grounded then?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Really? Is one leg grounded then?

Earthed...but yes. Hot, Neutral and equipment ground.. bout 70% of the world works this way for various reasons. US, Japan, Canada and Central America are the only exceptions I remember.

 

[lschiavo]

Earthed...but yes. Hot, Neutral and equipment ground.. bout 70% of the world works this way for various reasons. US, Japan, Canada and Central America are the only exceptions I remember.

I never knew that. I knew 240V was standard in most places around the world but I assumed it was a center tap system. Transmission must be 3 phase. So transformers are set up as corner grounded delta's? We had to install one at a water pump once and the power company acted like we were crazy.

Sorry to derail OP.

 

[dyqik]

Thanks for that. How would I know whether my wiring was in a different phase or not?

It won't be. It'll be a single phase to your entire house. What matters is that you have separate circuits to plug different elements into. You can find those by switching breakers off and seeing which sockets go out when you do that.

 

[nicklawmusic]

So, presuming I have a wall socket next to my cooker, as one across the room, and I plugged the elements into these two different sockets, if it was on the same circuit breaker, I wouldn't be able to use two elements?

What about one element? The guy at the store said I could get to a rolling boil at 90 minutes with a single element. I could just plug it into one socket and use it then, right?!

 

[nicklawmusic]

Just had a look. My cooker sockets and my ground floor sockets are ok other breakers, so I presume that means they're on different circuits?

The only snag is that the closest ground floor socket is a few meters away. Would it matter if I used an extension lead to plug on of the elements in?

Also, what's the deal with using other household objects (like a lamp/laptop/etc) that require power at the same time?

 

[Zepth]

In order to know whether or not a regular socket will work for your kettle we need to know the specs on it. In Canada most of our circuits are rated for 15 amps. @ 120v = 1800w max. In the kitchen on newer homes are rated at 20. @ 120v = 2400w. I have no idea what amperage you've got across the pond.

As far as other things on the same circuit will depend on how much you're drawing. If you're good for 20A (Make sure!) @ 240 = 4800. If you're using a 3000w element you have plenty of power left over to run your lights or fans. Extension cords are fine as long as they're not the "granny cords" and have the capability to transfer the amount of power required.

For reference: I have made a 42L batch in a 56L pot. Max output of my element is 4100W to reach a boil, usually run 65% (~2650W) to maintain a boil. Yes, things got a little dicey with the break material, but the nice gentle start to an electric boil it all worked out fine.

+1 for www.theelectricbrewery.com
Absolutely fantastic information on everything you could imagine. There is also a section based on converting the 120/240 panel to use 240v only. Without looking at it in too much detail I believe it was a few switches, relays, lights, and comparatively basic wiring that needed to be changed.

 

[augiedoggy]

something that should be mentioned is if your using a pid or pwm controller is doesn't vary the voltage amount to the element ... its just turns that voltage on and off at varying rates... so for example a 4500 element at 65% power output with a pwm controller such as a pid in manual mode its using the full 17-18 amps at 240v for 65% of every second and nothing the other 35% of that second its off... This is different than if you are using a simple potentiometer knob and an ssvr which will just adjust the amps draw down to say an even 10-11 amps the whole time its at 65% power... (the other problem with ssvr knob control is its not very linear) so it doesn't usually work as precisely as people would hope... (50% might be 50% but 25 % on the knob might really be 40% output)

 

[jeffmeh]

something that should be mentioned is if your using a pid or pwm controller is doesn't vary the voltage amount to the element ... its just turns that voltage on and off at varying rates... so for example a 4500 element at 65% power output with a pwm controller such as a pid in manual mode its using the full 17-18 amps at 240v for 65% of every second and nothing the other 35% of that second its off... This is different than if you are using a simple potentiometer knob and an ssvr which will just adjust the amps draw down to say an even 10-11 amps the whole time its at 65% power... (the other problem with ssvr knob control is its not very linear) so it doesn't usually work as precisely as people would hope... (50% might be 50% but 25 % on the knob might really be 40% output)

With the potentiometer with SSVR method a volt/amp meter would provide real utility, i.e., ignore the position of the dial and turn it based upon the amperage displayed.

 

[augiedoggy]

With the potentiometer with SSVR method a volt/amp meter would provide real utility, i.e., ignore the position of the dial and turn it based upon the amperage displayed.

yes this is what I have done in my latest build.

 

[nicklawmusic]

I'm starting to get a bit lost with the talk of controllers and stuff! Is there not a simple option of just plugging the kettle in and let it get hot?!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

So an electric brew kettle is far more complicated than just sticking a pot on the cooker or camping stove?!

It is more complex...how much more complex is where there tend to be multiple camps.

It can be as simple as buying a pre-built kettle with a built-in controller that will not overload you largest convenient breaker and make sure it is the only running on that breaker when you use it. How much that can boil dictates your maximum batch size.

It can be as complex as...well, as complex as someone's imagination allows it.

 

[dyqik]

Just had a look. My cooker sockets and my ground floor sockets are ok other breakers, so I presume that means they're on different circuits?

The only snag is that the closest ground floor socket is a few meters away. Would it matter if I used an extension lead to plug on of the elements in?

Also, what's the deal with using other household objects (like a lamp/laptop/etc) that require power at the same time?

Yes, that means they are separate circuits and can both supply significant power at the same time.

A lamp or a laptop shouldn't be problem on either circuit, as they only draw about 100W maximum. More powerful items may blow the breaker, but that's all. If you have ring mains (which I don't think works with circuit breakers, and hasn't been standard for a while, so it's pretty unlikely), then you can actually draw 26A from a circuit, as there are two 13A feeds to each circuit (for US people, this is just different to US norms, if you're interested read the wikipedia article on UK electrical wiring).

2400W is too little power to get to a good rolling boil in reasonable time on a 12 UK gallon/55L batch, but should be enough to sustain it, depending on the shape of your kettle and whether you can insulate the sides. 3000W should be enough to maintain a good boil, but would still be painfully slow to get to boiling point and to heat strike water. http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html suggests about an hour from mash run-off temperatures to boiling, but in my experience it'll actually be a bit slower than that because your losses increase as you approach boiling point. That also gives ~90 minutes from 15C to mash-in temperatures. 5000W would reduce those times to ~40 minutes and ~50 minutes.

If you look on eBay you can get various heating element sizes - e.g. burco boiler ones in the 2 kW to 3 kW range. Mixing and matching two different powers gives you a couple of power output options. Since you can run up to ~3000W on one circuit, you could avoid building a controller to start with by installing a 3000W and a 2000-2400W element on separate circuits. Then you can get up to a boil fairly rapidly, and you have three different power levels available to maintain that boil, by switching either element off. Even if you have two elements the same size, you still have the ability to dial the power back to something that will probably be workable by just switching one element off. That's probably all the control you need to start with - proper continuous power control could wait for later until you see if it's necessary. ETA: Something like the Stilldragon kit would be perfect for that if it is required.

You can run one element on a standard 13A extension lead - don't get one that's longer than necessary though, check the current/power rating on it before you buy, and it's probably best to put the weaker element on it anyway to reduce heating and to give more space on the ground floor circuit for other appliances.

By the way, you can pretty much buy what you are looking for off the shelf - http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Stainless-Steel-75-Ltr-Electric-Boiler-1.html

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm starting to get a bit lost with the talk of controllers and stuff! Is there not a simple option of just plugging the kettle in and let it get hot?!

I'm a newbie at electric but there IS that option; it just comes with a caveat: Your setup has to be sized just right - the circuit, the element, the kettle insulation, and the boil volume.

Think of it this way: Let's say you want to cook a beef stew on your stove top. Normally you'd have a rotary control that adjusts the burner heat, so you can bring up the heat quickly and then simmer it. But in this case you only have an on/off switch. You could get lucky, and when the heat comes on, it ramps up to max and simmers the stew perfectly. More likely, you'll need to flip the switch on and off to avoid scorching it or boiling it over.

A controller does that switch-flipping automatically for you.

In my case, I wanted to do what you are saying - no controller - just turn it on and leave it. I'm under-powered with a 1500W element on 120V/15A. My element boils 2.25 gallons of water perfectly at full tilt in an insulated kettle. I can't do more; I could do a bit less but that's already a small batch so I wouldn't want to. It works for what I wanted to accomplish and was inexpensive. Surely there's a 240V configuration that would perform similarly for you; you'll just have to experiment or try to find other UK brewers who have explored this territory already.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm starting to get a bit lost with the talk of controllers and stuff! Is there not a simple option of just plugging the kettle in and let it get hot?!

something like this is about a cheap as you can get while still being practical and have the advantages of electric without problems ...
http://stilldragon.com/index.php/diy-controller-kit.html

Even a propane turkey fryer has a flame control knob...