Help needed with BIAB stout recipe and water.

[camonick]

Hey everyone...
I'm at a loss with my quest to clone a Guinness Draught style of stout. I have made 2 batches in a row using different techniques and neither one has turned out even close let alone barely drinkable. I don't know if it's my water profile or the BIAB method for my grain bill or both. Here is my recipe, that from a lot of research, I believe to be close to correct. I have been using Bru'n Water and diluting my well water with RO water and salts and 88% lactic acid if necessary to make adjustments according to different water profiles.
5 Gallon Batch
Est. ABV 4.4%
Est. SRM 33.3
Est. IBUs 34.9
6 lbs. 2 oz Maris Otter
2 lbs. Flaked Barley
1 lb Black roasted barley (500L)
2 oz EKG (6.0%) 60 min.

Full volume BIAB no sparge
Total water needed for mash 7.61 gallons
Beginning boil volume 7.15 gallons
5.5 gallons into fermenter.
Mash 150 60 min
Boil 60 min.
Nottingham yeast fermented at 66

For my first attempt, I used a Wicklow Mountain profile and only mashed the MO and flaked barley for the first 45 minutes and added the roasted barley for the last 15 minutes.
Second batch was a Black Dry profile and all the grain was mashed together for the full 60 min. I'm not good at describing flavors, but both batches were what I would call very "thin" and somewhat bitter. My efficiencies are not even close to other batches with larger grain bills. ABVs in the mid to high 3% is all I can manage with this recipe. What I'm wondering, is my mash too thin with the smaller grain bill and I'm not getting good conversion? I'm at a total loss with 10 gallons of beer that is about to go down the drain.

Thanks for looking.

 

[bracconiere]

I'm at a loss with my quest to clone a Guinness Draught style of stout.

i thought they used nitrogen to carb with? have you tried beer gas?

 

[camonick]

i thought they used nitrogen to carb with? have you tried beer gas?

Yes. I’m using beer gas and a stout faucet to serve, but there is something incredibly wrong with the flavor and ABV, not my serving method. Guinness Draught is advertised as 4.2% but I can’t even get that.

 

[RM-MN]

How long has it been since you brewed each batch? My stouts are thin and harsh flavored right after they have been bottled. 3 months later they are more full bodied and better flavored. 3 months later they have reached full body and are much better flavored. They keep changing as time goes on but I've never been able to keep from drinking the last one after 2 years has passed.

 

[camonick]

The beer doesn’t taste good at all. I’m beyond the fact that it isn’t an accurate representation of Guinness... it just doesn’t taste good no matter what I want to call it. I’ve been trying to maintain the 70-20-10 grain ratio which is consistent with my research. Maybe I need more base malt and possibly a different kind. I’ve read that Maris Otter doesn’t have the diastatic power that regular 2-row has. There is a stout malt made by Malting Co. of Ireland that I’m also considering. Maybe the ratio of grains isn’t as important on a homebrew scale.

 

[camonick]

How long has it been since you brewed each batch? My stouts are thin and harsh flavored right after they have been bottled. 3 months later they are more full bodied and better flavored. 3 months later they have reached full body and are much better flavored. They keep changing as time goes on but I've never been able to keep from drinking the last one after 2 years has passed.

The first batch was brewed in early August and I just kegged the second. The first still isn’t much good and the sample when I transferred to the keg earlier today was terrible and I can’t imagine time will do it any good.

 

[GnenieGone]

The "thin" may be from the BIAB process. I've never got a nice low ABV mouth feel beer from that process. Admittingly, I don't do it very often. Do you have access to a mash tun to do all grain? Mash at 1.25gal/lbs grain then a batch sparge the rest is easiest. One would think adding all water with all grain is the same thing but it isn't. Enzymes don't work as efficient with a lot of water.

I put about 1/2 darks in the to keep the pH low then add the rest after 30min or so. So you have the right idea.

You could try doing the 2 step mash/sparge process with your existing setup.

 

[camonick]

The "thin" may be from the BIAB process. I've never got a nice low ABV mouth feel beer from that process. Admittingly, I don't do it very often. Do you have access to a mash tun to do all grain? Mash at 1.25gal/lbs grain then a batch sparge the rest is easiest. One would think adding all water with all grain is the same thing but it isn't. Enzymes don't work as efficient with a lot of water.

I put about 1/2 darks in the to keep the pH low then add the rest after 30min or so. So you have the right idea.

You could try doing the 2 step mash/sparge process with your existing setup.

I don't have access to a mash tun. The weird thing is that I've made a very similar version of this recipe from a BYO article using their recipe for a partial mash. For that recipe I used my regular well tap water with good results. Maybe for this beer I should just stick to that method... don't fix what ain't broken right?

 

[GnenieGone]

I just looked over my latest stout. It's about 5%, came out low efficiency at 60%. I'm using new brewing equipment/technique. The posted pictures below are for a 3gal batch total of 4.89gal water used, 100% RO water I might add. It was mashed at 150 but I was aiming for 154, this will also make it "thin", too low mash temp. I have 1 water profile that I've learned to love with really any beer. 80ppm Calcium. 120ppm Choride. I aim for 5.4pH with dark brews and 5.3pH with light brews. Hopefully we can figure out your issue and come up with a game plan for your next attempt. PM me if you like.

 

[GnenieGone]

I don't have access to a mash tun. The weird thing is that I've made a very similar version of this recipe from a BYO article using their recipe for a partial mash. For that recipe I used my regular well tap water with good results. Maybe for this beer I should just stick to that method... don't fix what ain't broken right?

Do you know the mineral content of your tap water? Austin's is awful for brewing. We have access to RO water Kiosks tho, $2/5gal.

 

[camonick]

Do you know the mineral content of your tap water? Austin's is awful for brewing. We have access to RO water Kiosks tho, $2/5gal.

Yes, I have a Ward Labs report for my well water. I have it plugged into Bru'n Water and tinker with my dilution levels for each recipe. I dilute with RO water and use salts and lactic acid to get very close to the desired profile I’m working with. Here is a screenshot of the profile I used for my most recent batch. You can’t see the bottom of the page, but I also added 3.5 ml of 88% lactic acid to put my mash pH at 5.53

 

[camonick]

oops...
Screenshot

 

[GnenieGone]

I'm not able to read that. You must have really high pH. I don't use any lactic acid with stouts. Typically only a 1ml-1.5ml for the IPAs.

 

[camonick]

I'm not able to read that. You must have really high pH. I don't use any lactic acid with stouts. Typically only a 1ml-1.5ml for the IPAs.

Tapping/ clicking on the photo magnifies it... at least on my computer. That's the only way I can read it too.

Edit: Phone too

 

[GnenieGone]

I'm on the phone. Will look at a bit later.

 

[camonick]

I'm on the phone. Will look at a bit later.

Turning my phone sideways and tapping the pic works too.