Help lowering pH on a Pils!

[Cavpilot2000]

So this is my first foray into adjusting pH and brewing water.
I've never felt it necessary, since the beer I've been producing (mostly lighter German lagers) has been excellent.

But I finally got a water report and downloaded Brunwater to do the best Bavarian Pils I can possibly muster.

My water report says my starting pH is 7.9 and my grain bill (mostly Pilsner malt) only brings my pH to 5.89. I plan on using Acidulated malt, but according to Brunwater, even 8 oz (5.4%) only brings my pH down to 5.56.
My target is 5.3-5.4. How much acidulated malt can I add before it becomes too much? If already looking at half a pound of acidulated, should I consider a secondary means of bringing it down or just keep piling on the acidulated malt?

I am reading Yooper's water primer, but I'd like some specific advice if possible.

My water report is attached for reference.

 

[mabrungard]

At 75 ppm bicarb, there is a lot of neutralizing needed. The recommendations in the Primer are for RO water that has little bicarbonate content. So yes, you will need to hit the mash with more acid malt than you'll see mentioned in the Primer.

The other thing that needs to be addressed is the sparging water. The bicarb content and corresponding alkalinity are too high for the tap water to be used for sparging without neutralization. That is where a liquid acid is required. It is also a reason that I don't really advocate using acid malt. You have to have another acid source to neutralize the sparging water and you have to learn to dose your water properly. So if you are doing that, why the heck would you use acid malt too?

I also note that the tap water has higher than typical potassium. Has this water been run through some sort of softening system?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I used my own personal mash pH forecasting spreadsheet, and for a grain bill of 11 lbs. of straight Pilsner malt mashed in your water I calculated 4.875 ounces of acidulated malt for a mash pH of 5.4, or alternately 3.9 ml of 88% lactic acid added to the mash water for a mash pH of 5.4.

Eight ounces of acidulated malt seems high. But then again, you have not indicated how large a batch you are making.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I appreciate the input, guys. I will try to clarify a few things.
5 Gallon Batch (5.5 into fermenter)
9 lb pils malt
4 oz carahell
8 oz acidualted (currently a variable)
I am doing a no-sparge Hoch kurz step infusion mash (infusions calc'd so that the final infusion brings the mash up to full volume)

The other thing that needs to be addressed is the sparging water. The bicarb content and corresponding alkalinity are too high for the tap water to be used for sparging without neutralization. That is where a liquid acid is required. It is also a reason that I don't really advocate using acid malt. You have to have another acid source to neutralize the sparging water and you have to learn to dose your water properly. So if you are doing that, why the heck would you use acid malt too?

I also note that the tap water has higher than typical potassium. Has this water been run through some sort of softening system?

Not planning to sparge, as indicated above.
No softening system - straight from the town well.

I used my own personal mash pH forecasting spreadsheet, and for a grain bill of 11 lbs. of straight Pilsner malt mashed in your water I calculated 4.875 ounces of acidulated malt for a mash pH of 5.4, or alternately 3.9 ml of 88% lactic acid added to the mash water for a mash pH of 5.4.
Eight ounces of acidulated malt seems high. But then again, you have not indicated how large a batch you are making.

Details now provided above.

I do notice a discrepancy between spreadsheets (Brunwater gave what I indicated earlier, where Brewer's Friend put me at 5.2).

I do not have RO water, but I am open to diluting with distilled water. I did that last time I did a Pils to soften things up, and it was quite good.

Lastly, I am attempting Low O2, so I will be adding NaMeta, which is supposed to bring pH down another 0.1

 

[ajdelange]

Your water has alkalinity of 1.24 mEq/L. Assuming that you will be mashing with 3.5 gal of that and shooting for pH 5.4, you will need 15.5 mEq for the water. Assuming 10 lbs of a nominal Pils malt such as Weyermanns pneumatic product you will need 45 mEq of acid for that. Adding 1 pound of 20L crystal will give you back 7.5 mEq so your total requirement would be about 52 mEq. Add nothing and your estimated pH would be about 5.6. The Weyermann rule of thumb says 2% sauermalz would drop that to 5.4. In fact it appears that you would require a 3% (5.4 Oz) addition of sauermalz. Different base malt or crystal color or amount would of course change the answers. 3% sauermalz is well within the tolerated limits and adds to authenticity of you German beers as that what the Germans use (or sauergut) but you could get those 45 mEq from approximately 45 mL of 10% phosporic or 4 mL of 88% lactic acid.

Also, this is an edit, I forgot the sparge water. Add lactic to that until you reach pH 5.4 and Bob's your uncle.

Second edit: assuming no sparge and a total of 6.325 gal water (for 15% loss to 5.5 gal) the sauermalz requirement would go up to 3.7% (6.72 Oz). Certainly well below the levels where you will notice a 'problem'. You will also be getting more of the sauermalz 'complexity' into your beer. It is for this that one chooses to use sauermalz in this application rather than lactic acid from the bottle. Unless, of course, you don't like the sauermalz flavor for some reason.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Thanks for chiming in to help, AJ.

Adding 1 pound of 20L crystal will give you back 7.5 mEq so your total requirement would be about 52 mEq.

But 1 lb of any crystal would be way out of profile for a Bavarian Pils (or any Pils for that matter). I am brewing this for my GF's Bavarian (Franconian) father coming to visit in May - it's got to taste authentic!

With regard to sparge water, I don't plan to sparge, but now I am becoming concerned about step mash infusions.

If I add enough acid or sauermalz to get 5.4 at dough in, without treating my infusion water, I will be raising my pH for the later mash steps.
Is there a tool that accounts for stepped dilution for infusion mashes?

It seems to me that the solution is to use the appropriate amount of sauermalz for the lower temp (beta) rest pH, then acidify the infusion water, much like I would sparge water, to maintain desired pH (and check it with each infusion to verify).

Add lactic to that until you reach pH 5.4 and Bob's your uncle.

So if I use 3% sauermalz (my calc before said 5% or more, but that was for the full volume, not just mash-in volume) and get to target pH, and then add lactic acid to the infusion water to make it 5.4, do I risk too much lactic acid (enough to affect flavor)? I don't have phosphoric acid right now, and I don't think my LHBS carries it. I have Malic acid and winemaker's acid blend, but I don't think those are appropriate.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Okay, I went back and adjusted my numbers in BrunWater (this is my first time using it, so I'm still figuring it out), and I think I'm good as follows:

I plan on using 18 quarts of water for mash-in, 2 gallons of that being distilled water to dilute the bicarbonate.
The grist will consist of 6 oz of sauermalz (4%).

The water for the two infusions (2.5 gal) is being treated like sparge water with a target pH of 5.4. Brunwater recommends 1.0 ml of lactic acid. That seems a very small amount to affect the pH of 2.5 gallons, but I'm going to trust the software in this case rather than my inexperienced instinct.

This has me ending up with 5.4 throughout mash-in and all infusions.
1 campden tab (440 mg of NaMeta) might bring it down a point, but that should be fine.

Does this sound about right?

 

[ajdelange]

Lots of questions - quite natural at this point. My general advice to someone starting out as you are is to just cut with RO until alkalinity is under 1 mEq/L (50 ppm). 2:1::RO:tap would get you down to .31. Add half a gram per gallon CaCl2 and, add 3% sauermalz and go. Measure pH throughout the brew and learn from this as to how shy or over you are on the sauermalz. Discover what you want to do with the sulfate axis (you'll have virtually none after a 2:1 dilution) by tasting the beer with incremental sulfate additions to the glass.

Realistically you are not going to be able to replicate the beer you father in law is used to. At least not on the first shot. With lots of experimentation you probably will but homebrewers cannot usually get to the very low color levels of those beers.

The use of the 20 L crystal was meant to be an example which shows that even those relatively light colored crystal and caramel malts can contribute quite a lot of acid. As a matter of fact I use something like 10% of one of them in all my Pils and it is delicious. I don't really care much about style and at this point I don't think you should be either. You should be focused on producing a good light German lager and worrying about whether it matches the beers or northern Bavaria more than Southern Bavaria when you achieve that goal. My opinion obviously.

Don't obsess over the sauermalz until you understand the chemistry. Just go with the 3% but be sure to check mash pH. Better still do a small test mash and make adjustments according to what you find.

No, no spreadsheet is going to allow you to get the detailed infomation you are looking for except one you write yourself. It is actually not that hard to do but you need to understand water chemistry and malt acid base properties quite thoroughly. To see what this means read the Stickies above.

Sodium metabite is not used for its acid base properties but rather for its ability to reduce. It the course of its reduction of chloramine it does release H+ ions. In wort it is used to minimize color development and keep wort in a reduced state. I don't think its going to hurt but I don't think it's going to help either.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Lots of questions - quite natural at this point. My general advice to someone starting out as you are is to just cut with RO until alkalinity is under 1 mEq/L (50 ppm). 2:1::RO:tap would get you down to .31. Add half a gram per gallon CaCl2 and, add 3% sauermalz and go.

Question: I don't have CaCl on hand and I'd like to brew today. I can either skip it for this batch, which I don' think will hurt anything, or I do have Gypsum. Would that be okay in this case since my sulfates are low anyway?

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Go to a grocery store or somewhere that has canning supplies and buy Ball Pickle Crisp. My local OSH (Orchard Supply Hardware) carries it. It is CaCl prills. Looks like this:
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1489248958.016594.jpg

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Go to a grocery store or somewhere that has canning supplies and buy Ball Pickle Crisp. My local OSH (Orchard Supply Hardware) carries it. It is CaCl prills. Looks like this:

That's a great tip - Didn't know that. The grocery store is a 20 minute round trip. My LHBS is 45 min IF I don't get stuck chatting with staff (happens every time).

But can you address my question if you look at my water profile? Making a German Pils, I have basically zero sulfate. Wouldn't Gypsum be a decent option too? Then I get both Calcium AND Sulfate.

 

[ajdelange]

Well some Pils has it and some doesn't. I usually advise people starting out to leave it out in a first brew, then taste that beer with additions of calcium sulfate in the glass to see whether adding the sulfate detriments or improves it. You do have enough chloride in your water such that an alkalinity killing dilution of even 2:1 would leave about 18 mg/L Cl-. But you should have some calcium. The sulfate will supply that so in a pinch I'd say go ahead and use it unless you are using one of the noble hops. Then you want sulfate low (if your palate is like most peoples') and you should stick to the pickle crisp until and if you demonstrate a preference for sulfate by taste test.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Thanks for the input, all. AJ, I missed your message before I brewed, but it's fine.
I ended up using 5 oz (3%) acidulated malt and a little gypsum. I also diluted the batch with 4 gallons of distilled water and acidified the infusion water with lactic acid (need to get some phosphoric).
What the hell, it's only beer, right? ;-)
My additional research suggested that a combination of CaCl and gypsum might be my best bet, but oh well,
Ended up with a mash pH of 5.3 after a conservative NaMeta addition (I'm testing the Low O2 theory as well) and I was happy with that.

My plan is that in two weeks, I am going to brew the exact same beer again, but with CaCl instead of Gypsum. Then I will be able to side-by-side taste the difference in sensory/flavor contribution as a learning point. And one of them (if not both) should turn out good, so I'll be happy about that.

Thanks again for the input. Every time I think I've got this brewing thing down, I add another wrinkle and the learning continues.

 

[ajdelange]

That will happen as long as you keep brewing and is one of the reasons this is such a great hobby.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Yeah. I've actualy been brewing for about 15 years, but it used to only be extract and grains and only 2-3 batches a year. When I switched to all-grain and started brewing 15+ batches a year three years ago is when I feel like my brewing "career" really started. There is no substitute for doing it. A lot.