Help interpreting water report re:astringency

[macaronijones]

I've been reading a lot about various ions, ratios, etc. with regards to water profiles and find myself just getting more confused, too many variables at play.

I've done about four all grain BIAB batches so far and while I have been generally been pleased with the results, each one seems to have a residual astringent aftertase. I've done a hefe, a black IPA, a Irish red, and an american wheat, so not just one style. It's a drying/puckering sensation at the back of the throat, I think "astringency" seems to be the best description, and I'm wondering if it has to do with my water.

After doing some reading about alkalinity and astringency I thought that was most certainly the culprit, but after reviewing my local water report (alkalinity 24 mg/l) it seems that's unlikely. The rest of the relevant sections of my water report are attached.

So for those with more experience interpreting these, is there anything in there that could cause this sensation, or should I start considering other parts of my process (for completeness sake, I do full volume BIAB at recommended temps with no sparge, ferment at about 66)? Thanks in advance.

 

[mabrungard]

That water appears to be well-suited for brewing. However, it still requires treatment to bring the wort pH down into a desirable range. Are you adding an acid or calcium salts to help acidify the mash and wort? If not, you need to in most cases. Since you are performing a BIAB and the water/grist ratio is kind of thin, that little bit of alkalinity could easily overwhelm the acidity of the grist.

 

[macaronijones]

Thanks for the reply. No, I haven't yet experimented with adjusting the water or pH in any way. For most beers, would this most easily be accomplished by adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride and 2% sauermalz as mentioned in the primer thread? That's working up from RO water though, so with my particular water would I do the same?

I'm brewing an oatmeal stout today, I'm wondering if the acidity in the grains will be enough to get me into the right range. I picked up some pH strips and calcium chloride from the store today as well. Am considering going to the co-op next door to get RO water, but if my water is easily enough modified I'd be glad to skip that step.

 

[ajdelange]

Your alkalinity is 24/50 = 0.48 mEq/L which is low enough that it probably would not be a problem for you but as most stouts actually need a little acid you might want to think about adding the extra acid (about 0.43 mEq/L) necessary to knock it out.

We note that your sulfate is at 57 mg/L. For some people that is enough to cause problems (though for the majority it isn't) so perhaps you should try this brew with RO water to see if the astringency goes away.

 

[IloveWorts]

Can you give a run down of what your water process is in preparing your water?

 

[macaronijones]

Thanks. Yeah I think I'll do this one with RO and a teaspoon of calcium chloride as per the primer thread. Hopefully this will help with the astringency, although I suppose it may not have been as noticeable anyways since it's a stout. I'll have to try something lighter or one I did before to really see if that's the difference.

In general with BIAB and a lower grist:water ratio will I need to be making more than the baseline adjustments with calcium chloride and sauermalz?

 

[macaronijones]

Can you give a run down of what your water process is in preparing your water?

To date, nothing. Just tap water for everything without checking pH.

 

[ajdelange]

Yeah I think I'll do this one with RO and a teaspoon of calcium chloride as per the primer thread.

I'd back that off to half a tsp/5 gal.

In general with BIAB and a lower grist:water ratio will I need to be making more than the baseline adjustments with calcium chloride and sauermalz?

No as the water brings nothing to the party you don't have to compensate for it.

 

[dyqik]

To date, nothing. Just tap water for everything without checking pH.

Are you treating with Campden tablets/sodium metabisulfite to remove the chloramine/chlorine?

 

[macaronijones]

Are you treating with Campden tablets/sodium metabisulfite to remove the chloramine/chlorine?

I haven't yet, no. I also haven't tasted the type of off-flavors I've read about being associated with those. They are both shown above at a level of 2.0 - is this an amount that needs addressing or that could cause the astringency I've noticed in my beers? Thanks.

 

[macaronijones]

I'd back that off to half a tsp/5 gal.

That's exactly what I did, thanks for your help.

 

[dyqik]

I haven't yet, no. I also haven't tasted the type of off-flavors I've read about being associated with those. They are both shown above at a level of 2.0 - is this an amount that needs addressing or that could cause the astringency I've noticed in my beers? Thanks.

IMO, yes, both on the steady base level, but also because the level is likely to rise at certain times of the year.

The recommendation of using 1/4 of a Campden tablet per 5g of water is based on a maximum assumed concentration of 3 mg/L - for higher concentrations you need even more. At a measured 2 mg/L, you are right in the range where the usual 1/4 Campden tablet per 5g recommendation seems to be designed to work (which is a backwards way of looking at what level needs treatment, but since the level in the your water is likely to be set as the level required to provide effective disinfecting of the water system, that does all tie together and make sense, if you see what I mean. If water companies are going to put chloramine in the water, they are going to put enough in to do it's job. It's that concentration that the Campden tablet advice is set for).

I've just had a batch that had to be dumped because of what tasted like a strong chloramine problem when tasted warmer from the FG sample, or after a poured beer warmed a little. When cold and carbonated straight after pouring, the taste was less distinctive and more what I'd call astringent. At lower levels of chloramine/chlorine, I'd expect that the taste would be more like a vague astringency.

For that batch, that is despite Campden tablet treatment at the usual dosage btw, but I know my town is having issues related to the chlorine/chloramine treatment right now, so the levels could be more than the usual Campden tablet dosage can deal with.

 

[ajdelange]

The sticky at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073 goes into some detail on how to deal with chloramine.

 

[macaronijones]

Interesting stuff. Living just steps away from a store that sells RO water for 69 cents/gallon I think I'm just going to start building my water from that with minor additions as suggested in the primer thread. Seems simpler that way and the additional cost is negligible.

 

[IloveWorts]

IMO, yes, both on the steady base level, but also because the level is likely to rise at certain times of the year.

The recommendation of using 1/4 of a Campden tablet per 5g of water is based on a maximum assumed concentration of 3 mg/L - for higher concentrations you need even more. At a measured 2 mg/L, you are right in the range where the usual 1/4 Campden tablet per 5g recommendation seems to be designed to work (which is a backwards way of looking at what level needs treatment, but since the level in the your water is likely to be set as the level required to provide effective disinfecting of the water system, that does all tie together and make sense, if you see what I mean. If water companies are going to put chloramine in the water, they are going to put enough in to do it's job. It's that concentration that the Campden tablet advice is set for).

I've just had a batch that had to be dumped because of what tasted like a strong chloramine problem when tasted warmer from the FG sample, or after a poured beer warmed a little. When cold and carbonated straight after pouring, the taste was less distinctive and more what I'd call astringent. At lower levels of chloramine/chlorine, I'd expect that the taste would be more like a vague astringency.

For that batch, that is despite Campden tablet treatment at the usual dosage btw, but I know my town is having issues related to the chlorine/chloramine treatment right now, so the levels could be more than the usual Campden tablet dosage can deal with.

Cant you just skip the Campden tablets and just use a carbon filter? those damn tablets are a bitch to dissolve anyways

 

[wapitiscat]

Cant you just skip the Campden tablets and just use a carbon filter? those damn tablets are a bitch to dissolve anyways

I crush mine with a mortar and pestle. I'm fancy that way.

Todd

 

[dyqik]

Cant you just skip the Campden tablets and just use a carbon filter? those damn tablets are a bitch to dissolve anyways

See the sticky on Campden tablets - carbon filters are not very efficient at removing chloramine. You need a fresh filter, and you need to keep the flow below 0.1gal/min. So you need to spend nearly 2 hours collecting your water for a 5g batch.

And I don't even have any filters in my house.

 

[IloveWorts]

See the sticky on Campden tablets - carbon filters are not very efficient at removing chloramine. You need a fresh filter, and you need to keep the flow below 0.1gal/min. So you need to spend nearly 2 hours collecting your water for a 5g batch.

And I don't even have any filters in my house.

Son of a bitch, really? was just going to get a filter tomorrow seeing how I'm brewing this weekend. So what is my best option. Using the crushed recommended Campden tabs then letting it sit for a few hours then boiling?

 

[ajdelange]

You could always try reading the Sticky.

 

[mabrungard]

Using the crushed recommended Campden tabs then letting it sit for a few hours then boiling?

The reaction is instantaneous. No need to wait. Just make sure the tablet solids are fully dissolved.

 

[ajdelange]

As it says in the Sticky it isn't really necessary that all the material in the tablet dissolve and that's a good thing too as you will be there till Michaelmas trying to get it to. The reason it doesn't matter is because you will get enough into solution to do the job and any particles that make it into the mash will simply turn into sulfur dioxide and go off to reduce something which is usually a good thing. If this bothers you though just be careful when pouring off the liquid such that the undissolved particles are left behind.

 

[Jimbodaman]

Slightly off topic but I fill up my 8 gallon brew pot with 5 gallons and my 4 gallon brew pot with necessary sparge water about a 3-5 days before brew day and let it sit with the lid off I heard it gets rid of chlorine/chloramine. My astringent flavors have disappeared since using this extremely simple method. (I also have very soft water)

 

[ajdelange]

You guys really should try reading the Stickies sometimes. No kidding. There is useful information in them! As it says in the Sticky, standing for several days can clear chloramine (from small volumes).