Help Fix My British Brown Ale Recipe

[AlexKay]

I just dumped a batch (only one gallon, though!) of this recipe:

2.5 lbs. English pale
0.15 lb. Fawcett Medium Crystal
0.15 lb. flaked oats
0.1 lbs. pale chocolate

5 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 60 min.
7 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 5 min.

Lallemand London

OG 1.056/FG 1.006/ABV 6.6% (FG measured with refractometer and corrected value calculated ... but not sure I trust it, as London doesn't really attenuate this much!)

It is really unpleasantly sweet; I didn't expect cloying caramel from the above recipe. My first reaction is to lower the ABV, up the hops, and lower the crystal, so:

1.8 lbs. English pale
0.05 lb. Fawcett Medium Crystal
0.1 lb. flaked oats
0.15 lbs. pale chocolate

8 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 60 min.
8 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 5 min.

Lallemand London

Is this swinging too far in the other direction? Should I also switch to Nottingham?

I know I can iterate until I'm happy with the results, but I'd prefer to get there in fewer steps, with less bad beer along the way.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Unpleasantly sweet at 1.006?! Was it fully carbed? How long in the bottle?

 

[AlexKay]

Unpleasantly sweet at 1.006?! Was it fully carbed? How long in the bottle?

As I said, I don't trust the 1.006 measurement. I can't see any reason it would be wrong, but ... it seems wrong, and it didn't taste that attenuated.

Fully carbed (probably even a little high for the style) and cold from the keg.

 

[DBhomebrew]

How long in the keg? How cold?

 

[TheMadKing]

I would add a healthy dose of brown malt, and increase the IBU by about 10 pts

it will add a toasty dry character that will help balance out the sweetness.

English browns are supposed to be very sweet though. I agree it's hard to imagine a sweet beer at that FG, but what are you IBU?

 

[AlexKay]

How long in the keg? How cold?

A couple of weeks, in a 1.75-gallon keg (which, believe it or not, carbs up rather faster than a 5-gallon.). And it was quite bubbly on the tongue.

 

[AlexKay]

I would add a healthy dose of brown malt, and increase the IBU by about 10 pts

it will add a toasty dry character that will help balance out the sweetness.

English browns are supposed to be very sweet though. I agree it's hard to imagine a sweet beer at that FG, but what are you IBU?

IBU calculator says 18. A little low, now that I’m looking at it, especially given the strength.

For what it might be worth, BJCP guidelines say “gentle to moderate” sweetness, and I’m guessing for my taste, I’ll be happier with “gentle.”

Will order some brown malt. It’s not normally part of my arsenal. 10% of the grist, what do you think?

 

[DBhomebrew]

English beers should never be anything other than balanced and drinkable.

A couple of weeks might not have enough. Carbed is only half the goal of conditioning.

A recent experience of mine with a brown ale...

"I tried a bottle at 3wks conditioning and was utterly disappointed. Sharp, sweet, blech. Patience won the day. Really, truly pleased with it now, down to the bottom of the glass."

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/post-10215230

 

[TheMadKing]

IBU calculator says 18. A little low, now that I’m looking at it, especially given the strength.

For what it might be worth, BJCP guidelines say “gentle to moderate” sweetness, and I’m guessing for my taste, I’ll be happier with “gentle.”

Will order some brown malt. It’s not normally part of my arsenal. 10% of the grist, what do you think?

10% sounds good to me, you'll need to adjust that roast malt to get your color right. Also forewarning brown malt tastes harsh when its young. It will mellow, smooth, and get more complex with time

 

[AlexKay]

English beers should never be anything other than balanced and drinkable.

A couple of weeks might not have enough. Carbed is only half the goal of conditioning.

A recent experience of mine with a brown ale...

"I tried a bottle at 3wks conditioning and was utterly disappointed. Sharp, sweet, blech. Patience won the day. Really, truly pleased with it now, down to the bottom of the glass."

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/post-10215230

Cool. Well, I didn't actually dump it, just took it off the tap. I'll keep it and let the keg sit. I can store it at either 35 or 55 F; which would be preferable? And when do you think the time to try it again might be?

 

[DBhomebrew]

55 would be typical cellar temp. Steady temp is more important than any temp in particular. Mine started to really shine at 3mo.

 

[SanPancho]

I would add a healthy dose of brown malt, and increase the IBU by about 10 pts

THIS^^ i'm not a BCJP whore so i could give a $h!t about guidelines, dont care about being "authentic" in any way. But i will absolutely say to anyone anywhere who deems to make a beer they call some sort of "brown" that if there isnt at least 25% brown malt in there they are failing at life.

brown malt is amazing. you could literally just use base malt and brown and it would be delicious.

i only make two beers that are "dark" in any way. black lager/cafe de la olla, and a brown lager.

did i say amazing? BROWN MALT SIR.

 

[AlexKay]

Lots of good stuff to work with ... thanks!

Rethinking things, here's where I'm at, again for a ~1 gallon batch, which I will brew once the brown malt arrives:

1.75 lbs. English pale
0.25 lbs. brown
0.05 lb. Fawcett Medium Crystal
0.05 lbs. pale chocolate

2 g Pilgrim (10.5% AA) @ 60 min.
8 g Pilgrim (10.5% AA) @ 5 min.

Lallemand London

for a predicted SG of 1.041 and 25 IBU.

 

[Broken Crow]

Just my own biased opinion: The advice you've got over the grains I totally agree with. I've not used Pilgrim, but the majority of my own brews being English styles, I usually stick with Fuggles, EKG's and their immediate relatives. I absolutely love Lallemand London for my bitters, but have been disappointed with it and any other style...Personally, I'd use Notty or S-04...never had excessive 'sweetness' whenI've used them, just delicious darks, ambers and stout.

 

[mac_1103]

The Nut Brown Ale that I'm about to run out of is so much better at three months than it was at three weeks that it's almost not even the same beer. Really wish I'd saved more of it.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

For sure, brown malt is the way to go for a solid brown ale, sounds silly I know. I would do Admiral as your bittering hop and Fuggles or EKG or Target as your flavor/aroma hop! For the yeast, Nottingham or S-04 would be a better fit.

 

[AlexKay]

For sure, brown malt is the way to go for a solid brown ale, sounds silly I know. I would do Admiral as your bittering hop and Fuggles or EKG or Target as your flavor/aroma hop! For the yeast, Nottingham or S-04 would be a better fit.

I've got some Pilgrim and need to try it! It's supposed to be similar to EKG and Challenger, and it's a born-and-bred English hop. Some sources talk of notes of citrus and other fruit, though, which might not be as appropriate in a brown ale. Maybe I'll wait for my next bitter.

My hands are a little tied vis-a-vis yeast if I want to do this soon (I do!) since my fermentation chamber will be at ~70 F. I generally do Nottingham a bit colder, though Lallemand says the range extends to 72 F. I might try that, then.

And the brown malt is on its way.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I am a lover if brown ales, so this has piqued my interest. Curious to see how this one goes! Pictures and all are expected now

 

[bellhp]

Guessing you wouldn't like the one I brewed last night . Lots of crystal but when I tasted the brown malt I decreased its percentage as It had a strong roast flavor .
80% Maris Otter
10% Crystal 40
5% Brown malt
5% pale chocolate
Nottingham yeast.
Goldings at 25 ibu
OG 1.056
I'm experimenting and this is the first 1 gallon batch of " Beer Hunter" Deer camp brown .
Might suck but I gotta start somewhere. Good luck with your recipe .

 

[Airborneguy]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1339652/atonement-brown-porter

 

[MBensch]

I made a best bitter a few months ago and used Lallemand London ESB yeast. FG was 1.016 and the beer turned out way too sweet and cloying. AlexKay, maybe you can take another reading?

I recently tried the exact same recipe but using Fermentis S-04 and FG was 1.010 and tasted much better, dry with a nice English estery character.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

20 replies, LalBrew London™ yeast, and no one asked about the mash process .

The CYBI Moose Drool clone recipe may worth a look. It's an American brown. No brown malt, just crystal and chocolate (and smidgen of black malt for color). eta: it's not sweet and certainly not cloyingly sweet. I wonder if it's a BJCP commercial example

(also eta): For an English brown, clone recipes for Newcastle Brown and/or Samuel Smith’s Nut Brown may be worth a look.

 

[AlexKay]

20 replies, LalBrew London™ yeast, and no one asked about the mash process .

Mashed looooow, 146 F or so for 60 minutes.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I made a best bitter a few months ago and used Lallemand London ESB yeast. FG was 1.016 and the beer turned out way too sweet and cloying. AlexKay, maybe you can take another reading?

I recently tried the exact same recipe but using Fermentis S-04 and FG was 1.010 and tasted much better, dry with a nice English estery character.

I made a Best Bitter last summer and also fermented it with Lallemand London ESB yeast. Like yours mine also finished at 1.016, but I wouldn't describe mine as cloyingly sweet. Mine was delicious, although admittedly I haven't had many Best Bitters to compare it to. I mashed mine at 154°. I'd like to brew the same recipe again but I think I'd mash it at a little lower temperature and I like the S-04 idea.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Mashed looooow, 146 F or so for 60 minutes.

This may help explain how London went from 56 to 6 (~ 89% AA).

So does the sweetness come from the crystal? or from the very highly fermentable wort?

 

[AlexKay]

This may help explain how London went from 56 to 6 (~ 89% AA).

So does the sweetness come from the crystal? or from the very highly fermentable wort?

I don't entirely believe that FG number.

My thoughts were either the crystal or the high ABV (ethanol is sweet!) Or both. Going to try to cut back on both on the next batch, plus adding brown malt (which just shipped today.) Still on the fence about using London again or switching to Nottingham.

 

[tracer bullet]

FWIW the recipe looks like a good one to me. Did you have anyone else try a beer, give their opinion?

Curious if it's maybe just a style you don't care for, or if something actually got messed up.

 

[AlexKay]

FWIW the recipe looks like a good one to me. Did you have anyone else try a beer, give their opinion?

Curious if it's maybe just a style you don't care for, or if something actually got messed up.

It might be someone else's cup of tea (I don't like sweet tea either.) I'm going to work on it. If it ends up tasting more like a dark mild, well ... dark mild is good.

 

[tracer bullet]

I think you'll be happy with some brown malt. It and pale choc are different but in the neighborhood of each other for me. You could consider sticking with a pinch of chocolate instead. There are many variations on a theme and the pale chocolate would be good. I like some Victory in mine as well, and / or golden naked oats, but you can quickly have too many different malts.

Your crystal might be disagreeing with you? Maybe something more like an American C40 would do it? In addition to the lower amount?

Yeast choice might be big here. Maybe something known to give a drier finish? Wy1098? Or were you fairly happy with the dry London, other than the sweetness? I'm sure there are dry yeast options for a dry finish, I'm just not very familiar with them.

Water additions could be a consideration too - add some S04 and / or reduce some Cl?

 

[AlexKay]

Your crystal might be disagreeing with you? Maybe something more like an American C40 would do it? In addition to the lower amount?

You can have my English crystal when you pry it from my cold, dead Vittles Vaults. But maybe I could switch to Crisp 77L.

Yeast choice might be big here. Maybe something known to give a drier finish? Wy1098? Or were you fairly happy with the dry London, other than the sweetness? I'm sure there are dry yeast options for a dry finish, I'm just not very familiar with them.

I like other beers with London. But Nottingham would be drier, I'm pretty sure. I'm stuck with dry yeast for the moment, as I'm working from stock on hand.

Water additions could be a consideration too - add some S04 and / or reduce some Cl?

Good point! It was 95/55 chloride/sulfate. Will swap that.

 

[tracer bullet]

You can have my English crystal when you pry it from my cold, dead Vittles Vaults.

LOL. Well you might be on top of the crystals then. I tend to love them, but some are fairly sweet. Seems you are already aware.

 

[Hopalong]

THIS^^ i'm not a BCJP whore so i could give a $h!t about guidelines, dont care about being "authentic" in any way. But i will absolutely say to anyone anywhere who deems to make a beer they call some sort of "brown" that if there isnt at least 25% brown malt in there they are failing at life.

brown malt is amazing. you could literally just use base malt and brown and it would be delicious.

i only make two beers that are "dark" in any way. black lager/cafe de la olla, and a brown lager.

did i say amazing? BROWN MALT SIR.

I just dumped a batch (only one gallon, though!) of this recipe:

2.5 lbs. English pale
0.15 lb. Fawcett Medium Crystal
0.15 lb. flaked oats
0.1 lbs. pale chocolate

5 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 60 min.
7 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 5 min.

Lallemand London

OG 1.056/FG 1.006/ABV 6.6% (FG measured with refractometer and corrected value calculated ... but not sure I trust it, as London doesn't really attenuate this much!)

It is really unpleasantly sweet; I didn't expect cloying caramel from the above recipe. My first reaction is to lower the ABV, up the hops, and lower the crystal, so:

1.8 lbs. English pale
0.05 lb. Fawcett Medium Crystal
0.1 lb. flaked oats
0.15 lbs. pale chocolate

8 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 60 min.
8 g Fuggle (4.6% AA) @ 5 min.

Lallemand London

Is this swinging too far in the other direction? Should I also switch to Nottingham?

How did you make the beer, single temperature infusion? The higher the rest temperature the sweeter and lower in ABV beer turns out. To determine ABV, attenuation and efficiency a special gadget is used that has degassing filters and a small still. A spy glass and a formula are not accurate.

THIS^^ i'm not a BCJP whore so i could give a $h!t about guidelines, dont care about being "authentic" in any way. But i will absolutely say to anyone anywhere who deems to make a beer they call some sort of "brown" that if there isnt at least 25% brown malt in there they are failing at life.

brown malt is amazing. you could literally just use base malt and brown and it would be delicious.

i only make two beers that are "dark" in any way. black lager/cafe de la olla, and a brown lager.

 

[MBensch]

I don't entirely believe that FG number.

My thoughts were either the crystal or the high ABV (ethanol is sweet!) Or both. Going to try to cut back on both on the next batch, plus adding brown malt (which just shipped today.) Still on the fence about using London again or switching to Nottingham.

Playing around with different yeast strains will be interesting. London doesn't utilise maltotriose, where Nottingham seems to be better at it. As BrewnWKopperKat said, you have to talk about mash temp when you talk about yeast. This is from the London ESB technical data sheet:

"LalBrew London™ does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units). Maltotriose comprises an average of 10-15% of total sugar in all-malt worts. The result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in the beer. Be advised to adjust gravities and mash temperatures according to desired result. "