Help Diagnosing Off Flavor in APA

[fishguy5]

Greetings Homebrewers,

I’m new to homebrewing and I just want to start out by saying that this site has been an immense help, time and time again. Thanks to all!

I need help diagnosing an off flavor in an APA I recently brewed. This is my tenth batch and my third all grain batch. My extract batches weren’t bad, my first attempt at all grain was horrible, and my second all-gran brew drinkable. When I cracked the bottle on this third batch and took my first sip, I proudly proclaimed to myself: “Got it!”

Then, just on the back end, a funny flavor. The major trouble I’m having is I can’t quite describe it and, indeed, thought about posting here when the issue came up, but decided no one would be able to help me if I couldn’t precisely explain the off-flavor. Nor have any of the “diagnosing off-flavor” guides in books and online been helpful. But now I’m starting to drive myself insane and thought I’d appeal to everyone here for help.

So let me do my best to try and explain the off-flavor. The beer smells wonderful and I pick up no off-scents. The off-flavor only comes at the end of a taste, just as I’m swallowing. It’s sort of vegetal, but not the “cream-corned” flavor that sources use to describe DMS. It’s maybe a bit rancid, but doesn’t have the “buttery” flavor sources use to describe diacetyl. Maybe it’s oxidation, but I’ve had oxidized beers before and this seems nothing like those.

So, in sum: help! If no one has any ideas, then some guidelines on how to detect and describe off-flavors would be useful. Of, perhaps there’s more information I could provide that will help you help me.

The beer was brewed with a fairly standard grain bill: 2-row, a bit of crystal, nothing fancy, hopped with cascade and citra, fermented for three weeks with WYeast 1056, then bottle conditioned using corn sugar for another three weeks.

Thanks so much for any help you can offer!

 

[joshesmusica]

Do you have temp control?

What are you using to sanitize?

Did you make a starter?

Did you dry hop?

How old were the hops, and how were they stored?

 

[fishguy5]

Do you have temp control?
Not really. I kept the brew bucket in a cold unused bathroom, then used a space heater to regulate temperature. I kept the temp in the room in the mid-60s and the stick-on-thermometer on the brew bucket consistently registered at 68, until fermentation stopped. I know this is a far from ideal set up and there likely were some minor temp swings. I think my next big brewing investment is going to be in the fermentation temperature control

What are you using to sanitize?
StarSan, diluted to what it says on the back of the bottle.

Did you make a starter?
Yes. Can't remember size off hand, but did what the MrMalty calculator told me to do. I didn't decant.

Did you dry hop?
Yes. 1 oz. cascade and 1/2 oz citra for one week.

How old were the hops, and how were they stored?
Good question, as I wondered if the hops were somehow to blame, since the off flavor seems to come right at the end, just when you would expect that slight and pleasant bitter hop taste. I dismissed this, though, because I saw little online about bad hops, but maybe I'm wrong? I bought the hops from my LHBS. Whole cone, vacuum sealed in one of those silver bag.s They were, of course, in my LHBS's freezer, but have no idea how they were stored before they got there. Date? No idea. The only thing written on the bag was the type and AA. I'm in Oregon, right in the heart of hops-growing country, so I would hope they were relatively fresh, but have no way of verifying that.

Thanks, joshesmusica (and anyone else who wants to chime in), for taking on my case, so to speak. I'm certain diagnosing these sorts of things online isn't easy.

 

[joshesmusica]

Thanks, joshesmusica (and anyone else who wants to chime in), for taking on my case, so to speak. I'm certain diagnosing these sorts of things online isn't easy.

Haha, not always, no.

All of those questions could have led to some sort of off-flavor, that's why they were all asked.

As far as the temp control, if you're having to warm it to keep it in the mid-60s, then you're probably good to go in that department. Although, I still would invest in that before I invested in anything else (aka, a chest freezer and controller). It's one of the most underestimated causes of off-flavors, in my opinion (and oddly enough I just listened to a podcast today with the owner of The Yeast Bay, and it was the one thing he absolutely recommended as well).

I doubt that the hops were old, but it might be something to check on. I'm guessing that you used them straight out of the package and didn't store them in an opened package in a warm room without sealing the package again?

The reason why I asked those questions is that a vegetal off-flavor can come from hops, and the DMS-type vegetal flavor can also come from some wild yeast.

How long are you soaking everything in the Starsan before they're touching the beer?

A rancid, almost vegetal off-flavor sounds like it's coming from the hops (which I highly doubt unless they were packaged poorly, because citra/cascade is one of the best combos out there), or from some kind of infection/wild yeast.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that it's something your mind is creating. This could be the case if you're a pretty skeptical person to begin with, especially when it comes to your own creations. The mind is a pretty tricky thing, and if you're convinced from the beginning that you won't be able to create a flawless product, then you will automatically taste some random off-flavor. I am this type of perfectionist, and often taste something a bit off from my beer that others can't.

 

[Lazer Wolf Brewing]

I am a total beginner here, but just wanted to throw out an idea.

I've heard that dry hopping can sometimes lead to a "grassy" off flavor if left in too long. You said "vegetal" so that is one thing that came to my mind. Now, can the grassy flavor come about from 1 week of dry hopping 1.5ozs? I dont know, I'll leave that to the experts.

 

[joshesmusica]

Now, can the grassy flavor come about from 1 week of dry hopping 1.5ozs? I dont know, I'll leave that to the experts.

I'm no expert, but no. Not at all. The typical dry hop length is 4-7 days.

 

[Subdivisions]

Ya, It's not the dry hop. Not long enough for those flavors to develop.

Let's talk about water. Are you using tap water? If so are you using campden tablets to get rid of chloramine and chlorine in the water?

Are you using reverse osmosis or distilled water with your all grain process? If so then you need to add some minerals back into the water.

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree with @joshesmusica that temperature control is an important thing to rule out.

I have had a consistent off flavor in my beers that I would describe as "grainy" or "yeasty" not quite like DMS but in that neighborhood.

I tasted a pale ale (which was good by most standards) side by side with Big Sky's Pygmy Itty Bitty IPA. They have similar hop bills and similar alcohol percentages.

Big Sky's beer however was infinitely "cleaner" on the malt/yeast side of things and I immediately became aware of the off flavor in my own beer.

Temperature control fixed it for me. What I was tasting was esters and phenols from warm or inconsistent fermentation temps.

Now I'm able to make a beer without that flavor unless it's desired (such as in a hefeweizen)

 

[ThomasPaine]

Any chlorine in your water? The off flavors caused by chlorine can be subtle to unbearable. The more hops and dark malts you use, the less noticeable it can be.

 

[dkennedy]

My first guess would be temperature, sounds like that is under control for this batch. Water and chlorine/chloramines can make for odd finishes.

 

[joshesmusica]

Also, are you pouring from a bottle or from a keg? Is the beer still quite cloudy from the yeast? It could be too much yeast still in suspension, if it's from a keg. If it's from a bottle, it could be that you're pouring the entire bottle in the glass?

 

[madscientist451]

Did you come up with the recipe/process yourself? Maybe you just don't like this particular beer. A good practice for beginning brewers is to make a clone recipe of a beer they like, then you can compare your version with the commercial example and make changes to your ingredients/process. All malts and crystal aren't created the same, some can have different flavors and along with all the different hops available there are just too many variables to figure out what is producing a slight off flavor you are describing.
Anyone can go to the home brew store and throw together some ingredients, that doesn't mean the resulting beer will suit their particular taste.

 

[fishguy5]

Wow, everybody. Thanks for the great replies!

I definitely agree with you, joshesmusica, that a large part of this could be in my mind. Friends I’ve given bottles to didn’t notice anything until I pointed it out. Nor did my girlfriend taste anything amiss until I said something, and now, I can assure you, she’s quite sick of me shoving a glass in her face, asking her to take a sip, while I sit there with Palmer’s book, open to the off-flavor section, asking her, “would you describe the off-flavor as ______?”

I also considered water as a culprit. While I live in an Oregon town known for good brewing water, I live in a very old house, with old pipes, and the water has some funny flavors. We don’t drink from the tap. So I used 100% RO water for this batch. That’s bottled RO water I bought off the shelf in the local grocery store. The RO machine outside looked a bit sketchy and I wasn’t confident it’d been properly maintained. Then I made additions following the “yellow balanced” profile on Bru’n Water. I thought that was a pretty conservative water profile and would be a good place to start, but maybe not? Or maybe I screwed up a measurement? If water is off and I added too much gypsum or anything else, how might a flavor like that express itself?

You make a great point, madscientist451. Next batch is going to be a proven clone. Maybe this “off flavor” is something someone wanted?