Help diagnose my beer! :-D

[LazyIPA]

Hi everyone!

I brewed extract kits back in college but recently made the jump to all-grain. I went for "We Like Space" from morebeer, a double Hazy IPA. Mine wound up more like a single b/c I missed my original gravity, so I'm sitting at around 7% rather than 8+.

Fermented with Cellar Science Nectar and fermentation smelled fruity and fantastic throughout! I dry hopped 3 days before bottling. Total time in an SS BrewTech Brew Bucket Fermenter, about 15 days. Final gravity was about 1018 with an original gravity of 1069 or so. The final gravity sample tasted pretty good! I was excited! I "soft crashed" to about 50f by leaving it outside the night before bottling, but when I opened the fermenter the next day, all the dry hop pellets were dissolved, but still floating on top. As I bottled it, I had quite a bit of hop sediment trying to come through and had to clear the bottling wand a few times. Bottled into 22oz bombers with x2 carbonation drops in each.

Has been resting at about 70 degrees for 14 days. I put a few in the fridge and this is what it looks like. Kind of big bubbles, smells awesome, tastes a bit "yeasty" with a hit of yeast up front, followed by fruit and then kind of a funky "tart" finish. Not really getting anything particularly off-putting, but it definitely tastes like "home-grown" rather than commercial, which is less than I was expecting from trying it right out of the fermenter. The yeast flavor is definitely throwing it off.

So my question is, what can I do now?

Leave it longer warm?
Leave it longer cold?
Drink it and "oh well"?

I know most people would say give it another week or two, but I'm worried about oxidation effects everyone worries about with NE style IPAs.

I've seen some people say bottle hazy's for no more than a week before drinking, while others say leave your beer 3-4 weeks before trying. Not really noticing any oxidation yet.

So the questions I have are:

Do the bigger bubbles mean it needs more time at room temp?
Does the yeasty flavor mean it needs more time at room temp/and/or cold-time? There was a pretty solid 1-2mm layer of yeast/trub at the bottom of the bottle.

Thanks!

 

[bracconiere]

Does the yeasty flavor

The yeast flavor is definitely throwing it off.

when i asked the brew pub guy about yeasty flavor....he basicly winked and told me to sparge cooler, because he knew it was tannins...

how did you sparge?


edit: i'd ask is it a harsh yeasty flavor or smooth? harsh yeasty would actually be tannins...AFAiK

 

[LazyIPA]

That’s interesting. So I’ve been making Sourdough bread (and starter) for over 2 years now. I‘m pretty attuned to what yeast “smells like” but haven’t really tasted it raw. I’d say the prominent taste up front from the beer is what my Sourdough starter *smells like*, if that makes sense? The super weird thing is the beer smells absolutely great, not yeasty at all, as confirmed by two other friends who were over at the time. I sparged with about 4 gallons of lactic acid adjusted 170F water according to the recommendation by BrunWater . It was 2 gallons more than BrewFather recommends (but I wasn’t using then) and is probably why my OG was low. Somehow, I still wound up with the right amount, 5.5 gallons, going into the fermenter after the boil, so not exactly sure what was going on, but it was my first time working with the Brewzilla 35L and I was a bit overwhelmed to be taking super detail notes, etc... I think my primary fermentation could have maybe sat for another week and/or I should have properly cold-crashed (but I didn’t have my keezer yet) but it still perplexes me that everyone says to get Hazy IPAs out of the fermenter as soon as possible and limit oxygen transfer (which is why I didn’t use a bottling bucket, and bottled directly from the fermenter).

 

[bracconiere]

I’d say the prominent taste up front from the beer is what my Sourdough starter *smells like*, if that makes sense?

i'm just trying to be a sounding post now...but that's what i hear people call brettomyces...

but sourdough smell and lactic acid go hand in hand, are you using RO water for your calculator? how much did you add to the sparge water?

 

[LazyIPA]

For this batch I used bottled crystal geyser spring water and used the profile from their website to adjust the Brunwater profile to a “NEIPA” style with Chloride to Sulfate of about 3:1. I did mess up the sparge water at first by adding too much lactic acid, but I discovered it before the sparge and corrected it with my “very hard” tap water according to my PH meter to get it to around 5.8. My mash was testing out right about 5.23 during (testing hot using a nice Milwaukee PH meter with a sep temp comp probe). I have thought a lot about lactic acid in general though, since that’s super predominant in sourdough starter and something I’m familiar with. So perhaps, it’s just on my “baker’s hands” Lol!

 

[LazyIPA]

Are you thinking the “big C02 Bubbles” are funk related, I.e. lactic acid-ish bacteria contamination? I.e. if the beer is yeasty tasting, are big bubbles a common warning sign? Or if I just let the bottles sit for another two weeks maybe it will all go way?

 

[bracconiere]

I did mess up the sparge water at first by adding too much lactic acid

you can neutriulize the carboxilic acid ...but it'll just be a salt then....it will effect the ph, but the lactic not really fundamentaly changed....

 

[bracconiere]

Are you thinking the “big C02 Bubbles” are funk related, I.e. lactic acid-ish bacteria contamination? I.e. if the beer is yeasty tasting, are big bubbles a common warning sign? Or if I just let the bottles sit for another two weeks maybe it will all go way?

honestly, i'd say to see if it's broken down protien, i'd give it a hard pour to get the glass like 40% full of 'big bubbles' wait for it to thicken up to about 10-15% then gently pour it to the top again and see if you get a cloud on top pour...

edit: if you want this

yeah that's an old photo before i had a better camera, that pour that i hope you can tell has 1.5" layer of thick foam started as a glass half full of big bubbles, and when the bubbles coagulated in the air. i filled it up more, got that irritating thick dense beer foam on top.....

 

[LazyIPA]

That actually reminds me of one of the characteristics of quite a few bottled porters I’ve had in the past that I have never really liked b/c of bigger bubbles (mouth-feel, mostly) but often-times a little bit of an acidic/sour aftertaste also…. Not too dissimilar to what I’m experiencing now, but w/o the yeasty hit at the front of the palate. Come to think of it now, my mash recommendation was at 156...although I’m not experienced enough yet to be able to tell the difference from a taste-test perspective, but I have nothing really to compare it to.

 

[bracconiere]

quite a few bottled porters I’ve had in the past that I have never really liked b/c of bigger bubbles (mouth-feel, mostly) but often-times a little bit of an acidic/sour aftertaste also

burnt/carmelized sugar can taste acidic....
that's why i add charchoalized barley to my dark beers.....

Come to think of it now, my mash recommendation was at 156...although I’m not experienced enough yet to be able to tell the difference from a taste-test perspective,

that's a mouth feel more sorta thing...you'd have to like swirl it around, see if you can become a human hydrometer and tell SG by your mouth senses...

and i'm hoping i'm not wasting your time with my responses....i'm a 'new brewer' too...i've been just getting by with what i make for 17 years, and only been here for the last three. amazing how much i've picked up just lurking in the serious threads....(edit: and i hope some of them are awake in the morning to chime in on this one )

i'm still curious how much lactic acid you added though, i could google the taste threshhold then?

 

[mashpaddled]

You are heading the wrong direction thinking about brett or lactic acid bacteria. Brett doesn't move that fast and LAB are unlikely invaders of hoppy beers.

On the flavor issue you are probably dealing with one of two issues--maybe both:

1. Your water profile was wrong for the style which has a negative effect on the flavor and feel of the beer either due to having too much minerality, too much acid, or a combination of both resulted in extracting a lot of tannins in the sparge.

2. It tastes like yeast because you have a lot of yeast in the bottles and they are kicking up from the bottle into your glass. Most of the yeast used in hazy beers are not great flocculators by design so they add to the hazy appearance. It's tough to bottle these beers and keep them young enough to not oxidize but conditioned enough that they don't taste like yeast starters.

If you have a lot of yeast floating around in the beer then they will act as nucleation points in the glass and drive carbonation out of solution. Instead of a tight dense head you'll get those big bubbles of CO2 escaping solution.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

burnt/carmelized sugar can taste acidic....

Is that why beers with high proportions of crystal malts can taste a little funky while fresh, and often get better with a few weeks maturation?

 

[marc1]

Hi everyone!

I brewed extract kits back in college but recently made the jump to all-grain. I went for "We Like Space" from morebeer, a double Hazy IPA. Mine wound up more like a single b/c I missed my original gravity, so I'm sitting at around 7% rather than 8+.

Fermented with Cellar Science Nectar and fermentation smelled fruity and fantastic throughout! I dry hopped 3 days before bottling. Total time in an SS BrewTech Brew Bucket Fermenter, about 15 days. Final gravity was about 1018 with an original gravity of 1069 or so. The final gravity sample tasted pretty good! I was excited! I "soft crashed" to about 50f by leaving it outside the night before bottling, but when I opened the fermenter the next day, all the dry hop pellets were dissolved, but still floating on top. As I bottled it, I had quite a bit of hop sediment trying to come through and had to clear the bottling wand a few times. Bottled into 22oz bombers with x2 carbonation drops in each.

Has been resting at about 70 degrees for 14 days. I put a few in the fridge and this is what it looks like. Kind of big bubbles, smells awesome, tastes a bit "yeasty" with a hit of yeast up front, followed by fruit and then kind of a funky "tart" finish. Not really getting anything particularly off-putting, but it definitely tastes like "home-grown" rather than commercial, which is less than I was expecting from trying it right out of the fermenter. The yeast flavor is definitely throwing it off.

So my question is, what can I do now?

Leave it longer warm?
Leave it longer cold?
Drink it and "oh well"?

I know most people would say give it another week or two, but I'm worried about oxidation effects everyone worries about with NE style IPAs.

I've seen some people say bottle hazy's for no more than a week before drinking, while others say leave your beer 3-4 weeks before trying. Not really noticing any oxidation yet.

So the questions I have are:

Do the bigger bubbles mean it needs more time at room temp?
Does the yeasty flavor mean it needs more time at room temp/and/or cold-time? There was a pretty solid 1-2mm layer of yeast/trub at the bottom of the bottle.

Thanks!


View attachment 765988

A few thoughts:

If it's carbonated, put them all in the fridge and store them there, it will help with shelf life and can help the flavors clean up. My kegs often taste much better after a week in the fridge.

When you pour from the bottle, are you doing it in one pour, and leaving the last ounce or so in the bottom of the bottle with the settled yeast?

For NEIPAs, an approach becoming common is to soft crash BEFORE dry hopping to drop some yeast, then cold crash after to drop the pellets.

 

[bracconiere]

Is that why beers with high proportions of crystal malts can taste a little funky while fresh, and often get better with a few weeks maturation?

and probably why they say when you make crystal malt to let it breath for a week to mellow before brewing with it...

 

[LazyIPA]

You are heading the wrong direction thinking about brett or lactic acid bacteria. Brett doesn't move that fast and LAB are unlikely invaders of hoppy beers.

On the flavor issue you are probably dealing with one of two issues--maybe both:

1. Your water profile was wrong for the style which has a negative effect on the flavor and feel of the beer either due to having too much minerality, too much acid, or a combination of both resulted in extracting a lot of tannins in the sparge.

2. It tastes like yeast because you have a lot of yeast in the bottles and they are kicking up from the bottle into your glass. Most of the yeast used in hazy beers are not great flocculators by design so they add to the hazy appearance. It's tough to bottle these beers and keep them young enough to not oxidize but conditioned enough that they don't taste like yeast starters.

If you have a lot of yeast floating around in the beer then they will act as nucleation points in the glass and drive carbonation out of solution. Instead of a tight dense head you'll get those big bubbles of CO2 escaping solution.

That's interesting. My water profile wasn't too fancy, again I started with bottled spring water and added 5g of Calcium Chloride and 1.5g of Gypsum. According to Brunwater I was at 120 Ca, 45 Sulfate and 169 Chloride. I used 3.5ml of Lactic Acid in the Mash (5 Gallons) for a Mash PH of 5.26 and 1.4ml in the Sparge (4.9 gallons) for a Sparge PH of 5.5. I did mess up and wound up putting 3.5ml or so into the Sparge water as well and had to dilute it with my filtered tap until it came back up to 5.5 on my PH meter.

#2 makes sense. If it tastes like yeast, it's probably yeast, haha. I'll keep it cold for a few more days and see if some of that settles out a bit. As mentioned, there's already a sizable yeast ring at the bottom of the bottles and I'm trying to keep that in the bottle when pouring.

 

[LazyIPA]

burnt/carmelized sugar can taste acidic....
that's why i add charchoalized barley to my dark beers.....





that's a mouth feel more sorta thing...you'd have to like swirl it around, see if you can become a human hydrometer and tell SG by your mouth senses...

and i'm hoping i'm not wasting your time with my responses....i'm a 'new brewer' too...i've been just getting by with what i make for 17 years, and only been here for the last three. amazing how much i've picked up just lurking in the serious threads....(edit: and i hope some of them are awake in the morning to chime in on this one )

i'm still curious how much lactic acid you added though, i could google the taste threshhold then?

Not wasting time at all--the more the merrier! Should have been about 5-7ml or so of lactic acid that made it into the beer.

 

[bracconiere]

Not wasting time at all--the more the merrier! Should have been about 5-7ml or so of lactic acid that made it into the beer.

this was interesting...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lactic-acid-taste-threshold.172309/

 

[LazyIPA]

this was interesting...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lactic-acid-taste-threshold.172309/

That was one heck of a thread and this is super interesting!

"Brulosophy added 19 ml of 88% Lactic Acid to a 5 gallon batch, and as a consequence they mashed it at pH 4.45, and did so side by side with an identical batch that did not get any added lactic acid, and was mashed at pH 5.30, and in the end a panel of blind taste testers could not distinguish between them."

On a slightly different topic, I saw somewhere that you should serve a Hazy IPA at 45-50 to be able to get the full flavor. I tend to drink my beers right out of the fridge at 37... I'm going to try an experiment tonight and let one sit out of the fridge for 30 minutes or so and then try it!

 

[LazyIPA]

So just a quick update, I cracked another one just now after two days in the fridge and the yeast taste is gone! Opening the cap gave the expected "pffft" sound, which I didn't get yesterday. Bubbles are smaller (but still not quite as small as I'd like) but it's actually pretty good now! Not sure if it's a variation bottle to bottle but the color is already a wee bit darker today, so I'll have to drink this batch quick. It's certainly not perfect but overall I'd say this batch was a (drinkable) success!

 

[bracconiere]

I cracked another one just now after two days in the fridge and the yeast taste is gone!

i think you just got thristy. they say thirst is the best appetizer!