Help changing my stout recipe

[Shaika-Dzari]

Hey everyone,

So a couple of weeks ago, I did a very simple stout:

70% 2 rows
20% flaked barley
10% roasted barley
EKG at 60 minutes and a small amount at 15 minutes for 30 IBU
S-04
Final ABV: 4.5%

My goal is to start from there and work my way to a recipe I like.

The result was not bad at all but there are 2 things I want to change but I'm not sure how:
1. There is some kind of fruity taste at the end.
2. I want some thing more creamy/basic like you have when drinking milk (no milk stout, I don't want to add lactose).

For #1, do you thing it's S-04 fault ? If yes, yeast suggestion ? Or is it because of EKG addition at 15 minutes ?

For #2, I only have simple home brew equipment, so nitro is out of the question. My current idea is to drop a bit the roasted and flaked barley and to add oatmeal. Opinion ?


Thanks!

 

[jrgtr42]

For #2, add some flaked oats into the bill. That will smooth out the mouthfeel.

 

[Velnerj]

What temperature did you ferment the S-04 at? I usually get tart/fruity flavors at higher temps. But can be "clean" at lower temps.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Fermentation was done in my closet and the temperature was between 20C and 22C.
Now that I think about it, maybe higher sometime

For #2, add some flaked oats into the bill. That will smooth out the mouthfeel.

What do you think of :
72% 2 row or Maris Otter
10% flaked barley
10% flaked oat
8% roasted barley

 

[Kickass]

For #2- substitute some of the roasted barley with midnight wheat or a dehusked carafe III. It’ll lend a “softened” roast character.

 

[Kickass]

Are you using roasted barley or roasted malt? Your recipe say barley first then malt further down. They may sound interchangeable, but they contribute different characteristics. In order from soft smooth roastiness to charcoal/ash/burnt roastiness:

Dehusked roasted malts (midnight wheat, carafa III, etc.)

Roasted barley (unmalted)

Roasted malt

Adjusting these with help soften your Stout.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Are you using roasted barley or roasted malt?

Sorry, a mistake (it's fixed). I'm using roasted barley.
I'm kind of fine with the "roasted level". I'm a coffee drinker and roasted barley seem to give similar taste.

 

[Sammy86]

Could always add some brown malt to the grist...will add some nice biscuit, bready flavor without being too roasty.

Gotta make sure its fresh though...if it's old its been my experience that it can be a tad harsh.

 

[tracer bullet]

Fruity is definitely yeast.

If you want less fruity, but maybe a little, consider some of the London / English yeasts. If you want totally ditch it maybe American yeasts i.e. the actual American Ale Wyeast or their California yeast.

If you like dry yeast check out the S-05, I haven't tested it but others claim it to be more clean than the S-04 and people do seem to have issues with S-04. Not making it worse, just not what you are looking for (some love it).

 

[Velnerj]

Fermentation was done in my closet and the temperature was between 20C and 22C.
Now that I think about it, maybe higher sometime

Definitely seems too high for this yeast. It may explain the fruitiness. If you don't have temperature controlled fermentation try US-05 or maybe Nottingham yeast.

 

[jrgtr42]

Fermentation was done in my closet and the temperature was between 20C and 22C.
Now that I think about it, maybe higher sometime



What do you think of :
72% 2 row or Maris Otter
10% flaked barley
10% flaked oat
8% roasted barley

10% Flaked Oats should do nicely, but I would skip the flaked barley and go for some chocolate malt and or Crystal 120 or so. Maybe split between them.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Wow, a lot of advices!

So:

- As I cannot control my temperature, I should use a more neutral yeast. US-05, Nottingham, english ale yeast (WLP005, 007 or 013)
- Some grain bill suggestion: chocolate malt, midnight wheat, carafa III, brown malt
- Flaked Oat is OK

So I guess now I need make choices, try and see if I like it.
So here is a modify recipe:

78% Maris Otter
6% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
5% Roasted Barley
5% Chocolate Malt
WLP005 British Ale Yeast
EKG at 60 minutes for 28 IBU

Reasons:
- I will try the oat first instead of carafa as it is much cheaper here.
- Maris Otter should give me a bit more biscuit/bready than 2 row (I don't think I can have brown malt at local store)
- I love the idea of the Chocolate Malt
- I will overbuild a starter of the WLP005 and use half later to make a bitter



Thanks everyone!

 

[jerrylotto]

Ah, but you CAN control the temperature - at least a little better. Fermentation is exothermic - at least for the first couple of days. Air cooling does not do a good enough job (IMHO) keeping the WORT temperature constant. So make a water bath and submerse the base of your fermentation vessel and then use ice to keep the bath temperature below 20C. WLP005, for example, likes the range of 18C-21C but without a bath you probably hit 4-5 degrees higher at first. Even better yet, use a temp probe in the wort and measure it directly.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Ah, but you CAN control the temperature - at least a little better. Fermentation is exothermic - at least for the first couple of days. Air cooling does not do a good enough job (IMHO) keeping the WORT temperature constant. So make a water bath and submerse the base of your fermentation vessel and then use ice to keep the bath temperature below 20C. WLP005, for example, likes the range of 18C-21C but without a bath you probably hit 4-5 degrees higher at first. Even better yet, use a temp probe in the wort and measure it directly.

It's less a problem now. Where I am, it's winter time. So my closet stay at 18C.
Actually, last summer, I was using a couple frozen water bottle placed around the fermenter and cover with some kind of towel. Not ideal but I live in a small apartment and can't have a lot of equipment I'll reuse them the first couple of days.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'm a huge fan of WY1450 (Denny's Favorite) in stouts and will shout that to anyone who will listen. Smooth and malty results.
I also second the notion of using a dehusked/debittered roasted malt in place of your roasted barley. Carafa III or Midnight Wheat.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

I'm a huge fan of WY1450 (Denny's Favorite) in stouts and will shout that to anyone who will listen. Smooth and malty results.
I also second the notion of using a dehusked/debittered roasted malt in place of your roasted barley. Carafa III or Midnight Wheat.

OK, I don't know this one. I'll have a look. Thanks cactusgarrett!

 

[Miraculix]

What you are after actually sounds like a perfect match with what I have read about lutra. It's a relatively clean fermenting kveik and does not need temperature control. I have not tried it myself but I will do so soon.

I tried oats up to 30% Vs a control batch without and it did not do anything to mouth feel. Wheat, unmalted or malted, did something. And it is also great to stabilise the foam.

So is a 15 minute mashout step at 77c and a short protein rest at 55c before the mashing.

 

[tennesseean_87]

You could mess with mash pH. For a dry stout I usually go for the lower end of the ideal range of 5.3, but other dark beers I usually do 5.5.

I recently used flaked wheat in a stout and it was nice. I think 20% flaked stuff is good, and you can try 10% oats/10% barley or wheat if you want.

Playing with different roasted stuff will help you dial this in. When you use chocolate malt, note the color. Some is as light as 200, some as dark as 500. The last stout I did had 13% total, but it was split between pale chocolate (200), chocolate (400), and roasted barley (500), and I like it. Another poster mentioned brown malt, which is really good in an English porter. I used it in a Pennsylvania porter, too. Its about 70 in color, so much more pale than even the pale chocolate malt. I find chocolate malt to have a slightly smoother, nuttier character than roast barley or black malt. For the lighter roasted malts, think about medium roast coffee instead of dark roast. You can still get a strong flavor if you use enough, like stronger brewed medium roast coffee.

 

[Miraculix]

I once made a 6.5% abv beer with about 10% brown malt and the rest pale malt. It was horribly astringent in a not hop related way. After aging for more than six months it was really lovely. Before that, undrinkable. Maybe there are big differences between the different brown malts on the market.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I once made a 6.5% abv beer with about 10% brown malt and the rest pale malt. It was horribly astringent in a not hop related way. After aging for more than six months it was really lovely. Before that, undrinkable. Maybe there are big differences between the different brown malts on the market.

Jamil's brown porter uses a pound and it's great.

 

[Miraculix]

Jamil's brown porter uses a pound and it's great.

Mine was British brown malt, I think Thomas Fawcett, but cannot promise that it wasn't another British maltster as it has been some time since then.... My guess is that there are huge differences between different brown malts as I have heard everything from "yes, happened to my beer as well" to what you said.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Mine was British brown malt, I think Thomas Fawcett, but cannot promise that it wasn't another British maltster as it has been some time since then.... My guess is that there are huge differences between different brown malts as I have heard everything from "yes, happened to my beer as well" to what you said.

I think that's the one I've used, too. Maybe it's just a taste thing.

 

[couchsending]

Here’s another tip. Guinness is still made at the original brewery by cold steeping the roasted barley and adding the liquid to the end of the boil. I personally would try this before doing anything else. Flaked Barley does just as much for texture as flaked anything else.

You could mash really high.

Use a lower attenuating yeast. Never use So4 if you don’t have temp control. 1450 is a good recommendation. As is Irish Ale yeast for that more authentic character for this beer. The new Verdant IPA yeast is by far the best dry yeast option for this beer. It leaves a sweeter finish to any beer regardless of gravity.

Kviek yeasts are not a good recommendation for low ABV beers, they need more nutrients.

If you don’t want to cold steep the grains you can use dehusked versions like Midnight Wheat or Carafa III Special. You can also add them to the end of the mash before vorlauf.

Make sure your mash pH is correct. A higher pH will “soften” the Beer.

 

[Miraculix]

I brewed lower abv beers with Voss, had no issues, so did others.

 

[Miraculix]

I think that's the one I've used, too. Maybe it's just a taste thing.

I don't think so, it was REALLY unpleasant, far away from personal opinion unpleasant.

I am still wondering if they might have mixed up my brown malt with amber malt though.... One day I will brew with it again, just to see what was wrong with that beer.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Here’s another tip. Guinness is still made at the original brewery by cold steeping the roasted barley and adding the liquid to the end of the boil. I personally would try this before doing anything else.

This is a good idea.
Am I wrong by thinking that the Chocolate Malt need to go in the mash for conversion? Or it is something like caramel where sugar is already converted ?

 

[couchsending]

I brewed lower abv beers with Voss, had no issues, so did others.

With what malts?

Maris Otter, Flaked Barley, Roasted Barley grain Bill is pretty devoid of FAN. Kviek yeast need a bunch. It’s been well documented. Same grist with American 2Row might be fine with some nutrient addition.

 

[Miraculix]

Just regular Pale malt. It works.

But I didn't remove anything from the wort, neither hotbreak nor coldbreak, I biab, so there's probably the missing nutrient.

 

[tracer bullet]

Wondering if @Shaika-Dzari ever tried this again w/ the revised recipe, and how did it go?

I am planning for a stout my next brew and always happy to learn from others.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Wondering if @Shaika-Dzari ever tried this again w/ the revised recipe, and how did it go?

I am planning for a stout my next brew and always happy to learn from others.

Hi tracer bullet. Not yet.
Me and my brother brew together and the last one he vote for a red ale instead. I will probably try it in December.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Hey, I finally brewed it last weekend. The recipe has also changed a bit...
So I went with:

I made my usual 10L batch with:

Maris Otter - 2.2kg - 72%
Pale Chocolate Malt - 300g - 10%
Flaked Barley - 200g - 6%
Flaked Oat - 200g - 6%
Crystal 60 - 100g - 4%
Roasted Barley - 50g - 2%

22g of EKG at 60
13g of EKG at 15
For the yeast, I use Irish Ale yeast from Omega.

OG was 1.064
IBU 35

I made a 1L starter but pitch only 750ml (I kept the rest for something else).
I tasted the wort and ...wow. It's the best wort I ever made! ( only brewing since July )
I can't wait to taste it.

Not sure if it is normal for this yeast but I glad I use a blowup tube! The fermentation was crazy.
4hrs after pitching, I was already seeing some bubble. The morning after, this thing was going crazy with non-stop bubbling. The yeast was clearly having a feast.
48hrs later and it's now nearly calm. I can't really take a gravity reading without opening it so I will wait but I feel most of it has already fermented.

Anyway, tasting in ~3 weeks and I can post another update if you want to know

 

[jerrylotto]

Any problem with temperature spikes? Something that active must be cranking out the watts! Of course, it might be more easily controlled at your scale.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Any problem with temperature spikes? Something that active must be cranking out the watts! Of course, it might be more easily controlled at your scale.

My closet stay at 19C. I don't really have a good way to go lower than that...

 

[cactusgarrett]

The morning after, this thing was going crazy with non-stop bubbling. The yeast was clearly having a feast.
48hrs later and it's now nearly calm. I can't really take a gravity reading without opening it so I will wait but I feel most of it has already fermented.

Starters do amazing things for yeast and a healthy fermentation. Just because the airlock has slowed/stopped bubbling, that doesn't mean fermentation is done. It is more than likely it's still got some ways to go after only 48 hours. Give it more time and only bottle after getting consecutive gravity readings a couple days apart.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Starters do amazing things for yeast and a healthy fermentation. Just because the airlock has slowed/stopped bubbling, that doesn't mean fermentation is done. It is more than likely it's still got some ways to go after only 48 hours. Give it more time and only bottle after getting consecutive gravity readings a couple days apart.

I'm in no rush
I usually wait 2 weeks before bottling.

 

[jerrylotto]

Ah -ambient cooling might work at under a liter but an order of magnitude larger (10 l) you really should be monitoring the wort temperature, not the closet. Stick on thermometers are cheap enough but they aren't terribly accurate. If you have a way to get a probe into the liquid, a digital thermometer is your best bet.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

Yeah, I need to upgrade my game

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah, I need to upgrade my game

An easy problem solver is to put the fermenter into a bigger tub of water. This increases the thermal mass and the temprerature swings will be kept low. I do this sometimes when I ferment with yeasts that don't like the extra 5 degrees that fermentation can provide sometimes.

 

[Beenym88]

Until you have better control of fermentation temperature you won’t really know if you like your recipe or not. Fermentation temperature is extremely important. This recipe does look much better than the first one for my tastes I would use a little more crystal and some Munich.

 

[Shaika-Dzari]

An easy problem solver is to put the fermenter into a bigger tub of water. This increases the thermal mass and the temprerature swings will be kept low. I do this sometimes when I ferment with yeasts that don't like the extra 5 degrees that fermentation can provide sometimes.

You know what ? I was exactly my intention, put my fermenter in a 5g bucket with water and drop a couple of ice cube from time to time to keep it low.
But.... I forgot

Next time! Anyway, I see this recipe as "my work in progress stout". I will brew it again (and again) and adjust thing to fit what I like.