Help! Brewing Failures again and again

[rayg]

Traces of bleach react with the yeast to create phenols and chlorophenols. Some phenols taste like cloves, some taste like band-aids, some taste astringent, some taste like burnt plastic, and some just taste harsh. Which phenols get created depend on the yeast strain and the type of chlorine it's reacting with(chlorine, chloramine, chlorine dioxide etc). While some wild yeasts can create band-aid flavored phenols, that particular flavor is more likely to be a result of chlorine than a wild yeast infection.

Makes sense, but in this case he's using oxyclean, so I think infection
as a cause is more likely. Everyone here seems to think that starsan and
oxyclean are the way to go, but I've always used bleach or the iodo
solutions. But diagnosis is limited when you can't taste the stuff yourself.

Ray

 

[bovineblitz]

Does your tap water have chlorine or chloramine in it?

Mine has chloramines so I have to use campden tablets to brew with it.

 

[BlueSunshine]

Not to spark up another LME vs. DME debate, but I've never had any good experiences with using LME (I've always used cans when I did use it). My beers that I've brewed with late DME additions have turned out much better than any LME beer I've brewed. Alot of good suggestions in this thread, might want to give the DME a chance for the heck of it.

 

[cheesewiz6]

I agree with starting with basic ales, I also made a filter for my tape water. Got a 24 ounce water bottle put small holes in the bottom lined it floss media then filled almost full with with carbon from a pet store. Works great haven't bought bottled water yet.

 

[jpzep4]

-Aging isn't going to do anything positive for your beer unless you
can age at very cold temps. Even then, the hop flavor/aroma will
decrease steadily. Aging an ale for a long time near rt will result in more
attenuation (less body), more chance of oxygen-related staleness
issues, and a large decrease in hop flavor aroma.

Another question to ask is: does your raw beer (before bottling)
taste bad?

Ray

I was under the impression that a high gravity ale needs to age. This brew was coming in around 8%. I realize Sam Smith ages in barrels and all that but they do indeed age this beer from what I read.

And most of the time yes, the beer tastes bad before bottles.

 

[jpzep4]

I agree with starting with basic ales, I also made a filter for my tape water. Got a 24 ounce water bottle put small holes in the bottom lined it floss media then filled almost full with with carbon from a pet store. Works great haven't bought bottled water yet.

Forgive my ignorance, "lined it floss media"?

 

[akthor]

Are you making your own from scratch?

I use the kits and just follow the instructions works perfect everytime. My temp control is a basement nothing fancy just put it down there and forget it. My brew room is my kitchen. My brew pot is the biggest cooking pot we have, I use city water, ours is good, I use the plastic fermentation buckets.

Perhaps try a kit? At least that way you take the recipe,your techniques and ingredients out of the equation.

Use a kit, use bottled water, follow the instructions exactly and if it comes out right then at least you know your equipment, sanitation, are good and you don't have the "house bug" thing.

 

[rayg]

I was under the impression that a high gravity ale needs to age. This brew was coming in around 8%. I realize Sam Smith ages in barrels and all that but they do indeed age this beer from what I read.

And most of the time yes, the beer tastes bad before bottles.

Ok, I don't understand. From your first post I wasn't under the impression
that high gravity brews were what you are making. One of them was a
Kolsch, wasn't it? Making high gravity brews is not a task for the
beginner. One reason you "age" a high gravity brew is to complete
the fermentation, which is pretty slow once 5% alcohol is reached. To
be honest, I think you are biting off more than you chew at this point,
and I would concentrate on trying to make normal gravity beer with
simple ingredients.

Ray

 

[jpzep4]

Ok, I don't understand. From your first post I wasn't under the impression
that high gravity brews were what you are making. One of them was a
Kolsch, wasn't it? Making high gravity brews is not a task for the
beginner. One reason you "age" a high gravity brew is to complete
the fermentation, which is pretty slow once 5% alcohol is reached. To
be honest, I think you are biting off more than you chew at this point,
and I would concentrate on trying to make normal gravity beer with
simple ingredients.

Ray

Ray,

of approx 10 brewing attempts, yes one was a Sam Smith Winter Welcome Ale clone recipe. I am NOT focusing on high gravity brews but I like the commercial version. I don't want to pay $10 for 4 beers though so there's my rationale.

As far as biting off more than I can chew, I understand where you're coming from with that but this beer actually has turned out surprisingly well and has been aging in bottles since May. I followed everything to the letter on fermentation and secondary aging before bottling. It's a bit of anomaly that it doesn't have the same off flavor as the others. I used DME not LME but the water was the same. That's why I asked previously if the higher alcohol content could mask off-flavors.

 

[Killian_77]

I was experiencing this same problem (I think...I read through this post pretty fast). My beer got worse the longer it was in the bottle. I see that you use your dishwasher as part of your bottling process. Take that step out and see if it helps. I figured out that this was the cause of my phenolic tasting beer. Not sure if there was enough residue in the dishwasher or what was causing it to get in the bottles, but that was my problem.
Just a thought. Since I stopped using my dishwasher I have had no problems.

 

[noodledancer77]

I'm on pins and needles. This thread is like a great suspenseful movie. sorry it has to be at your expense jpsep4. BTW, this is a good thread to read for beginners to understand some of the details and important points that ya'll have learned with experience. Thank you for that.

 

[KevinW]

Forgive my ignorance, "lined it floss media"?

It's that stuff that looks like cotton if you've ever seen a home aquarium filter setup!

So if you have your temps under control and you have your sanitization under control to me it seems like it would have to be your water!

I know you are not new so don't take these questions wrong:

Have you qualified your thermometers? (put it in boiling water and get 212°)

Do you use very hot(but not boiling) water with your Oxyclean(free) and rinse it very well?( I usually rinse 3 times or more)

Do you soak your equipment for .5 to 1+ hour for cleaning?(especially your fermenter and any related valves/spigots and hoses) when using Oxyclean Free?

As long as you are pitching and fermenting and low enough temps I just cannot imagine why you are having the issues you have.

Good luck!

 

[jpzep4]

Kevin.

Yes to all. Firmly believe after this thread that it must be water.

Even if my sanitation were suspect (which I do not believe it is) it would still be downright difficult to ruin as much beer as I have ruined. The common thread HAS to be the water. Juan on this thread pointed out that my local water is treated with chlorine and chlorine dioxide ( don't know how Cl Dioxide stacks up as a water troublemaker. it's not mentioned much). Why I didn't think about that when i began brewing I don't know.

Someone asked about campden tablets. I do have them and have used them but looking at it now, I've used them incorrectly. I only treated a small portion of my water and I only used 1/4 of one tablet because it says 1 tablet treats 20 gallons. I didn't figure you should overuse the stuff. That was wrong


Tomorrows the day I get the owner of a HBS to taste 4 past brews. I'm really hoping it's just chlorinated water which can be dealt with easily. I wish I would have thought about it earlier but thank goodness for this board to point out the obvious!

 

[akthor]

I live in Northern Maine so our water here is excellent I can neither taste or smell chlorine in the city water course our water comes from a lake and they don't do much to it.

But when I have gone to other places, Mexico, Buffalo, DC, Baltimore, Virginia, Boston ect. the smell and the taste of the city water is abominable, smells like it was taken from a YMCA pool that hasn't been cleaned in a while.

Buffalo was the worst.

If you have water like that or even 1/2 as bad and are making kool aid with that stuff it's f'ed up let alone beer

 

[bovineblitz]

hm interesting that buffalo water is so terrible, rochester ny water is great

 

[jpzep4]

Alright, got the report from my first trip to the LHBS. For anyone still tuning in, the off flavor he tastes he said is DMS. Certainly not what I was expecting. I brought 5 beers. here's the report:

Sam Smith Winter Welcome clone: too high ferm temp (def. possible), esters, fusel alc. but pretty good. Other than the super sweet aroma and a bit of alc. bite, it is more than drinkable.

Porter: My other one that was pretty good right away. It's gotten worse with time in bottles. He said obvious oxidation. I guess I should have drank them faster

ESB and Belgian Wit (the really bad ones I haven't dumped yet): The diagnosis is DMS. I don't know how or what to do about that. I use an ice bath and a wort chiller. Cool times usually under 20 minutes. I was certain this flavor was chlorophenols from local chlorine treated water. He said absolutely not. That our water around here is good and that flavor was not a water issue. I taste plastic, band-aid spicy crap. Obviously I don't know what DMS tastes like. I recall it described as a cooked vegetable flavor. I definitely have a good rolling boil going, no lid on the pot, and I boil for a min. of 60 min.

My recent Kolsch that exhibited the same off-flavor in the first one I drank... I took two of them up there and the flavor was not present in either one. That one has no flaws he said. I can't explain that one. I know the flavor was in there but the beer was good today. I know the whole thing about patience but the flavor of the ESB and Belgian was in this one. It normally doesn't get better. Gets worse. At this point, I'll take it.
The weird thing though is that this one was the longest to cool because i only used the ice bath. No wort chiller. Maybe wort chiller is a contributor? Doubt it.

He DID NOT taste anything infection related.


Got an IPA kit and some new direction:

I'm doing a partial mash.(suggested on this board as well)
Any extract with be DME. No more LME.
I'm using Wyeast Activator vs. WL, will not have a starter
I'm going to secondary this IPA.
I'll watch hot side oxidation.
Try to cool as quickly as possible. (thought I was)
Strict control of ferm temps.
Top off with local spring water. He was not concerned at all about tap for boil, sparge, or sanitizing. I may campden tab 5 gal anyway.

I did a tally. 9 brews. 5 undrinkable. DMS and high ferm temps the cause? Man that seems like a lot of bad beer from DMS alone. I wish it had been the water. That's easily solved. Wild yeast was another consideration I had. Old/oxidized extract, LME taken from bulk container then shipped cross-country, stressed yeast from shippping. All additional suggestions of bad things going on.

I'm putting a lot of faith in Doug, owner of Just Brew It. Cool guy, just met him today. He runs a store, brews A LOT and seems very knowledgeable. Spent an hour plus with me tasting and teaching. Hoping he's right.

Thoughts on the DMS? any other thoughts or suggestions? For kicks I'll report back after I open my first bottle of mini-mash IPA. I'm expecting the best!

 

[RCCOLA]

Change the yeast to S-05 dry. No worries about underpitching(as you would with the activator with no starter) Boil and cool top off water.

 

[KevinW]

Oooh, yeah DMS can be a beer killer. One thing that may help besides a quick cool down is to boil with the lid off of your kettle. The escaping steam will carry away any potential DMS and if you leave the lid on only leave on about 1/2 to 2/3 and try to not let any of the condesation drip back into the kettle!

I used to keep the lid on my kettle until I got a full boil then took it off or kept it on just enough to keep the boil going!

Well it sounds like you have found your gremlin so here's to some great brews ahead!

 

[HalfPint]

change the yeast to s-05 dry. No worries about underpitching(as you would with the activator with no starter) boil and cool top off water.

+12?

 

[JLem]

Hate to second guess, especially not having tasted the beers, but DMS does not sound like the off flavor you described. Also it sounds like you did what you needed to do to avoid having DMS in your brews. Your process sounds like 1,000s of other's processes and most don't have a problem with DMS. Unless you are using a lot of poorly modified pilsner malt and/or boiling with the lid on, I find it hard to believe you have a DMS problem, especially to the extent that you would need to dump beers. Still sounds like a water or fermentation issue to me. Just my 2 cents.

 

[jpzep4]

but DMS does not sound like the off flavor you described. Also it sounds like you did what you needed to do to avoid having DMS in your brews. Your process sounds like 1,000s of other's processes and most don't have a problem with DMS.... Still sounds like a water or fermentation issue to me. Just my 2 cents.

I realize i'm inexperienced relative to a HBS owner but I do wonder about the DMS diagnosis. From everything I've read, the taste is clearly more similar to a chlorophenol description. i don't do ANYTHING that should contribute to DMS other than a slow cool-down because of the temp of Georgia tap water in the summer. An IC doesn't do a whole lot of good!

on this new partial mash IPA i left my water out overnight to run off any chlorine, meticulously soaked, rinsed and sanitized, topped off with spring water, and i've monitored ferm temps to the extreme ( checking swamp cooler temp 3X daily, average temp 58-62) People recommended using dry yeast but Wyeast came with ingredients so i pitched it. Nice active ferm going on now.

One other weird thing is that the Kolsch that I mentioned previously (my most recent extract batch) has been VERY inconsistent taste-wise. some are very good, no off-flavor but sometimes still plastic burps. others are VERY strong off-flavor, with horrible plastic burps. This I simply cannot explain. Still have a case left so we'll see. it's aged long enough in bottles that it certainly should be good by now so it's not green, i know that much.
I don't know how but I guess this could be a bottling issue.

i will sanitize bottles with starsan and spring water rather than tap water this time.

 

[Ichthy]

OP, did you say above (post 25) that you are pitching at 78-85F?? If so, start cooling the wort to fermentation temperature. Bad things can happen on a hot pitch of yeast. And sorry for all your issues, hang in there!

EDIT: If you have cholarmine in your water, it won't evaporate IIRC. Get some campden tablets to remove the chlorine.

 

[tagz]

Did you use the campden tablets for your boil water?

 

[jpzep4]

OP, did you say above (post 25) that you are pitching at 78-85F?? If so, start cooling the wort to fermentation temperature. Bad things can happen on a hot pitch of yeast. And sorry for all your issues, hang in there!

EDIT: If you have cholarmine in your water, it won't evaporate IIRC. Get some campden tablets to remove the chlorine.

Did not use Campden tabs. No chloramine in the water report. Only Chlorine.

Now you ask yourself, "After all the discussion of water in this thread, why the h$LL didn't you use Campden tabs!?" Keep in mind I was operating under the assumption from HBS owner that water issues were not to blame here.

I probably should have to eliminate the Cl variable completely but I thought I would minimize any additives. No tabs, no yeast nutrient, no whirfloc. Just the basics.

On the pitching temp, I remember Palmer's info saying from 65-90 so early on I pitched in the 80 degree range. Average pitching temp for last few brews around 70 (including this one)

 

[Ichthy]

70F should be okay to pitch, if you are getting the beer cooled down to fermentation temps rather quickly but since you have temp control it would be wisest to just let the wort get to ferm temps, then pitch.

I don't really have much advise for you, but sure hope you get this figured out.

 

[KevinW]

One other weird thing is that the Kolsch that I mentioned previously (my most recent extract batch) has been VERY inconsistent taste-wise. some are very good, no off-flavor but sometimes still plastic burps. others are VERY strong off-flavor, with horrible plastic burps. This I simply cannot explain. Still have a case left so we'll see. it's aged long enough in bottles that it certainly should be good by now so it's not green, i know that much.
I don't know how but I guess this could be a bottling issue.

i will sanitize bottles with starsan and spring water rather than tap water this time.

Hmmm, that sounds like a definite issue!

Sanitizing with starsan +1

Have you tried soaking the bottles in Oxyclean Free before sanitizing? If you have not I recommend it(hot but not boiling followed by a very good rinse)

I soak my bottles for at least 30 mins in hot Oxyclean then scrub, rinse well, and dry. Before I bottle I sanitize w/Iodophor. I did not do this with my first batch and had inconsistent carbonation and tastes, now all my bottles are identical!!

Just throwing it out there, good luck!

 

[jpzep4]

Hmmm, that sounds like a definite issue!

Sanitizing with starsan +1

Have you tried soaking the bottles in Oxyclean Free before sanitizing? If you have not I recommend it(hot but not boiling followed by a very good rinse)

I soak my bottles for at least 30 mins in hot Oxyclean then scrub, rinse well, and dry. Before I bottle I sanitize w/Iodophor. I did not do this with my first batch and had inconsistent carbonation and tastes, now all my bottles are identical!!

Just throwing it out there, good luck!

Thanks Kevin. i should clarify. I meant next bottling I'll use starsan with distilled/spring water INSTEAD of starsan with tap water. when I reread that it looks like I just use tap water to sanitize. When i first clean a used commercial bottle, I soak in Oxiclean, scrub out, rinse. then sanitize with StarSan before filling. After it's been through the oxiclean one time, i don't usually do that again. When empty, I just give the bottle a good hot water rinse and shake to get all the stuff out.

When bottling time comes again, they get a visual inspection and a star-san rinse.

The reason i didn't think it's a bottling issue is because the beer often has off flavor out of the fermenter. But we'll see.