Heater Element Carbon Buildup

[PhilM]

I've got a High Gravity Brewing electric brew in a bag system. Lately, I've noticed that when I brew carbon start to buildup on the electric water heater element. This has been getting to be harder and harder to clean, and lately I've had to start wire brushing the element to get the carbon off. Brewed a batch yesterday, and it's built up to the point that even a 24 hour soak in PBW and a wire brushing isn't shifting it. It's also on the threaded section that's screwed into the locking/seal nut.

I've contacted High Gravity Brewing in the past about this issue, they didn't have any ideas. I use a homemade hop spider to put my hops in, but that's on the side of the pot, well away from the heater element.

Any ideas what's causing such a massive (and worsening) buildup? Are there any other cleaning options other that a wire brush and elbow grease?

 

[stevehaun]

I usually just scrub my elements with a green 3M scrubbie. You could try filling kettle with water until elements are covered, add PBW and turn the elements on. Let it heat up for 15-20 minutes and try scrubbing again.

 

[PhilM]

That worked when the problem first appeared, but now a single batch will put on such a massive layer of carbon that running the element in a PBW solution doesn't work.

What really doesn't make sense to me is why it's getting progressively worse, even though I clean it between every batch. It's getting to the point that cleanup is such a hassle I'm going to have to find another way to brew, and right now I don't have the money to upgrade the the gas-fired three-vessel system I've been planning.

High Gravity has never heard of any issues this bad with their elements, it's possible I'm doing something wrong, but it's to the point where things are hard to diagnose remotely.

 

[IslandLizard]

Are those the all Stainless ones?
Perhaps with the wire brushing the surface gets more rough and scratched, and holds onto deposits more vigorously?

Or there was a naturally non-stick oxide layer on the elements originally that's being removed progressively with each cleaning?

Are the deposits calcium-based from hard water, beer stone, scorched wort, or something else?
Many manufacturers and (re-)sellers simply will not admit to anything unless you really push the issue with proven backup and documented cases.

If you have the problem so have others.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I'm thinking its not carbon but beer stone or some other mineral as mentioned above. Isn't carbon created by heat as a result of scorching? If so, and you were scorching your wort to the heating element, I think your wort would also taste like burning. Like if you burnt cream sauce.

I could be wrong on that one but it makes sense to me.

 

[PhilM]

Haven't noticed any burnt flavors in my beers, and even light brews come in at the expected color so I don't think I'm scorching it. It's possible it's beer stone, I hadn't thought of that.

I do have very hard water. I use Five Star Chemicals 5.2 Mash pH stabilizer with each batch, I've noticed a strong mineral flavor when I don't.

Maybe I should soak the element in a strong batch of BLC and see what happens?

If anyone is interested, here's the heating element I've got:
https://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/Heating-Element-4500-Watt-SS-Twist-lock-Plug-386p3859.htm

Even if my issue is mineral related, what's a good way to avoid this? If it's electro-chemicalish, perhaps something can be used like a sacrificial anode to "collect" the mineral crud instead of the heater?

 

[processhead]

If what you see in element buildup is, in fact, carbon, then it seems that you may be operating at too high a temp or you may have inadequate wort circulation setting during some part of your process.

It seems unlikely that you would be getting anything hot enough to scorch during your mash, but during the boil you typically would be operating at higher temps.

Do you bring your kettle to a boil at a high setting, and then lower your heat setting to just enough to sustain the boil? Or do you leave it set at a high heat setting?

 

[PhilM]

High till it's boiling, then I back it down to about the 50% mark, even lower than High Gravity runs it in their demo video. During the mash I also run wide open during a temp increase, then back down to about 50% for each rest.

 

[z-bob]

If it's proteins complexing with hard water salts, Barkeepers Friend should take it right off (I have to use that whenever I cook beans in a stainless steel pot) If it's anything else, oven cleaner (lye) is your best bet.

If it's too far carbonized, you might just have to scrape it off (carefully!) with a razor.

 

[PhilM]

Update: Soaked the element in a 5:1 mix of water and BLC. Let it sit a few hours, came back to find the water/blc had turned a nice shade of amber. I'm thinking Smokey was on the right track with the beer stone idea. The BLC mixture did a lot to soften the buildup, but about half the element is still solidly gunked.

So, now to figure out how to prevent this…I've got some chemistry background, but not in relation to beer. I'd just try a magnesium water heater anode or something similar, but that would involve drilling a hole in my brew kettle. I'd like to have a little more certainty of success before I attempt that.

Any ideas? Brew kettle is stainless steel, element is stainless steel, through valve is supposed to be stainless steel. In my mind it's either heat or electricity that's causing the buildup. If it's heat, I'm on to a gas fired system ASAP. If it's electrical, there has to be a simple solution.

 

[augiedoggy]

Update: Soaked the element in a 5:1 mix of water and BLC. Let it sit a few hours, came back to find the water/blc had turned a nice shade of amber. I'm thinking Smokey was on the right track with the beer stone idea. The BLC mixture did a lot to soften the buildup, but about half the element is still solidly gunked.

So, now to figure out how to prevent this…I've got some chemistry background, but not in relation to beer. I'd just try a magnesium water heater anode or something similar, but that would involve drilling a hole in my brew kettle. I'd like to have a little more certainty of success before I attempt that.

Any ideas? Brew kettle is stainless steel, element is stainless steel, through valve is supposed to be stainless steel. In my mind it's either heat or electricity that's causing the buildup. If it's heat, I'm on to a gas fired system ASAP. If it's electrical, there has to be a simple solution.

something sounds amiss. Is the buildup black or brown? If black its from scorching for sure... if brown its heavy carmelization. If white its mineral buildup... in any case you should not has any black buildup and a minor amount of carmelization if any on the element if your not getting the proper amount of recirculation around the element... I just dealt with scorching on the far end of my rims element for the same reasons. plus your not using an ultra low watt density element which makes scorching more likely to happen with higher gravity liquids.

 

[PhilM]

The buildup is dark, enough to call it black. However, when I clean it the runoff water is amber/brown, not black and sooty.

High Gravity says they use ultra-low density elements...but something definitely isn't right.

As for recirculation, I follow High Gravity's instruction to the letter. Here's their demo video:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD8jkMEH0_I[/ame]

I do everything exactly how they do, with the exception of the hop spider. However, I keep the spider on the side of the kettle, so it does not hang over the element. I also still use the bag that they provided, so I doubt the mesh is the issue. Also, I've not been doing a "mash out" rest in order to try and run the element as little as possible to try and minimize the buildup I've been getting. I simply just raise the bag and let it drain.

 

[PhilM]

Update #2: Bought some BKF on the way home from work, it worked really well, about 90% of the buildup is gone now, though still with a substantial amount of elbow grease. I've got the element soaking in concentrated PBW, I'm going to let it sit till tomorrow. Then I plan on rinsing it well, and trying the BKF again.

As I understand it, after using BKF or a similar acidic cleaner, the stainless steel oxidizes. Supposedly, this oxidation layer is what help stainless steel resist staining/buildup. Maybe that will help prevent this from happening again?

 

[BBBF]

I started using Acid #5 every few batches to clean my keggle and it removed all the crap accumulating on my elements. I never thought they would shine like that again.

 

[processhead]

I started using Acid #5 every few batches to clean my keggle and it removed all the crap accumulating on my elements. I never thought they would shine like that again.

Can you tell me a little more about Acid #5? What is it?

 

[brew_ny]

Can you tell me a little more about Acid #5? What is it?

here is a link



http://www.thehoppybrewer.com/shop/...-acid-cleaner-5-1-gallon-case-of-4-gallons-3/

 

[BBBF]

Can you tell me a little more about Acid #5? What is it?

It's an acid cleaner from Five Star Chemicals. Depending on how diluted of a solution you make, it can be used as a acid rinse, acid cleaner or to passivate stainless. I think it has some of the same ingredients as BKF, but it it is industrial strength, so be careful. I use gloves and break out my old chem lab, eye protection.

Acid #6 might also get the job done, but I haven't tried it.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/breweries/craft-brewers/products/

 

[augiedoggy]

The element you linked was a low watt not ultra low watt... they are linger and usually wavy to have more surface area and still fit in a smaller diameter tank...
I use the same size 4500w element in my hlt . Its low watt density. About 48" of element vs 60+ on an ultra low watt element. Which I use in my bk

 

[PhilM]

So, one of these would be an upgrade:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YU2YS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

For ~$30, I just might buy that and see what happens. I'm guessing the third wire from the plug is just ground? Only two screws on the element, I'm guessing the ground wire needs to be connected to ground anywhere on the element.

 

[augiedoggy]

Correct and yes... you can either run the ground to the element or ground it to the pot.

 

[PhilM]

Yeah, I'll probably just drill and tap the surround for a screw like High Gravity did with the original element.

Hopefully this solves the buildup issue, if all goes well I'll test things out on another batch this weekend and report back here with results. I'll clean the new element with BKF first to make sure that the steel has been passivated (passivatized?) as well.

 

[PhilM]

Quick question:

Got the new element in...and it's longer than the description on amazon says. As a result, it just touches the opposite side of my brew kettle when it's installed. How much clearance is needed around the heater element? I was thinking about using washers to back it off a bit, depending on how much space needs to separate the element and the side of the kettle.

It's being installed with a weldless fitting, fyi.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I'm no expert here but if it were me, I'd do as you figured and back out the element with some washers. I think as long as the element isn't physically touching the other side of your pot, you're probably ok.

 

[PhilM]

Well it looks like I'm SOL. If I add enough washers, there isn't enough exposed thread to bite the weld less fitting.

I suppose a welded fitting would work, but even if I found someone to take care of that there wouldn't be enough clearance to screw the element in.

Hopefully Amazon takes returns on an opened element. (which I doubt they do&#8230

Or I can spring for the $150 to buy the next size up Bayou Classic pot and strainer basket and install everything into that. That's probably what I'll end up having to do, because going back to the old element means scorching. Again.

Not happy, but whatever. Probably won't be brewing tomorrow. Oh well.

 

[z-bob]

How about installing two 2500 watt elements in parallel?

This one is very short: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060HN8KQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[PhilM]

Doing the math on current draw for two of those elements made me realize something…The original element is 5500 watts. No wonder it was scorching, that's a lot of watts for so small an element. Wonder if High Gravity just made a whoops and sent me a 5500 watt element by mistake?

The new element calculates to be a 4,430 watt element, using 240V. So I'm pretty sure of my math...

Here are the numbers:
Measured resistance of the original element: 10 ohms
Assuming 240 volts, I=24
P=VI
P=(240)(24)
P=5,760 watts

 

[z-bob]

The resistance goes up when it's hot. I don't know how much it goes up, since it's water-cooled.

Now I'm curious; I have a 5500W and a 2500W element and a DVM...

I have one of these in a 5 gallon bucket for a HLT: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006IX8AK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 It hasn't scorched my water yet Don't know how it well it would work with wort.

 

[PhilM]

True, but it shouldn't go up THAT much. Also, the numbers check out for the new, known-wattage element.

Amazon will take the 4500W element back. I'll probably limp along with the current setup to use up the two pack of yeast I've got, and re-engineer a fix in the meantime. I doubt I'll have much time to brew in the next month or so anyway, between the holidays, work, and school.

I've got the High Gravity 3-vessel controller, I opted for that since I planned on expanding my BIAB system into a 3-vessel one. I've also got a business trip coming up that should provide enough overtime pay to fund the upgrade. We'll see. Could use the current kettle as a HLT, the 5500W won't hurt the water. Then get a low density 5500W for the "new" boil kettle. Maybe even a boil coil.

 

[augiedoggy]

its fine touching the sidewall that the opposite end just as its fine that it touches at the base end... Its been mentioned many times that the elements often touch the sidewalls of rims tubes and such with no ill effects...
fyi yo can actually bend them a bit too as long as you dont overdo it.... jusy do a search on it.

 

[PhilM]

It's not just touching the sidewall a little...more like it's a good 1/8" too long. A quarter inch is a large amount for a measurement to be off by.

I'm just going to use the original element, and not run the power past 75% when I brew this afternoon. Hopefully that will prevent charring the burner.