Heady Topper Results From Ward Labs

[agrazela]

The mash Ca level is eventually diluted approximately 1/2 after sparging with untreated water. I believe it is further reduced by precipitation with malt phosphates (desired reaction to drive down RA) and possibly with oxalate (beer stone).

The amount of SO42- found in the finished beer is higher than can be accounted for by the gypsum addition alone, thus the malt must be contributing a few hundred ppm.

Finally, it is clear that malt adds a lot of chloride. It drives me nuts when I see the hand-wringing of some people expecting to find taste/mouthfeel differences changing chloride from 100 to 150ppm in their brewing liquor (see the myriad NE IPA threads).

Hmm, yes, OK, I am thinking like a no-sparge full-volume BIAB'er. I can see what you're saying about adding 1/2 your final volume as untreated sparge water, and that therefore there must be some sulfate being picked up, but also still some calcium being lost (but not nearly as much as I was thinking).

Trying to decide whether that changes what I want to do with my planned hellacious gypsum addition...

(I also agree it sounds like trying to finely control chloride would be like herding cats)

 

[carvetop]

Hmm, yes, OK, I am thinking like a no-sparge full-volume BIAB'er. I can see what you're saying about adding 1/2 your final volume as untreated sparge water, and that therefore there must be some sulfate being picked up, but also still some calcium being lost (but not nearly as much as I was thinking).

Trying to decide whether that changes what I want to do with my planned hellacious gypsum addition...

(I also agree it sounds like trying to finely control chloride would be like herding cats)

Go for the ridiculous gypsum addition. I recall an interview with Greg Noonan (Kimmich's mentor) in which he said they add so much gypsum to their brewing liquor that solubility becomes a concern.

 

[stonebrewer]

Please approximately define "ridiculous gypsum addition" in regards to a 5 or 10 gallon batch...I am curious. Understand starting water chemistry would affect this number so assume RO water. Also curious as to why Kimmich uses plaster of paris instead of gypsum, as plaster of paris reverts to gypsum when added to water. PoP is made by heating gypsum and releasing water molecules as steam. So is plaster cheaper or more readily available or something? TIA for any replies!

 

[carvetop]

Please approximately define "ridiculous gypsum addition" in regards to a 5 or 10 gallon batch...I am curious. Understand starting water chemistry would affect this number so assume RO water. Also curious as to why Kimmich uses plaster of paris instead of gypsum, as plaster of paris reverts to gypsum when added to water. PoP is made by heating gypsum and releasing water molecules as steam. So is plaster cheaper or more readily available or something? TIA for any replies!

If we're going by the screenshot of the Alchemist's brew sheet (several pages back in this thread), the math indicates about 3.5g/gallon of brewing liquor. I treat the full volume of liquor used (not just mash liquor) so for an average 5 to 6 gallon batch, I'm using around 9.5 gallons which would work out to about 33g of gypsum. This is WAY more than I've ever used.

 

[WBCo]

BUMP, curious if anyone ever went nuts with a gypsum addition for any of their beers, Heady clone or otherwise

 

[laserghost]

yeah, what happened?

 

[Oldsock]

BYO just posted my article comparing the mineral levels in my water and finished IPA. Also included the numbers from Heady Topper here (with OP's permission) and Alter Ego.

 

[laserghost]

Great read. Curious about the pH of those finished IPAs. So what are your Bru'n water profiles these days for various IPAs?

 

[Oldsock]

Great read. Curious about the pH of those finished IPAs. So what are your Bru'n water profiles these days for various IPAs?

I've been happiest with 150 PPM (target) across the board for calcium, chloride, and sulfate. For example. Most of my IPAs are finishing right around 4.5-4.6. Alter Ego was 4.5.

 

[mabrungard]

I've been happiest with 150 PPM (target) across the board for calcium, chloride, and sulfate.

Interesting! This is sort of a cross between the heavily chloride-dependent NEIPA water and the typical IPA or PA water. That roughly equates to 1 g/gal gypsum and 0.9 g/gal calcium chloride (anhydrous).

While I still prefer the dryness imparted by the 300 ppm SO4 pale ale profile, I've made IPA's and PA's in Michael's range and found them to be reasonably drying.

 

[couchsending]

Would love to know if someone has ever sent in a Pliny?

You can find a brew log of Pliny online that has every last detail including mineral additions and PH throughout the brewing process.

They add more CaCl to Pliny than CaSo4 and they reserve a large chunk of it until the last 10 minutes of the boil.

Santa Rosa’s water report is easy to find online. It’s rather high in alkalinity and it looks like RR adds a ton of acid to adjust it. Plugging numbers into Bru’n water I would think It’s phosphoric not lactic but could be wrong. Not sure if the acid amount on the sheet is just in the mash or is split into mash/sparge.

 

[Braufessor]

You can find a brew log of Pliny online that has every last detail including mineral additions and PH throughout the brewing process.


Santa Rosa’s water report is easy to find online. It’s rather high in alkalinity and it looks like RR adds a ton of acid to adjust it. Plugging numbers into Bru’n water I would think It’s phosphoric not lactic but could be wrong. Not sure if the acid amount on the sheet is just in the mash or is split into mash/sparge.

Do you have links to these?

 

[JF_HBrews]

I've been happiest with 150 PPM (target) across the board for calcium, chloride, and sulfate. For example. Most of my IPAs are finishing right around 4.5-4.6. Alter Ego was 4.5.

Another question on an older post - water adjustments in "For Example" were only to the mash water. do most people making NEIPA's adjust both mash and sparge water? I have been.

 

[couchsending]

I would think the same process would apply to any beer regardless of style. Better question would be if you're adding minerals to sparge water or adding those amounts to the end of the boil and simply adjusting sparge to a specific PH with acid.

 

[Braufessor]

I would think the same process would apply to any beer regardless of style. Better question would be if you're adding minerals to sparge water or adding those amounts to the end of the boil and simply adjusting sparge to a specific PH with acid.

When brewing IPA's (with lots of mineral additions) I add to both mash and sparge water. When brewing dark beers (where the dark grains are already pushing pH down anyway) I add to both mash and sparge.

However, if I am brewing a pilsner, blonde, kolsch or other light beers that call for low amounts of minerals and where pH can be an issue - I take all the minerals and put them in the mash. This helps keep pH down while adding less acid. It also puts more minerals in the mash which can kick up the calcium in the mash which I have felt helps with clarity.

** I am using 100% RO water in these lighter beers.

 

[couchsending]

@Braufessor

Have you ever sent any of your beers in to be tested? I haven’t gotten around to it yet but need to.

I’m aware of quite a few professional breweries that add a decent amount of their calcium additions in the boil. I would assume not only for a specific Ph adjustment but also to make sure they’re more likely to carry over into the fermenting wort.

 

[Oldsock]

Another question on an older post - water adjustments in "For Example" were only to the mash water. do most people making NEIPA's adjust both mash and sparge water? I have been.

My standard IPA process is to add all of the salts to the mash (I have reasonably high carbonate even with a partial dilution with distilled) so the calcium is beneficial, along with a little acid, to get my mash pH to target. Then I sparge with distilled water, as it won't resist the pH drop making tannin extraction less likely. When I quote water profiles it is for the combination of mash and sparge water plus any kettle additions.

 

[aaronm13]

Getting all my information and planning an ingredients order to brew my take on this beer. Going with bobsbrews later recipe. I know it wont be identical but should be a really good beer none the less. I'm fairly new to water treatment, only started doing it in the new year but have my head around Bru'n Water I think. The 750ppm of hardness scares me and from what I've read, that's the finished beer. I started messing around with differnt profile settings in Bru'n water and namely the Burton one. It has 275ppm for Calcium and 610ppm for Sulfate. For me in a 5 gallon batch I'd have to add

Gypsum - 15.9g in mash water and 18.5g in sparge water
Epsom salt - 5.3g mash and 6.2g sparge

Along with some other minor salt aditions this gets me to a pH of 5.17

I'm really not comfortable with adding all that gypsum so I tried the Pale Ale profile which to me seems safer, so what do you guys think

Calcium - 140ppm
Mag - 18ppm
Sodium - 25ppm
Sulfate - 300ppm
Chloride - 55ppm
Bic - 110ppm

To achieve the Calcium and Sulfate level and a pH of 5.2 I need 9.2g in mash and 10.7 in sparge and Epsom salts of 0.9g in mash and 1.0 in sparge. Other minor aditions as well as some lactic acid is needed. To me these levels look a little safer. Do you guys think this profile will get me in the ball park?

 

[mabrungard]

What is the intent of the Bobsbrews recipe? If its intended to be a regular IPA, then the pale ale water could be fine for it. But if the intent is NEIPA, then a much lower sulfate content should be employed.

 

[couchsending]

Heady is about as far from what people call NEIPA nowadays as you can get in my opinion. If you want to make something similar to Alchemist beers you need lots of Gypsum.

Also why do you list bicarbonate? You’re not going to be adding any chalk are you? Adding chalk and acid kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[aaronm13]

Martin, the bobsbrew recipe is a clone of Heady Topper, is it an IPA or NEIPA? I can't answer that as I've never tried it. As I said I'm still learning about water treatment from using your amazing piece of work which I why I looked for advice here. As it's such an expensive beer to brew I'm not confident enough to go with one water profile over another so looking for so help here.

Sorry about listing bicarbonate. It's just one of the categories. I don't pay attention to it and definitely don't add chalk.

From what I've researched the 750ppm of hardness is the finished beer. If I shoot for the 750ppm in the mash and sparge water is seems like a lot of gypsum so want to double check before I brew a chalky, undrinkable beer. It that's what is required so be it. The pale ale profile seems safer, will it be Heady topper? Probably not.

 

[cheesebach]

Getting all my information and planning an ingredients order to brew my take on this beer. Going with bobsbrews later recipe. I know it wont be identical but should be a really good beer none the less. I'm fairly new to water treatment, only started doing it in the new year but have my head around Bru'n Water I think. The 750ppm of hardness scares me and from what I've read, that's the finished beer. I started messing around with differnt profile settings in Bru'n water and namely the Burton one. It has 275ppm for Calcium and 610ppm for Sulfate. For me in a 5 gallon batch I'd have to add

Gypsum - 15.9g in mash water and 18.5g in sparge water
Epsom salt - 5.3g mash and 6.2g sparge

Along with some other minor salt aditions this gets me to a pH of 5.17

I'm really not comfortable with adding all that gypsum so I tried the Pale Ale profile which to me seems safer, so what do you guys think

Calcium - 140ppm
Mag - 18ppm
Sodium - 25ppm
Sulfate - 300ppm
Chloride - 55ppm
Bic - 110ppm

To achieve the Calcium and Sulfate level and a pH of 5.2 I need 9.2g in mash and 10.7 in sparge and Epsom salts of 0.9g in mash and 1.0 in sparge. Other minor aditions as well as some lactic acid is needed. To me these levels look a little safer. Do you guys think this profile will get me in the ball park?

I recommend reading the BYO article @Oldsock shared above - it has some great information. I think there's some room for interpretation of the data, given that the SG and malt bill is not the same in the measured homebrew beer as in Heady, but to me, it looks like 200pmm SO4, 120ppm Cl is around what you'd want to target in your brewing water for a Heady clone.

 

[aaronm13]

I recommend reading the BYO article @Oldsock shared above - it has some great information. I think there's some room for interpretation of the data, given that the SG and malt bill is not the same in the measured homebrew beer as in Heady, but to me, it looks like 200pmm SO4, 120ppm Cl is around what you'd want to target in your brewing water for a Heady clone.

Thanks cheesebach. I'll read that article and see what I can take from it. Just going on what you said the figure I posted of 140ppm for Cl is close but my SO4 level is a lot higher at 300ppm so it's I good job I checked this before brewing.

Edit: just checked the link posted by oldsock and it's gone. Don't suppose you have another link for it.

 

[cheesebach]

Thanks cheesebach. I'll read that article and see what I can take from it. Just going on what you said the figure I posted of 140ppm for Cl is close but my SO4 level is a lot higher at 300ppm so it's I good job I checked this before brewing.

Edit: just checked the link posted by oldsock and it's gone. Don't suppose you have another link for it.

Try this one (think you can sign up for a free trial subscription if needed):
https://byo.com/article/advanced-brewingdr/

 

[aaronm13]

Try this one (think you can sign up for a free trial subscription if needed):
https://byo.com/article/advanced-brewingdr/

Excellent, I'll sign up for the trial. Thanks so much for your help.

 

[beervoid]

Any updates here? Have people tried very high chloride ppms?

The link seems to be a dead end im wondering why? Was some trade secrets unlocked? Haha

With all the scientific equipment out there one would think there should be a way to calculate mineral additions from the malts somehow?
Is there any resource on this?

 

[IslandLizard]

Any updates here? Have people tried very high chloride ppms?

The link seems to be a dead end im wondering why? Was some trade secrets unlocked? Haha

With all the scientific equipment out there one would think there should be a way to calculate mineral additions from the malts somehow?
Is there any resource on this?

The link is not dead, it leads to the BYO article, but you need to be a BYO subscriber to access it.

You can measure mineral contributions from the malts alright. There maybe analysis data of them available too. But those amounts are fairly low and nowhere near typical NEIPA levels.

Instead of adding all the minerals to the mash, which may create mash problems at higher levels, a brewer may add them to the kettle, fermentor, or even serving kegs or a combination of them instead. Each will have different effects as they influence the process at different times. You could add measured amounts of minerals to a glass to taste what difference they make. Then calculate back how much to add to a keg or batch.

 

[couchsending]

The link is not dead, it leads to the BYO article, but you need to be a BYO subscriber to access it.

You can measure mineral contributions from the malts alright. There maybe analysis data of them available too. But those amounts are fairly low and nowhere near typical NEIPA levels.

Instead of adding all the minerals to the mash, which may create mash problems at higher levels, a brewer may add them to the kettle, fermentor, or even serving kegs or a combination of them instead. Each will have different effects as they influence the process at different times. You could add measured amounts of minerals to a glass to taste what difference they make. Then calculate back how much to add to a keg or batch.

What's Typical NEIPA levels?

Ballast Point did a study in 2016 or 2017, testing base malts from Canada, US, UK, Germany,
as well as malted wheat from Canada to see what ions the malt would contribute. Results
are as follows:

All mashes conducted with DI water.

10* Plato wort

S04
- Anywhere from 50-100 ppm
- Content actually decreases throughout fermentation due to yeast metabolizing it to synthesize
amino acids.

Cl
- Close to 200 ppm
- Their trials found that numbers increased through fermentation. Thoughts are that hops
contribute CL as well??

Ca
- 25 ppm
- Decreases during the mash due to interaction with phosphates and PH drop. Remains steady
after the mash and through fermentation.

Mg
- 70 ppm
- Remains constant through fermentation

Na
- From 20-40 ppm. Remains steady throughout fermentation


Variation in ions between malts can vary based on the water each maltster uses.

 

[IslandLizard]

That's really good information. ^

I never knew those malt ion levels were that crazy high! Why are we so worried about our water?
And that's only with 10° Plato (1.040)! Many of us don't call it "beer" until it's around 13.5° Plato (1.055). So that's 30% more.

I noticed the anions / cations don't equalize. Over half (135 ppm) of cations are in limbo here.

 

[mabrungard]

I never knew those malt ion levels were that crazy high! Why are we so worried about our water?

To perform the analysis on that water, the lab does an actual digestion of the wort to liberate the ionic content. All that ionic content that is reported above is not available to your taste buds...its locked in the various molecules of the wort components. The yeast do consume and utilize some of that ionic content when they are metabolizing, but some ionic content remains bound.

The ionic content of your water still matters with respect to the drinker's flavor and perceptions.