Heady Topper Results From Ward Labs

[aaronm13]

Martin, the bobsbrew recipe is a clone of Heady Topper, is it an IPA or NEIPA? I can't answer that as I've never tried it. As I said I'm still learning about water treatment from using your amazing piece of work which I why I looked for advice here. As it's such an expensive beer to brew I'm not confident enough to go with one water profile over another so looking for so help here.

Sorry about listing bicarbonate. It's just one of the categories. I don't pay attention to it and definitely don't add chalk.

From what I've researched the 750ppm of hardness is the finished beer. If I shoot for the 750ppm in the mash and sparge water is seems like a lot of gypsum so want to double check before I brew a chalky, undrinkable beer. It that's what is required so be it. The pale ale profile seems safer, will it be Heady topper? Probably not.

 

[cheesebach]

Getting all my information and planning an ingredients order to brew my take on this beer. Going with bobsbrews later recipe. I know it wont be identical but should be a really good beer none the less. I'm fairly new to water treatment, only started doing it in the new year but have my head around Bru'n Water I think. The 750ppm of hardness scares me and from what I've read, that's the finished beer. I started messing around with differnt profile settings in Bru'n water and namely the Burton one. It has 275ppm for Calcium and 610ppm for Sulfate. For me in a 5 gallon batch I'd have to add

Gypsum - 15.9g in mash water and 18.5g in sparge water
Epsom salt - 5.3g mash and 6.2g sparge

Along with some other minor salt aditions this gets me to a pH of 5.17

I'm really not comfortable with adding all that gypsum so I tried the Pale Ale profile which to me seems safer, so what do you guys think

Calcium - 140ppm
Mag - 18ppm
Sodium - 25ppm
Sulfate - 300ppm
Chloride - 55ppm
Bic - 110ppm

To achieve the Calcium and Sulfate level and a pH of 5.2 I need 9.2g in mash and 10.7 in sparge and Epsom salts of 0.9g in mash and 1.0 in sparge. Other minor aditions as well as some lactic acid is needed. To me these levels look a little safer. Do you guys think this profile will get me in the ball park?

I recommend reading the BYO article @Oldsock shared above - it has some great information. I think there's some room for interpretation of the data, given that the SG and malt bill is not the same in the measured homebrew beer as in Heady, but to me, it looks like 200pmm SO4, 120ppm Cl is around what you'd want to target in your brewing water for a Heady clone.

 

[aaronm13]

I recommend reading the BYO article @Oldsock shared above - it has some great information. I think there's some room for interpretation of the data, given that the SG and malt bill is not the same in the measured homebrew beer as in Heady, but to me, it looks like 200pmm SO4, 120ppm Cl is around what you'd want to target in your brewing water for a Heady clone.

Thanks cheesebach. I'll read that article and see what I can take from it. Just going on what you said the figure I posted of 140ppm for Cl is close but my SO4 level is a lot higher at 300ppm so it's I good job I checked this before brewing.

Edit: just checked the link posted by oldsock and it's gone. Don't suppose you have another link for it.

 

[cheesebach]

Thanks cheesebach. I'll read that article and see what I can take from it. Just going on what you said the figure I posted of 140ppm for Cl is close but my SO4 level is a lot higher at 300ppm so it's I good job I checked this before brewing.

Edit: just checked the link posted by oldsock and it's gone. Don't suppose you have another link for it.

Try this one (think you can sign up for a free trial subscription if needed):
https://byo.com/article/advanced-brewingdr/

 

[aaronm13]

Try this one (think you can sign up for a free trial subscription if needed):
https://byo.com/article/advanced-brewingdr/

Excellent, I'll sign up for the trial. Thanks so much for your help.

 

[beervoid]

Any updates here? Have people tried very high chloride ppms?

The link seems to be a dead end im wondering why? Was some trade secrets unlocked? Haha

With all the scientific equipment out there one would think there should be a way to calculate mineral additions from the malts somehow?
Is there any resource on this?

 

[IslandLizard]

Any updates here? Have people tried very high chloride ppms?

The link seems to be a dead end im wondering why? Was some trade secrets unlocked? Haha

With all the scientific equipment out there one would think there should be a way to calculate mineral additions from the malts somehow?
Is there any resource on this?

The link is not dead, it leads to the BYO article, but you need to be a BYO subscriber to access it.

You can measure mineral contributions from the malts alright. There maybe analysis data of them available too. But those amounts are fairly low and nowhere near typical NEIPA levels.

Instead of adding all the minerals to the mash, which may create mash problems at higher levels, a brewer may add them to the kettle, fermentor, or even serving kegs or a combination of them instead. Each will have different effects as they influence the process at different times. You could add measured amounts of minerals to a glass to taste what difference they make. Then calculate back how much to add to a keg or batch.

 

[couchsending]

The link is not dead, it leads to the BYO article, but you need to be a BYO subscriber to access it.

You can measure mineral contributions from the malts alright. There maybe analysis data of them available too. But those amounts are fairly low and nowhere near typical NEIPA levels.

Instead of adding all the minerals to the mash, which may create mash problems at higher levels, a brewer may add them to the kettle, fermentor, or even serving kegs or a combination of them instead. Each will have different effects as they influence the process at different times. You could add measured amounts of minerals to a glass to taste what difference they make. Then calculate back how much to add to a keg or batch.

What's Typical NEIPA levels?

Ballast Point did a study in 2016 or 2017, testing base malts from Canada, US, UK, Germany,
as well as malted wheat from Canada to see what ions the malt would contribute. Results
are as follows:

All mashes conducted with DI water.

10* Plato wort

S04
- Anywhere from 50-100 ppm
- Content actually decreases throughout fermentation due to yeast metabolizing it to synthesize
amino acids.

Cl
- Close to 200 ppm
- Their trials found that numbers increased through fermentation. Thoughts are that hops
contribute CL as well??

Ca
- 25 ppm
- Decreases during the mash due to interaction with phosphates and PH drop. Remains steady
after the mash and through fermentation.

Mg
- 70 ppm
- Remains constant through fermentation

Na
- From 20-40 ppm. Remains steady throughout fermentation


Variation in ions between malts can vary based on the water each maltster uses.

 

[IslandLizard]

That's really good information. ^

I never knew those malt ion levels were that crazy high! Why are we so worried about our water?
And that's only with 10° Plato (1.040)! Many of us don't call it "beer" until it's around 13.5° Plato (1.055). So that's 30% more.

I noticed the anions / cations don't equalize. Over half (135 ppm) of cations are in limbo here.

 

[mabrungard]

I never knew those malt ion levels were that crazy high! Why are we so worried about our water?

To perform the analysis on that water, the lab does an actual digestion of the wort to liberate the ionic content. All that ionic content that is reported above is not available to your taste buds...its locked in the various molecules of the wort components. The yeast do consume and utilize some of that ionic content when they are metabolizing, but some ionic content remains bound.

The ionic content of your water still matters with respect to the drinker's flavor and perceptions.

 

[beervoid]

What's Typical NEIPA levels?

Ballast Point did a study in 2016 or 2017, testing base malts from Canada, US, UK, Germany,
as well as malted wheat from Canada to see what ions the malt would contribute. Results
are as follows:

All mashes conducted with DI water.

10* Plato wort

S04
- Anywhere from 50-100 ppm
- Content actually decreases throughout fermentation due to yeast metabolizing it to synthesize
amino acids.

Cl
- Close to 200 ppm
- Their trials found that numbers increased through fermentation. Thoughts are that hops
contribute CL as well??

Ca
- 25 ppm
- Decreases during the mash due to interaction with phosphates and PH drop. Remains steady
after the mash and through fermentation.

Mg
- 70 ppm
- Remains constant through fermentation

Na
- From 20-40 ppm. Remains steady throughout fermentation


Variation in ions between malts can vary based on the water each maltster uses.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing that.
It seems that unless alot of ions can be filtered by the mash, that most people are already quiet in the ballpark then aiming for ppm of in between 100-200ppm of either chloride or sulfate when it concerns neipa styles.

 

[kaz4121]

Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for around 100 ppm calcium, 150 ppm sulfate, 150 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 30 - 50 ppm calcium, 350 - 400 ppm sulfate, 300 - 400 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.

This was a really great read and thanks for sharing this. Very interesting stuff!

But just to make one correction, the numbers you are stating are what we'd be looking for in the FINISHED beer, not our starting water profile built from distilled or reverse osmosis. The point of the article is how the numbers change from what we start with to what we end with. They make a clear recommendation/ball park suggestion towards the end of the article for starting numbers that should end up in the desired range.

 

[HopsAreGood]

If you really want to dig deeper into this you can. If we take the one example that is given (a pretty standard NEIPA in terms of grains, hops, yeast) that we have lab analysis for...we get the following results for the starting water and the finished water.

Calcium: 36.2 % decrease
Magnesium: 3175% increase
Sodium: 321% increase
Sulfate: 353% increase
Chloride: 170% increase

They give us the lab results for the finished beer in a can of treehouse Julius:

Calcium: 64 ppm
Magnesium: 185 ppm
Sodium: 32 ppm
Sulfate: 474 ppm
Chloride: 299 ppm

So if we used the above percentages and reverse engineer them, we'd end up with the STARTING water to target for Julius: (Assuming these percentages remained true)

Calcium: 100ppm (36.2% decrease) 63.8
Magnesium: 6ppm (3175% increase) 190.5
Sodium: 10ppm (321% increase) 32.1
Sulfate: 135ppm (353% increase) 476.5
Chloride: 175ppm (170% increase) 297.5

These numbers will vary based on the Malt, hops, and yeast contributions but it's definitely a great starting point if you're trying to emulate the water profile of Julius.

 

[kaz4121]

If you really want to dig deeper into this you can. If we take the one example that is given (a pretty standard NEIPA in terms of grains, hops, yeast) that we have lab analysis for...we get the following results for the starting water and the finished water.

Calcium: 36.2 % decrease
Magnesium: 3175% increase
Sodium: 321% increase
Sulfate: 353% increase
Chloride: 170% increase

They give us the lab results for the finished beer in a can of treehouse Julius:

Calcium: 64 ppm
Magnesium: 185 ppm
Sodium: 32 ppm
Sulfate: 474 ppm
Chloride: 299 ppm

So if we used the above percentages and reverse engineer them, we'd end up with the STARTING water to target for Julius: (Assuming these percentages remained true)

Calcium: 100ppm (36.2% decrease) 63.8
Magnesium: 6ppm (3175% increase) 190.5
Sodium: 10ppm (321% increase) 32.1
Sulfate: 135ppm (353% increase) 476.5
Chloride: 175ppm (170% increase) 297.5

These numbers will vary based on the Malt, hops, and yeast contributions but it's definitely a great starting point if you're trying to emulate the water profile of Julius.

Yep. I accidentally copied the wrong sentence over. Updated with the 100/150/150 ish targets

 

[kaz4121]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I followed up the mineral analysis with beverage analytics of Tree House Julius here: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/beverage-analytics-of-tree-house-julius/

Analysis Method Results Units

Color ASBC Beer 10-A 10.8 SRM

pH ASBC Beer 9 4.60 –

Turbidity ASBC Beer 27-B 1821 NTU

Protein Discrete Analyzer 8.1 g/L

ABV ASBC Beer 4 7.10 % v/v

Density ASBC Beer 4 1.01346 g/mL

Specific Gravity ASBC Beer 4 1.01454 –

Apparent Extract ASBC Beer 4 3.72 % w/w

Real Extract ASBC Beer 4 6.18 % w/w

Attenuation ASBC Beer 4 64.7 %

CO2 ASBC Beer 4 4.6 g/L

DO ASBC Beer 4 0.004 mg/L

Bitterness ASBC Beer 23 121 IBU