Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[kal]

blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.

+1000

This is something that's often missed. One piece of info is taken from the pro brewer but it's lost in translation when converting to homebrew batch sizes.

Hop addition times are a classic example. When a pro brew goes 'flame out' on a 50 bbl batch there's so much thermal mass that the boil keeps going for quite some time. So adding hops at flameout in a 50 bbl batch will not yield the same results when adding hops at flameout in a 5 gallon batch. Their 'flameout' hop may be more like a 20 min addition at homebrew levels.

We loose a lot of information by trying to pick apart a pro brewer's process. You can't ask things as single questions like "how long do you dry hop for?" without knowing the 20 other variables that go into that. For example, there's been no mention of CO2 infusing or stirring/recirculation. How long he dry hops for is irrelevant unless you can see exactly HOW he dry hops. If you recirc/stir or inject CO2 (or something else), you'll get different/faster results.

Kal

 

[Trillium]

For example, there's been no mention of CO2 infusing or stirring/recirculation. How long he dry hops for is irrelevant unless you can see exactly HOW he dry hops. If you recirc/stir or inject CO2 (or something else), you'll get different/faster results.

That has already been mentioned. During the 4 day dry hop The Alchemist rouses the yeast by injecting CO2 into the bottom of the conical fermenter.

 

[brewski09]

Maybe, maybe not, but it's a good starting point. The "Can You Brew it" clone episodes followed the recipes from the breweries exactly and they got exact results.



I would dry hop with 1 oz per gallon mainly due to not having ingredients that are as fresh as the Alchemist can get.

They also talk about not being able to achieve the same results with the same techniques and modifying things as needed.

 

[kal]

Ok - true, but the problem we're seeing is that this information is lost in subsequent questions/posts. We see people asking "how long do I dry hop?" who's answer needs to include all the caveats/extra info.

Knowing how many days to dry hop is meaningless unless you know that you need to also rouse with CO2 (how often?) at what temp, and so forth.

I'm simply stating/agreeing with the previous poster that looking at, or asking for a single piece of info doesn't pain the whole picture. The info needs to be kept together for it to be meaningful.

Happy brewing!

Kal

 

[ultravista]

Interesting. That's how I've been doing my dry hopping for a while. Near freezing, under pressure and occasionally pumping co2 in the down stem. I did that last part by accident once and figured it wasn't a bad idea

Do you get hazy/cloudy beer when dry hopping cold? My recent PTE clone was dry hopped cold and is hazy as hell. This is the first beer in my brewing history that is hazy and the only one that was dry hopped at serving temperature.

 

[ultravista]

This is something that's often missed. One piece of info is taken from the pro brewer but it's lost in translation when converting to homebrew batch sizes....

I kept my questions simple to prompt a response vs. a long/heavy set of questions which may have been ignored.

It is not lost on me that his process is different than mine. Knowing his process however is a good step in the right direction.

 

[geoffey]

Do you get hazy/cloudy beer when dry hopping cold? My recent PTE clone was dry hopped cold and is hazy as hell. This is the first beer in my brewing history that is hazy and the only one that was dry hopped at serving temperature.

Heady of course is a very hazy beer. I always attributed that to Conan not being very flocculant. But maybe it has as much, or more, to do with a cold dry hop? It would be a fun side by side test...

 

[ultravista]

Every photo of HT I have seen is cloudy, almost Hefe cloudy.

My oddball Pliny clone is just as cloudy and it's not hop particles. Nothing settles after the pour. It is not a detractor either, just something not expected.

 

[dstar26t]

I fermented this years homegrown hop IPA (5 lbs wet hops in whirlpool for 12 gal batch) with 2nd gen GigaYeast Conan and it was surprisingly clear at one month. No dry hopping though, but no kettle/cellar finings either.

 

[carvetop]

Conan actually flocs fairly well and John says as much in the oft-mentioned video. He attributes most of the haze to hop-derived compounds.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Do you get hazy/cloudy beer when dry hopping cold? My recent PTE clone was dry hopped cold and is hazy as hell. This is the first beer in my brewing history that is hazy and the only one that was dry hopped at serving temperature.

all of my beer is hazy. I don't really care tbh. Clarity is at the bottom of my desire list. I never attributed it to dry hopping cold, but it could be

 

[TheHairyHop]

Conan actually flocs fairly well and John says as much in the oft-mentioned video. He attributes most of the haze to hop-derived compounds.

agreed. whenever I make a starter with conan, it's crystal clear even without cold crashing. which would make since, because there are no hops in my starters. perhaps the yeast like to cling to the hop particles, thereby enhancing the aroma by staying in solution?

 

[MadHomebrewer]

agreed. whenever I make a starter with conan, it's crystal clear even without cold crashing. which would make since, because there are no hops in my starters. perhaps the yeast like to cling to the hop particles, thereby enhancing the aroma by staying in solution?

I believe John in the chop and brew talks about it depends on how you treat Conan to get it to drop out. Specifically he mentioned Conan getting its name from how it acts in a CONical.

 

[ultravista]

I thought Conan is derived from the story of young yeasties seeking vengeance for the death of their parents at the hands of Alcohol.

 

[Carmichael23]

So the real question for those of you that have brewed this current recipe. where are the photos, tasting notes, thee FINAL product. Let us read the feed back with all of your changes and what should be tried next!

 

[gotbags-10]

So the real question for those of you that have brewed this current recipe. where are the photos, tasting notes, thee FINAL product. Let us read the feed back with all of your changes and what should be tried next!

Well no one really knows. The two recipes in this thread make a fine IPA even with all the tweaks but it's deff no Heady. It's anyone's guess at this point. I honestly don't know if it will ever get there. The alchemist obviously has some techniques that we don't know about and maybe even if we did may not be feasible on the homebrew level.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Your all silly.

 

[roncruiser]

So the real question for those of you that have brewed this current recipe. where are the photos, tasting notes, thee FINAL product. Let us read the feed back with all of your changes and what should be tried next!

Yeah, the recipes make real good IPA's but nowhere close to being Heady Topper. I have two batches dry hopping right now. I suspect they'll be very good based on post ferment tastings but nothing like Heady Topper.

The more we know about Kimmich's dry hopping process and hop schedule, the more we'll be able to translate it over to something for the homebrewer. Some call it blindly following. I'd like to call it gathering information. More data more better.

Based on my limited experience, I'm blindly following a recipe. Hoping it's Heady Topper. I'm far from an expert.

This thread needs an infusion of upper level homebrewing experts to get on the correct path again.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Yeah, the recipes make real good IPA's but nowhere close to being Heady Topper. I have two batches dry hopping right now. I suspect they'll be very good based on post ferment tastings but nothing like Heady Topper.

The more we know about Kimmich's dry hopping process and hop schedule, the more we'll be able to translate it over to something for the homebrewer. Some call it blindly following. I'd like to call it gathering information. More data more better.

Agreed. I just wish that I could pin point the hops used. I had my first one a few weeks ago and was surprised by the more savory notes. I usually don't like it in an IPA, but it was well balanced

 

[Braufessor]

Agreed. I just wish that I could pin point the hops used.

Agreed - without a MUCH better idea of the hops actually used and their proportions, I think it is all kind of guess work and a shot in the dark. Very good IPA..... not Heady at all in any of my attempts.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Agreed - without a MUCH better idea of the hops actually used and their proportions, I think it is all kind of guess work and a shot in the dark. Very good IPA..... not Heady at all in any of my attempts.

I personally think that the "secret sauce" is the combinations of techniques used, but the mother sauce is the hop combo. They really are the first step. The lack of availability makes this very hard to pick apart and experiment with

 

[rideincircles]

I ordered all my ingredients for my batch from farmhouse so I will see if I can brew my version next week (LHBS did not have the malts in stock). I plan on splitting a 10 gallon batch into 2 batches and will probably go with Bobbrews hop schedule for the first one, then change up the hop structure on the 2nd one. I may make the 2nd one more fruity, but will decide on that as it gets closer. I have lots of simcoe, citra, centennial, apollo, comet, mosaic, ctz, el dorado, cascade, chinook, and ahtanum to choose from.

Still figuring out my water plan before getting there. I have not added anything other than gypsum to brewing, and am debating on tap water or half tap/RO. Will start plugging stuff into the calculator to see where I wind up. I still have not tried Heady, so no clue how it will compare.

I may dry hop one cold also to see how they differ.

 

[rideincircles]

I lucked out over the weekend and came across a can of Heady on Friday at a local beer store (beer guy had a case delivered to Texas, uncertain exactly how and I mentioned I am brewing a clone and was gifted a can in return for some homebrew which will be a 6-pack plus some of the clone when it's ready.) Now I am prepared for what I am getting into. Dank is the going theme with Heady for certain. It did not seem as cloudy as I was expecting, and I was told it was a week old, but can't confirm.

My ingredients arrive tonight and I will be looking more into the water chemistry and how I plan to build this one up. I started a small starter for cultivating Heady yeast from the can, but since I have not done that much, I probably shouldn't have drank it from the can. Will see if it turns out, it is just 150ml of 1.020 liquid. If it is contaminated, I will just use the Gigayeast instead. On that note, my pale ale tastes like Peaches with all the fruity hops I used in it. I have taken fruityness about as far I can go in a pale ale and need to turn up the dank in my next few brews. I approve of Conan so far.

 

[rideincircles]

I lucked out over the weekend and came across a can of Heady on Friday at a local beer store (beer guy had a case delivered to Texas, uncertain exactly how and I mentioned I am brewing a clone and was gifted a can in return for some homebrew which will be a 6-pack plus some of the clone when it's ready.) Now I am prepared for what I am getting into. Dank is the going theme with Heady for certain. It did not seem as cloudy as I was expecting, and I was told it was a week old, but can't confirm.

My ingredients arrive tonight and I will be looking more into the water chemistry and how I plan to build this one up. I started a small starter for cultivating Heady yeast from the can, but since I have not done that much, I probably shouldn't have drank it from the can. Will see if it turns out okay, it is just 150ml of 1.020 liquid. If it is contaminated, I will just use the Gigayeast instead. On that note, my pale ale tastes like Peaches with all the fruity hops I used in it (20 minute extract pale with 4 hops and 30 minute hop stand, started at 62 for 3 days, had to use ferment chamber for a bock so let it hit 68 for a few days in the closet, and crept all the way up to 76 or so near the 2 week mark and dryhopped with 6 hops in primary and then cold crashed at 50 for 2 days). I have taken fruityness about as far I can go in a pale ale and need to turn up the dank in my next few brews. I approve of Conan so far.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I lucked out over the weekend and came across a can of Heady on Friday at a local beer store (beer guy had a case delivered to Texas, uncertain exactly how and I mentioned I am brewing a clone and was gifted a can in return for some homebrew which will be a 6-pack plus some of the clone when it's ready.) Now I am prepared for what I am getting into. Dank is the going theme with Heady for certain. It did not seem as cloudy as I was expecting, and I was told it was a week old, but can't confirm.

My ingredients arrive tonight and I will be looking more into the water chemistry and how I plan to build this one up. I started a small starter for cultivating Heady yeast from the can, but since I have not done that much, I probably shouldn't have drank it from the can. Will see if it turns out, it is just 150ml of 1.020 liquid. If it is contaminated, I will just use the Gigayeast instead. On that note, my pale ale tastes like Peaches with all the fruity hops I used in it. I have taken fruityness about as far I can go in a pale ale and need to turn up the dank in my next few brews. I approve of Conan so far.

what did you do to the pale to make it so peachy?

 

[Braufessor]

I started a small starter for cultivating Heady yeast from the can, but since I have not done that much, I probably shouldn't have drank it from the can. Will see if it turns out okay,

If you drank the whole beer from the can, and then at the end, poured the last bit into a flask...... I would say there is a 100% chance your starter is significantly infected.

In the future, definitely want to sanitize the can in star san before opening. Pour off 80-90% of the beer in a glass. Then swirl up the dregs in the bottom of bottle or can and then pour it into an already sanitized beaker that contains your sanitary starter wort.

Then, drink beer from glass

 

[sweetcell]

If you drank the whole beer from the can, and then at the end, poured the last bit into a flask...... I would say there is a 100% chance your starter is significantly infected.

from wikipedia: "Oral bacteria include streptococci, lactobacilli, staphylococci, corynebacteria, and various anaerobes in particular bacteroides."

our mouths are filthy (even when we keep our stronger opinions to ourselves ).

 

[rideincircles]

That was a big oops on my part. Trying to drink heady the proper way out of a can along with salvaging the yeast is not compatible. I have Gigayeast to hold me over, but will still see if turns out okay since the starter is already going. May just observe then dump it. I understand the concerns and recently had my first infection from knocking a bung off for a few days. Not taking any chances for ruining 6-12 gallons.

My pale ale definitely pulled the peach flavor from the yeast, but used Eldorado, citra, mosaic, comet and a few other hops to get the fruity flavors. I think I added ahtanum, simcoe, motueka, and cascade to the dry hop. Need to double check later. Mostly fruity hops. Expect that even bigger for my fruity Heady coming up, but will still add some dank qualities.

 

[Braufessor]

That was a big oops on my part. Trying to drink heady the proper way out of a can along with salvaging the yeast is not compatible. I have Gigayeast to hold me over, but will still see if turns out okay since the starter is already going. May just observe then dump it. I understand the concerns and recently had my first infection from knocking a bung off for a few days. Not taking any chances for ruining 6-12 gallons.

No worries on using the gigayeast....... I get 4-12 cans of Heady every couple months, and have made many cultures. They are not any better/worse than using a commercial version like Gigayeast. I tend to culture it up more as a novelty anymore as the Gigayeast is way faster and easier...... and results in the same beer from my experience.

 

[kevink]

I used The Yeast Bay's version of Conan for my Heady attempt. The starter smelled like pure peach juice one day, but for some reason the beer had no peach notes at all.

 

[reddskinnfan]

My recipe (use search) is as close as it gets. Good luck!

 

[brettwasbtd]

My recipe (use search) is as close as it gets. Good luck!

Really? This thread is many posts long and spans years and you want us to search for your recipe...maybe post a link cause the only one I found doesn't look like heady

 

[roncruiser]

My recipe (use search) is as close as it gets. Good luck!

Really? This thread is many posts long and spans years and you want us to search for your recipe...maybe post a link cause the only one I found doesn't look like heady

I'm sure your version is very good and probably close, but there would have to be a consensus to say it's the closest one.

 

[roncruiser]

Here is mine, fresh out the fermentor. Tastes like dank grapefruit, without the dry hop.

Dry hop will be:

3 oz Simcoe
1.5 oz Centennial
1.5 oz Chinook
1.0 oz Columbus
1.0 oz Comet

Recipe was:

8 oz - Rice Hulls
23 lb - Optic Malt
3 lb - Flaked Wheat
1 lb - CaraRed
1 lb - Corn Sugar

8 g - Gypsum

20 ml - Apollo HopShot @ 60m (boil)
3 oz - Simcoe @ 40m (steep)
1.5 oz - Citra @ 40m (steep)
1.5 oz - Mosaic @ 40m (steep)
1.0 oz - Chinook @ 40m (steep)
1.0 oz - Summit @ 40m (steep)

Note: All steep hops added at flameout, then pot covered and naturally cooled for 40m before running through chiller.

3L starter - Vermont IPA (GigaYeast)

OG @ 1.072
FG @ 1.010

Oh, and if anyone is interested, here was my water profile:

75 ppm - Calcium
10 ppm - Magnesium
24 ppm - Sodium
113 ppm - Sulfate
44 ppm - Chloride
0 ppm - Bicarbonate

My pH numbers:

Mash pH - 5.4
Sparge pH - 5.5

And my final IBU/Color/ABV:

Calculated IBU - 140
SRM - 7
Measured ABV - 8.2%

reddskinnfan, what would you change about it? How many time have you brewed it?

I give this recipe kudos simply for posting the water profile. Looks like some good stuff. I wouldn't mind giving this recipe a try given more information on how you'd improve on it.

Tasting notes?
Improvements?
Pre-boil volume?
Volume into primary fermentation for the recipe above?
Dry hop schedule?
Is the water profile, above, before adding in the 8 grams of gypusm?

 

[reddskinnfan]

reddskinnfan, what would you change about it? How many time have you brewed it?

I give this recipe kudos simply for posting the water profile. Looks like some good stuff. I wouldn't mind giving this recipe a try given some more information on how he'd improve it.

Tasting notes?
Improvements?
Pre-boil volume?
Volume into primary fermentation for the recipe above?
Dry hop schedule?
Is the water profile, above, before adding in the 8 grams of gypusm?

Tasting - Piney grapefruit with some peach notes.

Improvements - splitting flameout for a little more aroma kick. One right at flameout and another 30 mins in. Get sulfate up to about 200-250ppm.

Volumes, I think. Will verify by BS file when home - Pre-boil would have been right at 14g. Post-boil 11.5g. Volume into fermenter 10.5.

Dry hop was half at beginning and half at day 4. Total 7 days.

I think water profile was with gypsum, split between mash and sparge, but can check.

 

[reddskinnfan]

By the way, the only way to build consensus is for others to try the recipe. Clearly the one out there hasn't been cloned, as folks have been pointing out. I had the pleasure of trying heady, with mine, right after each other. The only big difference I saw was perceived bitterness, which I attribute to a little bit low on Sulfate.

 

[reddskinnfan]

Really? This thread is many posts long and spans years and you want us to search for your recipe...maybe post a link cause the only one I found doesn't look like heady

It took me one sec to search for the recipe using search this thread tool. Secondly, I read a ton of the info in this thread myself, and info from other sites before building my recipe.

Do yourself a favor and spend some time learning (reading), and then brewing, before passing judgement on what Heady "looks like." Pretty sure the Alchemist is the only one who knows the real recipe...

 

[roncruiser]

By the way, the only way to build consensus is for others to try the recipe. Clearly the one out there hasn't been cloned, as folks have been pointing out. I had the pleasure of trying heady, with mine, right after each other. The only big difference I saw was perceived bitterness, which I attribute to a little bit low on Sulfate.

Yes, I'll give your recipe a try. That's some good stuff there. Especially, since you did a side-by-side. I'm gonna try it as soon as I have some free time.

Gonna pick your brain a little bit more before my attempt. Thanks!

 

[brettwasbtd]

It took me one sec to search for the recipe using search this thread tool. Secondly, I read a ton of the info in this thread myself, and info from other sites before building my recipe.

Do yourself a favor and spend some time learning (reading), and then brewing, before passing judgement on what Heady "looks like." Pretty sure the Alchemist is the only one who knows the real recipe...

Also,

@roncruiser thanks for posting the recipe. I'm on mobile and what I found was not the above...hence the request for the link. Anyways sorry if I came across as being rude, but your post came across very arrogant and demeaning too. This thread is for everyone to get as close to Heady as possible and it would have been nice if you had just taken the two seconds to paste the info in this thread

 

[reddskinnfan]

@roncruiser thanks for posting the recipe. I'm on mobile and what I found was not the above...hence the request for the link. Anyways sorry if I came across as being rude, but your post came across very arrogant and demeaning too. This thread is for everyone to get as close to Heady as possible and it would have been nice if you had just taken the two seconds to paste the info in this thread

Just like you, I was on mobile during that, and most of my, post(s). That's why I said search.