Head retention issue

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TANSTAAFB

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I brewed a saison, recipe below, and split the 12 gallon batch 3 ways. 1 fermented with WLP644 Saccharomyces Bruxellensis Trois, one with WLP590 French Saison, and one with US-05 as a clean control to get a better idea of what flavors are yeast derived and what is coming from the grist and hops. I get a big beautiful thick white fluffy head that dissipates fairly quickly, leaving nice lacing on the glass and just a very thin head. If I swirl the glass it reforms and dissipates again. So what do I need to do to get the head to stay? Check out the grain bill, I included a ton of oats and wheat that should result in a stable head! Any advice is appreciated.

Water carbon filtered and treated with 1 Campden tablet.
1tsp Calcium chloride

14# 2-row (Colorado Malting Co)
2# white wheat (CMC)
2# Golden naked oats
3# flaked oats
1# biscuit (CMC)
.5# aromatic
.75# acid malt

14g Warrior FWH
28g Celeia whirlpool 30 minutes
42g Nelon Sauvin whirlpool
28g Centennial whirlpool

BIAB mashed at 150°F
MVIMG_20180201_192043.jpg
 
I've had head retention problems every time I use oats. That's 4 oatmeal stouts and a pale ale with a pound of flaked oats. I'd point my finger in that direction.
 
I have used oats quite a bit and now can't remember if having them in the recipe correlated to head problems...sounds like an experiment! I thought oats were supposed to contribute to a nice fluffy head that stuck around.
 
I thought oats were supposed to contribute to a nice fluffy head that stuck around.

Flaked barley perhaps, but not oats to my knowledge.

"...fats and detergents tend to destabilize the bubbles and cause the foam to collapse. This is why adjuncts that are high in fat including oats and eclectic brewing spices with high oil contents such as coffee beans tend to decrease foam."


Source: BYO Magazine

https://byo.com/article/fabulous-foam/
 
Huh, that makes sense and is exactly what I'm seeing...nice big head that collapses but leaves great lacing.
 
@Denny I listened to the oats episode this morning and got a lot of good info. I know Drew experimented more with oats (what's his HBT handle?) but I'm wondering if Golden Naked oats or oat malt operate differently than flaked or rolled oats. I now know that oats can contribute to head collapse from the fats and I put a metric f@&kton (that's an official unit of measurement [emoji16]) in this recipe, but Drew said he hasn't had foam stability issues from oats. Where is the magic ratio that contributes nice smoothness and body without negatively affecting head stability?

https://play.google.com/music/m/Dkn...isode_4_The_Mighty_Oat_-_Experimental_Brewing
 
Oats usually provide an oily mouthfeel and body, but they are kinda head negative in higher amounts. Flaked barley works much better for head retention and smoothness. I usually use up to 10% flaked oats in recipes and try to put some flaked wheat/barley as well.
 
@Denny I listened to the oats episode this morning and got a lot of good info. I know Drew experimented more with oats (what's his HBT handle?) but I'm wondering if Golden Naked oats or oat malt operate differently than flaked or rolled oats. I now know that oats can contribute to head collapse from the fats and I put a metric f@&kton (that's an official unit of measurement [emoji16]) in this recipe, but Drew said he hasn't had foam stability issues from oats. Where is the magic ratio that contributes nice smoothness and body without negatively affecting head stability?

https://play.google.com/music/m/Dkn...isode_4_The_Mighty_Oat_-_Experimental_Brewing

Wish I had an answer for ya, but I don't. Shot Drew an email at [email protected]
 
Every time I see a post about a nice thick head that collapses, the 1st thing that comes to mind is glassware. Especially if said glass came out of a dishwasher, and doubly especially if there is a 'sheeting agent' used. Triple rinse that glass, maybe even rinse it out with dilute vinegar then triple rinse. Then try and see what your beer's head does. Good luck!
 
Every time I see a post about a nice thick head that collapses, the 1st thing that comes to mind is glassware. Especially if said glass came out of a dishwasher, and doubly especially if there is a 'sheeting agent' used. Triple rinse that glass, maybe even rinse it out with dilute vinegar then triple rinse. Then try and see what your beer's head does. Good luck!
Glassware was hand washed without detergent, rinsed with very hot water, and spritzed with StarSan before pouring
 
The link is now gone, but years back BYO ran an article by Chris Colby that outlined fermentaion caused problems with foam, along with tests to diagnose your problem.
 
Are you mashing longer than the standard 60’? Do you do a mash out? I recently saw an exbeeriment where the longer mash resulted in head retention issues, I think due to protein issues. Similarly, a mash-out might help improve head retention by “locking in” reactions, or so they say.
 
On this beer I actually did a 45 minute mash and cold pour over sparge. I haven't mashed out since switching to BIAB. It was a longer than expected boil to deal with additional volume and low gravity.
 
Are you mashing longer than the standard 60’? Do you do a mash out? I recently saw an exbeeriment where the longer mash resulted in head retention issues, I think due to protein issues. Similarly, a mash-out might help improve head retention by “locking in” reactions, or so they say.

If you no sparge or batch sparge, you get to a boil so quickly that it's faster than doing a mash out.
 
Here's the 644 version (I ran the beer sitting in the lines out) right after pour. Clean and sanitized glass, did not take a sip yet
IMG_20180206_192535.jpg


Maybe 15-20 seconds later
IMG_20180206_192606.jpg
IMG_20180206_192621.jpg


Less than a minute after pour
IMG_20180206_192709.jpg


I've decided there are a lot of foam positive properties as evidenced by the lacing but overdid the oats so the head is collapsing. Lesson learned! Still interested in whether there's a difference between the impact of oat malt vs flaked
 
It’s funny because I’ve had this problem on the last few batches I’ve made as well and I don’t use oats. Which is why I’ve tried things like shorter mash times and mash out that I mentioned. I also tried the star-san rinse of my glassware as mentioned by someone else, and replaced my plastics in case it was a minor infection issue. Still no dice. Sorry, didn’t mean to hijack.
 
I bottled some of all three beers and took them to a brew club meeting just to get feedback on taste preference. Several people sampled all 3 individually and blended in various ratios. The French alone was the overwhelming favorite! I did have a couple of folks who said a blend of all three tasted more like a classic saison and had more depth but still preferred the French.
 
Saisons are my go to beer.. I love the oats in them, but ever time I get poor lacing. I do think saison are funny cause every comp I've entered everyone has different feedback with the same beer

Editt if you want to fool judged throw some whole peppercorns in. I don't like doing that, but I do like seeing what judges think lol
 
Oats contribute more to mouthfeel than head retention.

Some higher attenuating Saison specific yeasts, can break down some of the dextrins, which decrease head and head retention.

Saisons are by definition very dry, so we mash them very low (146 to 148 is common), leading to higher fermentability and lower body and maltiness, thus decreasing some of the laminar binding and surface tension capabilities for foam creation and retention.

8 to 10 ounces of CaraPils (also marketed as CaraFoam) for a 5 gallon batch will help. You can adjust other malts down a little to compensate if need be.

Saison's by design are generally not big head beers.
 
Sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonates are organic compounds with the formula C12H25C6H4SO3Na. They are colourless salts with useful properties as surfactants. They are usually produced as a mixture of related sulfonates. They are major components of laundry detergent.[2] -Wikipedia

I'd say stop spritzing your glass with StarSan, but if you do, rinse it well afterward.
Sodium dodecyl-whatever is a detergent and could be what's killing your foam.

monk.jpg
 
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I my experience poor head retention is almost always related to yeast husbandry.

I personally think adjuncts are completely unnecessary for good head retention since you can quite easily make a smash with great foam stability.
 
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