HDPE solera

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I've had this thing filled for 2 months now and WOW! The yeast sediment layer in the yeast trap is disappearing slowly! The bugs must be eating away at it. That is my only guess. The "viewing window" of the yeast trap was full of sediment/yeast. Now it is only half full. I need to take some pictures and document it monthly.
 
Very cool photos! I am glad you are taking this on! On the note about Acetobacter, if one were to not use Acetobacter in their culture, wouldn't the extra exposure to oxygen be less of a problem?
 
I bet the sediment reduction you are seeing could be compaction. Also, thanks for the posts, this seems like something similar could take up space in my basement soon.

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dantheman13 said:
Very cool photos! I am glad you are taking this on! On the note about Acetobacter, if one were to not use Acetobacter in their culture, wouldn't the extra exposure to oxygen be less of a problem?
Click to expand...

Correct me if I am wrong but Acetic Acid Bacteria is airborn and can be found pretty much in any environment. Acetobacter, a genus of acetic acid bacteria, has the ability to convert ethanol into acetic acid in the presence of oxygen.

This is why people are worried about the oxygen exposure of the various types of tanks, and is why I went with the sanke keg method in hopes of minimizing the possibility of acetic acid production.

So its my understanding that Acetobacter is still very much a risk in an oxygen rich environment, despite not deliberately inoculating the wort with Acetobacter.
 
He may be thinking that Roeselare has clostridium in it (it does not). As you mentioned Acetobacteria are airborne and all around us, but require the presense of oxygen to produce acetic acid (vinegar). Clostridium can do it anaerobically. The HDPE conicals are rated at 20ppm (barely above a standard barrel and below a small 5 gallon barrel). the MDPE conicals are rated at well over 1000 ppm and are not suitable for sours (they will result in vinegar production).

Roeselare is:

Our blend of lambic cultures produce beer with a complex, earthy profile and a distinctive pie cherry sourness. Aging up to 18 months is required for a full flavor profile and acidity to develop. Specific proportions of a Belgian style ale strain, a sherry strain, two Brettanomyces strains, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture produce the desirable flavor components of these beers as they are brewed in West Flanders. Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components. This blend will produce a very dry beer due to the super-attenuative nature of the mixed cultures.

Origin:
Flocculation: variable
Attenuation: 80%
Temperature Range: 65-85F 18-30C
Alcohol Tolerance: ABV 11%


Styles:
Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin
Fruit Lambic
Gueuze
Straight (Unblended) Lambic


PS - I probably should break this off into it's own thread although blizzard does not seem to have taken offense to my hijack of his 2012 thread. I will be reporting on it year by year to see what happens as you continue to solera in a 60 gallon HDPE conical.
 
No issues here. If anything it makes it easy for me to follow along. Feel free to keep it here or break it off. Whatever suits you is fine with me, just post a link here if you start a new thread.
 
It seems to fit just fine here as the title is spot on to what the experiment is (what happens when you stick $500 of beer into a 60 gallon plastic jug for a few years hoping the end result will rival the Belgian Sours)...
 
Update on the Yeast Trap.

First Super Batman checked for pellicles! None found...



Next I checked up top - not translucent enough to see if a pellicle is forming. The airlocks are good and full still.



And last the yeast trap. The viewing area was FULL of sediment a month ago. Either settled as was mentioned a few posts ago or the Bugs are munching away at it - we shall see month by month.

 
Nice photos, love the yeast trap. I am in the camp that thinks that the cake is being compacted from all that pressure. There really is a ton of pressure on that yeast because of the sheer volume of this batch and the cone shape focusing it all in one spot, over time the yeast probably wont be very healthy.
 
I agree. I am very pleased that the 4700ml yeast trap volume is large enough to ensure the ball valve won't be full of sediment as I try to close it this December. This way I can dump the trub annually. The sizing was a guess based on yeast washing lagers fermented in 6.5 gallon buckets. Too bad the transparent 4" PVC caps and adapters were $250 each or the entire trap would be viewable! Heck the 18" piece you see 4" of was $70.


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FredTheNuke said:
I agree. I am very pleased that the 4700ml yeast trap volume is large enough to ensure the ball valve won't be full of sediment as I try to close it this December. This way I can dump the trub annually. The sizing was a guess based on yeast washing lagers fermented in 6.5 gallon buckets. Too bad the transparent 4" PVC caps and adapters were $250 each or the entire trap would be viewable! Heck the 18" piece you see 4" of was $70.


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Click to expand...


How did you modify the lid to achieve air tightness if I may ask? is there an inner black threaded ring screwed into the top of the HDPE tank?

thanks

TD


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Took off that inner ring and applied a solid bead of FDA approved clear silicone then reinstalled the ring. Then filled the ring's inner threads with FDA approved clear silicone and put the top on. Then sealed around the top with more silicone. Holds pressure like a champ. Now if you want to be able to re-open it many folks have had luck using a 10" pressure cooker gasket.

This one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008UA67/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

You still need to silicone the black ring down to the conical, but the gasket coupled with the screw on lid work well for moderate pressure fermentation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So your tank is sealed up top? How do you add/remove contents or clean if you've apparently permanently sealed the lid. I'm doing a www.plasticconical.com project and this part seems to be the most problematic. I'm waiting on a co2 tank refill to test my tank for airtightness. I actually have a 10" pressure cooker with that same gasket that I think I will try out if my current gasket won't hold.

By the way, what the Nuke part of your handle all about?

TD


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I'm an ex navy Submarine Nuclear Operator. Fun stuff.

Yes - mine is sealed up permanently. I never intend to clean it - it is a 20 year Solera. I have a 30 inch stainless steel 1/2" tube going from the top down 2/3rds into the liquid with a ball valve up top to add 15 gallons each year via a Chugger pump. From the bottom I close an isolation valve and remove the 1.2 gallon yeast trap to remove any trub annually. I then attached a fitting with a 1/2" ball valve and let gravity remove 15 gallons of the beer each year - with the two airlocks removed a vacuum will not occur while this liquid is drained.

If for some reason I need to clean it I will use my homemade keg cleaner. It consists of a Rio 3100 plus 900 gph pump with 3/4" pvc outlet ending in a custom drilled Clean In Place sprayhead cap. That that bad boy run for 30 minutes with PBW and another 30 with StarSan or One Step and it will be clean as a whistle - bacteria dead and all.
 
Since we're all talking "soleras" here is one of the kind you're thinking for the small brewer that I thought was a cool idea. Stolen from craigslist, credit to whoever did this. I think it would be cool to do something like the photos where each can have old yeast dropped out (to an extent, i realize the slope is wrong for proper dumping)

After I move next summer, I plan on doing more of a true solera after I move with sankeys stacked in a pyramid, and one with oak barrels. (A true solera is multiple containers, stacked high that transfer from one to the next.)

I would avoid plastic if possible due to the permeability and/or potential off flavors.

ferm1.jpg


ferm2.jpg


ferm3.jpg
 
I'm just saying its personal preference. I'm not asking or telling anyone else to change. I personally don't care to use it. The "I would" implied it is what I would do.

To each their own, if you're happy with your beer than that's all that matters.
 
Heck if money wasn't an object i would love to spring for a few 100 gallon stainless conicals... 1500 each though.


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Closing in on a year - almost time to remove 15 gallons and add 15 fresh gallons. I'm going to stick with about 30-40% malted wheat but mostly pale 2-row for the base this time. I will post pictures of the yeast trap compaction (it compacted a bit more over the last year), also. I have no plans to add more yeast for this pull or to dump the trub. I'm figuring the trub should be cleared out every 3rd year over the life of this project. Depending on the sourness level I may come back and add some maltodextrin and a bottle or two of East Coast Yeast's Bug County - that should pump of the Roeselare if necessary.
 
I'm glad you bumped this thread Fred. I hadn't seen it before. I've been considering starting a solera but wasn't sure I could make room for a large barrel. I could easily make some room in my ferm closet for a 20-30g plastic conical.
The hardest part would be filling it. The best I can do on my equipment is 10g at a time. So, I'd have to put in a long day of brewing to filler up.

Oh, and Go Navy! Fire Control Mk 86 GFCS. :ban:
 
Be careful selecting the conical - most of the ones on the market are MDPE (Medium Density Polyethylene). They will allow too much oxygen in and you'll end up with acetic acid. They work great for a beer that's in them for a few weeks but not a Solera or even a single batch sour.

The Den Hartog blow molded conicals are HDPE and well documented. The model you are most likely looking for is the IBFD35-SET. Link below to one retailer including easy access to the autocad dimensional drawing. I have a 35 and a 60 - both are excellent pieces of equipment. I would spring for full stainless but then I'd have to add the cost of a divorce lawyer to the equation.....

http://www.plastic-mart.com/product...f39EneR-OFDK_svAJsKdmyKkfrMYcDIPYUaAoGh8P8HAQ
 
Yep, HDPE all the way. Thanks for the link!
And, I'm with you on the divorce lawyer part. I'm going to have to be careful about buying the HDPE on as it is. :D

edit: I just realized PlasticMart is the same one I have bookmarked from searching a water tank for my offroad trailer project. They have a lot of good tanks for lots of projects.
 
Below is a snapshot of the Den Hartog catalog - the only reliable source about these tanks. Reason for my statement - half the websites say the tanks are MDPE and the other half HDPE. The blow molded ones (35 and 60 gallon models with legs) are HDPE. The rest of their inductor tanks (about a dozen sizes and most are commonly used for brewing by folks on this website) are MDPE.

 
As promised below are six pictures of the Year 1 Solera pull. I removed 15 gallons and pumped back in 14.25 (damnit!!! a tad short but oh well - back up to 59.25 gallons out of 60). First pic is the pull (barely room in my packed garage). Second pic is the sample. It was GOOD! Of course a bit weak on the sour as all have noted regarding year one Roeselare pitches - but the smell and taste was very pleasant. If this is "young" sour beer and it is considered "bad" well hot damn I can't wait for seasoned sour beer!!!!! The fresh wort had 2 pounds of maltodextrin in it to amp up the 60 gallons a little bit and an OG of 1.061 mashed at 158F with a grist of 70% 2 row and 30% pilsner (no wheat this time - ran out and didn't make it to the LHBS).

I left one 5 gallon batch as is to age longer. The other 2 each got the equivalent of 30 pounds of Montmorency cherries each (1.5 qts each of King Orchard 68 brix concentrate). I'll let that sit for another 6+ months.

The next few are of the 60 gallon HDPE conical being filled and then of the yeast trap with stuff knocked loose from the fill. Remember the fill line is 1/2" stainless steel tubing extending 28 inches into the conical - so well below any pellicle that may be there. The HDPE is not translucent so I can't see if there is one or not.

I can tell you ONE thing at the year 1 point - there is NO issue with oxygen permeation at this point. The beer is very mildly sour and pleasant. Heck - I may need to add some oxygen if this keeps up in year 2 and 3. We shall see in another 12 months.











 
Awesome Fred! I can't wait to do mine. This isn't a good time for me to spend the money, but it's in my future for sure.
 
FredTheNuke said:
Remember the fill line is 1/2" stainless steel tubing extending 28 inches into the conical - so well below any pellicle that may be there.
Click to expand...

Quick question about that: Is this for adding fresh wort to the Solera? If so, do you think just adding fresh wort on top of the pellicle (if it's there or not) could be detrimental to the beer? Too much oxygen? I just started a Solera and was trying to figure out how I was going to add fresh wort next year. Thanks for any info.

-Mike
 
The tube extends deep into the conical WELL below any pellicle - so the process of draining and refilling never disturbs the pellicle beyond pulling it away from the sides of the conical due to the volume change.

No issues noted with my method yet. It does introduce fresh air into the top of the conical via the airlocks (I removed the center piece to ensure a vacuum did not occur during draining). But this is no different than what occurs during a barrel Solera and should have minimal effect. Besides all that fresh sugar will produce some carbon dioxide to blanket the beer's surface anyway - even with the Sacc all dead (I did not add fresh yeast and the wort was 100% unfermented when added).

Those last 2 decisions are going to spark some comments and concerns as some folks recommend adding fresh Sacc yeast or fermenting and then racking into the Solera. I chose to feed the Solera's bugz with all that sugar! If the beer grows too strong in acidity I will add already fermented beer to the Solera during next year's pull to dilute the sourness and provide less food for the bugz.
 
Extremely interesting thread!
Hope you continue to keep everyone posted!

Greetings from Norway.
 
My LHBS has a 35g den hartog in stock for 399. Pretty comparable to the shipped price from plastic mart.
 
If I were you I would keep looking. I paid 150 for my 35 gallon delivered and 190 for my 60 gallon delivered. Agrimart.net typically has the best deal. Rural king used to.
 
FredTheNuke said:
If I were you I would keep looking. I paid 150 for my 35 gallon delivered and 190 for my 60 gallon delivered. Agrimart.net typically has the best deal. Rural king used to.
Click to expand...


Plastic mart has a great price, but 200+ for freight to a commercial address in Tucson. Kinda ridiculous. At that point, the 400 one locally is ok. I'm not ready yet anyway so I have time to look around.
 
The 35 gallon can be shipped UPS. My 60 gallon was shipped UPS but I'm not sure if they will do that anymore. You should pay no more than $200 with shipping on the 35 gallon.
 
FredTheNuke said:
The 35 gallon can be shipped UPS. My 60 gallon was shipped UPS but I'm not sure if they will do that anymore. You should pay no more than $200 with shipping on the 35 gallon.
Click to expand...


I was thinking that myself. I'll have to call them when ready to order. Their shipping estimator is pretty high.
 
Hey all,

This is not a question specific to HDPE Soleras, but any solera. Do you guys aerate your wort before adding to the solera? Not in the beginning, but after you take some beer out and replace with wort.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Mine is a sour solera and I do not replenish my Sacc yeast at this point so I don't aerate. Now if it is getting too sour I will aerate my wort and pre-ferment in a standard bucket with Sacc yeast and then add to the Solera.
 

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