Hazy Trouble

[matt_m]

I've been struggling in recent years to brew a good hazy. Its quite possible I've never made a good hazy and started noting off-flavors as I learned more. I've made some batches over the last several years that were briefly good but quickly developed off flavors so I led myself to believe this was O2 related in previous batches and became fanatical about preventing oxygen exposure. I also started doing no-boil based on some reading and started using PMB to strip oxygen. Last batch (a year ago) was good but this year was another dumper. I've never done a sensory panel but it had what is probably a strong medicinal phenolic flavor, a flavor I recall in other batches. Hoping someone has advise on where to look next.

Recipe is for a 7 gallon fermenter volume

Grain Bill
15.5lb 2-Row
2lb Flaked Oats
2lb White Wheat Malt
10oz American Honey Malt

RO Water adjusted to the Brewfather Hoppy NEIPA profile

Mash at 152 for an hour

Pasteurize/Whirlpool 30 minutes at 180

70g BRU-1, 50g Mosaic at Whirlpool. OG was 1.062

Yeast was Imperial A38 and was a 3-4 month old pack I re-grew a starter of about 4-6 weeks ago. The starter was fermented out as expected and the yeast was stored refrigerated in a mason jar. It smelled healthy and blowoff activity and movement on a Tilt hydrometer was noted at about 24 hours. I fermented at 68F then ramped to 72F.

I did 2 additions through hop dropper with several CO2 purges.
33g BRU-1, 33g Idaho 7, 27g Moasic at about 66% of expected attenuation
60g Sabro, 24g Moasic a day later

I started spunding at 5PSI after the 2nd addition and added 0.5g of PMB dissolved in a small amount of water, added through the hop dropper at the start of the cold crash but the flavor was already there. Cold crashing seemed to reduce it at first but a day later it was very present.

All hops are YVH and have been stored frozen since I received them.

 

[G_robertus]

Medicinal sounds like chlorophenols. Do you clean equipment using chlorine compounds? Poorly rinsed materials that interact with beer can cause those. My other main suspicion would be a persistent infection causing those medicinal flavours, but you'd notice that in all beers. Same for poor rinsing. Lastly sulfites can also give bad sulfury flavours, but I wouldn't describe them as medicinal. How much do you add?

 

[matt_m]

I rinse with our city water which can be heavily clorinated (source is Lake Erie). Kettle I dry off with a towel so not much of anything would be left behind I'd think. Cold side I rinse with the same water then sanitize sanitizer made from RO water so even less there.

 

[G_robertus]

But your other beers don't suffer from this flavour? Or do you use different equipment? Because if they don't chlorine seems unlikely. If they do that could be a clue.
Chlorine evaporates quite well so a rinse should be fine I would say. However, you can test it by using a different water source for rinsing. Air drying is also recommended over wiping with a towel I think, but that's more likely because of soap residues and not the source of chlorine unless you bleach them.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Pinpointing off flavors I feel can be a challenge, especially via the wonderful world wide web. Is it possible that you're experiencing hop burn? Have you had other ppl try your hazies and see if they pick up on anything without you telling them first? Are you in a homebrew club where you could take your beer and have folks try it and get feedback? Sometimes it's tough to get honest feedback but it can certainly help. I'm not saying that you're not describing your off flavor incorrectly, so please dont take it that way, just saying that it can help to get as many opinions as possible... or even send a couple bottles to a competition and see what they say. I thought I was getting off flavors in one of my hazies, turns out I just don't like Bru-1.

 

[matt_m]

Oh, no I could very much be describing it incorrectly. I don't believe it to be hop burn as it never goes away. Have definitely noted a hop off flavor that mellows over a week or so.

 

[matt_m]

But your other beers don't suffer from this flavour? Or do you use different equipment? Because if they don't chlorine seems unlikely. If they do that could be a clue.
Chlorine evaporates quite well so a rinse should be fine I would say. However, you can test it by using a different water source for rinsing. Air drying is also recommended over wiping with a towel I think, but that's more likely because of soap residues and not the source of chlorine unless you bleach them.

No don't get this in any other beer and have never competed but got feedback on a number of beers via a friend who had BJCP certified friends who provided feedback that the beers they had tried were pretty good. They aren't local so not easy to have them sample this beer and it'd gain more issues packaging and shipping it.

 

[YeastFeast]

You don’t mention soft crashing to 55°F or so to drop yeast before you dry hop. This has by far led to the biggest improvement in my hazies. Before I did this, it would lead to some very unpleasant flavors.

 

[matt_m]

Interesting--so you ferment it all the way out, drop the yeast, then dry hop holding at 55?

Will get another batch on the schedule and give this a shot!

 

[YeastFeast]

Interesting--so you ferment it all the way out, drop the yeast, then dry hop holding at 55?

Will get another batch on the schedule and give this a shot!

Exactly. Fully ferment out, drop to 55°F for 2-3 days, dry hop once or more times for 24 hours each, cold crash.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Very good point made, I drop to 50f for a couple days and dump yeast and trub, I have a conical, but others will close transfer to dryhop vessel to get the beer off the yeast before dryhopping. Then I let the temp come up to 55f and dry hop, usually twice, for 2 days, then cold crash.

 

[matt_m]

I've been travelling a lot for work so hadn't gotten back to this, but this past weekend I brewed a new batch yesterday with no recipe changes. When completely fermented out I plan to sample for off flavors so, and if none, I'll follow @bailey mountain brewer's advice for the dry hop and cold crash.

 

[Indian_villager]

Where are you getting your hops from and how are you storing them? Hop quality is the biggest knob on getting these hazies as good as they can be. I've dealt with a dubious homebrew shop that would keep their 1lb bags of hops unrefrigerated next to a window. I stopped buying hops from them.

I agree with the soft crash, dump yeast, then dry hop method. I have been adding 1g of ascorbic and some ALDC in with the dry hop charges into the dry hopper.

 

[matt_m]

YVH, stored in their bags in the freezer. I have been adding PMB for a preservative but not long before kegging. I have some ALDC so I'll try including that too.

 

[matt_m]

Well I think I've made a good batch. Its been cold crashing and carbonating via a stone for 24 hours now and a sample looks (which hasn't been a problem), smells, and tastes like a Hazy IPA. It might possibly stand for slightly more dry hop character given that that typically falls off fast. I might go one more day before the cold crash on the dry hop next time and bubble some CO2 through the bottom to rouse the hops next time but its a respectable beer.