Hazy IPAs, Why?

[divrack]

Curious as to what you do to minimize oxidization. I made a NEIPA and in 20 days in the keg it was brown. View attachment 589277

At least it didn't go purple... I liquid purge kegs and transfer under co2 pressure. Had a keg do that even after everything just because one keg had a slightly poor seal when cold crashing and sucked in a few molecules of air.. as others say, neipa is fussy about O2.. well all hoppy beer is but with wheat and active dry hop it makes it into a dumper.

 

[CTS]

At least it didn't go purple... I liquid purge kegs and transfer under co2 pressure. Had a keg do that even after everything just because one keg had a slightly poor seal when cold crashing and sucked in a few molecules of air.. as others say, neipa is fussy about O2.. well all hoppy beer is but with wheat and active dry hop it makes it into a dumper.

I'm going to have to go the liquid purge route and try the transfer under pressure. Beer was still drinkable but noticeably tasted different. Glad it was only a 2.5 gallon test batch.

 

[CTS]

I’ve never had a beer visibly change color but I’ve had aroma fall off rather quickly which to me is the first signs of too much O2.

I do a modified version of what the Lowdo guys do when purging kegs and transferring. When I switched to that I get considerably less dop off in aroma. I will also Krausen in the serving keg if I have a fermenting beer I can pull off of. You want insane creamy mouthfeel, try that sometime.

Going to implement some of those techniques and see what happens. Going to have a look at this krausen in the leg thing, interesting.

 

[couchsending]

as others say, neipa is fussy about O2.. well all hoppy beer is but with wheat and active dry hop it makes it into a dumper.

Those seem like maybe some good reasons not to do said things...

 

[couchsending]

Going to implement some of those techniques and see what happens. Going to have a look at this krausen in the leg thing, interesting.

Krausening is really easy.. there’s a calcultor on Brewers Friend. I do it by weight. Never get it exact but it’s easy to tweak slightly with some
Co2 later on.

 

[divrack]

Those seem like maybe some good reasons not to do said things...

I don't really hold by beer definitions as such, except as a general shorthand for describing things... So yea you can make a great hazy hoppy beer without any flakes or active dry hop, but you can also make one with, and likewise terrible beer both ways too. Dogma is the enemy of beer. As it happens in currently drinking a pretty great great beer That wood probably fit the bjcp style guidelines of neipa I made with all the things you decry, but the last beer on a par I made without flaked anything and with the larger part of the dry hop in the keg... If you ask me it's all beer. I mean ipa isn't even really a thing. British ipa wasn't meant to be drunk particularly hoppy. Black ipa is an idiotic term and neipa I only allow as I quite like saying "neighpaa" in an annoying voice.. as for session ipa, I mean, just on yer bike son...
For me the artistry and beauty of beer is how many ways a great beer can be made, and how close to a bad beer they all are.
If it works it works.
That said, if I ever see a carbonara made with cream, someone is getting punched.

 

[danielthemaniel]

Nothing gets brewers going quite like a hazy ipa debate! Drink it if you like it and dont if you dont. One beer of any style does not reflect the potential of the style, especially from a nationally distributed brewery.

 

[kevin58]

It's obvious you didn't even read the bjcp link description I posted for NEIPA that I posted the other day....

This isn't breaking news from today....

The article was published 9/21... the same day I posted the link. But that is a sidebar to the fact that the BJCP has no specific category for NEIPA. It will.... when the next guideline comes out. The current guideline does not. You can enter, and they will judge NEIPA in the 21b category for provisional styles. But that does not make 21b the NEIPA category. it is, as I explained before, a catchall category for ALL of those provisional styles not covered in other categories....yet. I don't know how much plainer to explain it.

 

[Redtab78]

search this site for "Gambler". It's a dead on clone.

I searched and couldnt find it. can you post a link to it? I love seeing how others grain bills compare to mine.



On another note, One of the best I have ever had was made by Other Half brewing. I dont remember the name of the exact beer, but out here where I am over seas, there is not one single beer of this style sold anywhere (Guam). I have been making them right and left and have introduced so many people out here to the style. There has been alot of mixed expressions from some saying how great it is while others complain that it doesnt have the bitterness bite to it like they expect with one person (who is also a home brewer) ask me how in the hell can I call it a double IPA.....to which I respond that it is 8.5%, and I doubled the dry hop amounts. All this says to me is that it is still such a new style, MOST people out there just dont understand it yet.

When I do mine, I do not shoot specifically for a hazy look (but I do try for an orange juice color), I try more to get a creamy mouthfeel with a super juicy and fruity aroma and tase but I also do not really keep them sweet (typical FG is around 1.012-1.014).

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I searched and couldnt find it. can you post a link to it? I love seeing how others grain bills compare to mine.



On another note, One of the best I have ever had was made by Other Half brewing. I dont remember the name of the exact beer, but out here where I am over seas, there is not one single beer of this style sold anywhere (Guam). I have been making them right and left and have introduced so many people out here to the style. There has been alot of mixed expressions from some saying how great it is while others complain that it doesnt have the bitterness bite to it like they expect with one person (who is also a home brewer) ask me how in the hell can I call it a double IPA.....to which I respond that it is 8.5%, and I doubled the dry hop amounts. All this says to me is that it is still such a new style, MOST people out there just dont understand it yet.

When I do mine, I do not shoot specifically for a hazy look (but I do try for an orange juice color), I try more to get a creamy mouthfeel with a super juicy and fruity aroma and tase but I also do not really keep them sweet (typical FG is around 1.012-1.014).

Smart man. The haze isn't the goal, it's a side effect. Your beers sound tasty.

 

[Veets]

There has been alot of mixed expressions from some saying how great it is while others complain that it doesnt have the bitterness bite to it like they expect with one person (who is also a home brewer) ask me how in the hell can I call it a double IPA.

This right here.

I don't have a problem with drinking NEIPAs, but I have a problem with calling them IPAs without further qualification. Case in point, when ordering a beer the other day, I browsed the tap handles and chose a random IPA. After receiving the glass, it was obvious it was a NEIPA. IMO, an IPA has to be bitter. Once you take out the bitterness, it's no longer an IPA and it should be called something else, so you can know what you get when you're ordering.

You guys are much more knowledgeable than me about this stuff, but are there any other really bitter-tasting beers that aren't bitters, IPAs, and IPLs? With each of those, you know you're getting a bitter beer when you order. What would it be like if you ordered a cream ale, and it turned out to be some new style that was loaded with IBUs? Should you call it a cream ale?

 

[isomerization]

Curious as to what you do to minimize oxidization. I made a NEIPA and in 20 days in the keg it was brown. View attachment 589277

I can’t provide any scientific evidence, but I see yeast strain specific sensitivities to oxidation. For me at least, I have never had issues with WY1318 beers darkening. When I’ve used Conan or other English strains, I had much quicker darkening and able/aroma drop off (~2 months).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

IMO, an IPA has to be bitter. Once you take out the bitterness, it's no longer an IPA and it should be called something else, so you can know what you get when you're ordering.

You guys are much more knowledgeable than me about this stuff, but are there any other really bitter-tasting beers that aren't bitters, IPAs, and IPLs?

Czech 12's go up to 45 IBU, German pils up to about 40 IBU, most Dusseldorf alts are around 35 IBU with Zum Uerige at 50 IBU....

But it's a bit rich complaining about the appropriation of "IPA", at least from a British perspective. Surely IPAs can only be made with Goldings?

 

[TheAleRunner]

So much "Get Off My Lawn!" in this thread.

I like hazy IPAs. I like clear IPAs. I like session IPAs. I like triple IPAs. You may not like what I like. And that's OK.

 

[Redtab78]

This right here.

I don't have a problem with drinking NEIPAs, but I have a problem with calling them IPAs without further qualification. Case in point, when ordering a beer the other day, I browsed the tap handles and chose a random IPA. After receiving the glass, it was obvious it was a NEIPA. IMO, an IPA has to be bitter. Once you take out the bitterness, it's no longer an IPA and it should be called something else, so you can know what you get when you're ordering.

You guys are much more knowledgeable than me about this stuff, but are there any other really bitter-tasting beers that aren't bitters, IPAs, and IPLs? With each of those, you know you're getting a bitter beer when you order. What would it be like if you ordered a cream ale, and it turned out to be some new style that was loaded with IBUs? Should you call it a cream ale?

Ill tell you the same thing i tell my neighbors lol. The name "IPA" or india pale ale comes from the history of when british Sailors would take beer in barrels out to sea to go through the East india Trading Route. The beers would spoil throughout the trip, but brewers learned that by overloading the hops, the oils preserved the beer longer. So they took their normal pale ale recipies and overloaded the hops and called it the India Pale Ale to differentiate the barrels for the sailors and the beer for the taverns. Over time, our palets have learned to associate the name with the extra biterness, but the beginnings of an IPA was really only about 25 or so IBU's, not the 80+ ibus of today.

Just like with anything in our world, humans evolve and with them so does or knowledge, technology and creativity, the yesteryears of high ibu, high bitterness that "defined" the style is just simply evolving. BUT history always repeats itself, its only a matter of time that we find our breweries and ourselves for that matter, striving to reach the outer limits of IBUs and it will be a race for the most "dank, piney, resiny" beer to hit the market with whatever hops happen to come from all the mixed breeding.

SOOO, sit back, relax, enjoy the scenery and for god sakes, keep an open mind as we all explore new dimensions and new flavors

 

[Veets]

Ill tell you the same thing i tell my neighbors lol. The name "IPA" or india pale ale comes from the history of when british Sailors would take beer in barrels out to sea to go through the East india Trading Route. The beers would spoil throughout the trip, but brewers learned that by overloading the hops, the oils preserved the beer longer. So they took their normal pale ale recipies and overloaded the hops and called it the India Pale Ale to differentiate the barrels for the sailors and the beer for the taverns. Over time, our palets have learned to associate the name with the extra biterness, but the beginnings of an IPA was really only about 25 or so IBU's, not the 80+ ibus of today.

Just like with anything in our world, humans evolve and with them so does or knowledge, technology and creativity, the yesteryears of high ibu, high bitterness that "defined" the style is just simply evolving. BUT history always repeats itself, its only a matter of time that we find our breweries and ourselves for that matter, striving to reach the outer limits of IBUs and it will be a race for the most "dank, piney, resiny" beer to hit the market with whatever hops happen to come from all the mixed breeding.

SOOO, sit back, relax, enjoy the scenery and for god sakes, keep an open mind as we all explore new dimensions and new flavors

My point was not about the lack of enjoyment of new dimensions and new flavors. I'm all for that. As I said, I don't have a problem drinking NEIPAs. I can drink one, and sometimes two in a row. My point is that we shouldn't redefine a style. A new style should get its own name. And if the IPA we know today isn't the same as the IPA of old British times, then it should have gotten a new name too (Super IPA?).

You see it all the time in other walks of life. In music, punk rock branched off of rock. A new kind of sound became "new wave" and then "alternative" sprouted up. There's pop, power pop, dream pop, shoe gaze, etc. There's hip hop, trip hop, and all other kinds of hop I have no idea about. People like the differentiation so they know what they're getting. I know some artists don't like being pigeonholed into one particular style for fear that they'll limit their audience, but I don't think that's a concern for brewers.

I wonder whether the folks who came up with some of these beers decided to latch on to the IPA name because IPAs are still popular and sell well. Similar to how they don't call them hoppy lagers, they call them IPLs. IMO, it's not good for the consumer to be presented with the same IPA name for beers that are so vastly different as typical IPAs and NEIPAs.

 

[day_trippr]

I brew West Coast, New England, and English IPAs without much difficulty in the differentiation, and folks that drink them seem to understand what makes them different without much prompting...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

The issue with the “style” is the “originators” of the style were rather tight lipped with how they were producing said beers so the method for making them revolves around shortcuts or methods by homebrewers and others on how to make them. Then you got people focusing on trying to make them hazy which generally makes them worse.

John Kimmich and Shaun Hill were just trying to make softer more aromatic beers that were a better expression of the hops they were using. Haze happened to be a result not the goal. Alchemist beers are definitely more bitter than most and will clear much more so than others. HF and TH beers have plenty of bitterness it’s just all that the front of the pallate and then disappears so people think they’re super low bitterness. They’re not, it’s just better bitterness through a better understanding of water and the science behind the process. Willing to bet both breweries add as much if not
More hops to the kettle than the whirlpool. Nate has pretty much confirmed that and any recipe you can find from Shaun would say the same thing. Most people judge the “style” based of some crappy examples that couldn’t be farther from what the people who made these popular were trying to accomplish.

 

[divrack]

Ill tell you the same thing i tell my neighbors lol. The name "IPA" or india pale ale comes from the history of when british Sailors would take beer in barrels out to sea to go through the East india Trading Route. The beers would spoil throughout the trip, but brewers learned that by overloading the hops, the oils preserved the beer longer. So they took their normal pale ale recipies and overloaded the hops and called it the India Pale Ale to differentiate the barrels for the sailors and the beer for the taverns. Over time, our palets have learned to associate the name with the extra biterness, but the beginnings of an IPA was really only about 25 or so IBU's, not the 80+ ibus of today.

Just like with anything in our world, humans evolve and with them so does or knowledge, technology and creativity, the yesteryears of high ibu, high bitterness that "defined" the style is just simply evolving. BUT history always repeats itself, its only a matter of time that we find our breweries and ourselves for that matter, striving to reach the outer limits of IBUs and it will be a race for the most "dank, piney, resiny" beer to hit the market with whatever hops happen to come from all the mixed breeding.

SOOO, sit back, relax, enjoy the scenery and for god sakes, keep an open mind as we all explore new dimensions and new flavors

You yanks have always confused big with good... Sometimes you get lucky.
(No need for any mother jokes or "so did your girl" comments thank you)

 

[divrack]

The issue with the “style” is the “originators” of the style were rather tight lipped with how they were producing said beers so the method for making them revolves around shortcuts or methods by homebrewers and others on how to make them. Then you got people focusing on trying to make them hazy which generally makes them worse.

John Kimmich and Shaun Hill were just trying to make softer more aromatic beers that were a better expression of the hops they were using. Haze happened to be a result not the goal. Alchemist beers are definitely more bitter than most and will clear much more so than others. HF and TH beers have plenty of bitterness it’s just all that the front of the pallate and then disappears so people think they’re super low bitterness. They’re not, it’s just better bitterness through a better understanding of water and the science behind the process. Willing to bet both breweries add as much if not
More hops to the kettle than the whirlpool. Nate has pretty much confirmed that and any recipe you can find from Shaun would say the same thing. Most people judge the “style” based of some crappy examples that couldn’t be farther from what the people who made these popular were trying to accomplish.

I think their secret is adding tonnes of lactose.

 

[harrydrez]

There is no Hefe yeast involved in hazy IPAs and it's no longer a fad. It's an official BJCP style. But I think you knew that already.

The New Belgium one is not a good example. You want to try TreeHouse, Trillium, Monkish and all the other new, good ones.

Just because it is an official style, does not mean it is not a fad. "Cascadian Dark Ales" would like a word.

 

[day_trippr]

Can a style that has existed for over 20 years still be a fad?

Cheers!

 

[rodwha]

Ill tell you the same thing i tell my neighbors lol. The name "IPA" or india pale ale comes from the history of when british Sailors would take beer in barrels out to sea to go through the East india Trading Route. The beers would spoil throughout the trip, but brewers learned that by overloading the hops, the oils preserved the beer longer. So they took their normal pale ale recipies and overloaded the hops and called it the India Pale Ale to differentiate the barrels for the sailors and the beer for the taverns. Over time, our palets have learned to associate the name with the extra biterness, but the beginnings of an IPA was really only about 25 or so IBU's, not the 80+ ibus of today.

According to Mitch Steele’s book, IPA Brewing Techniques, Recipes, and the Evolution of India Pale Ale, the IPA started out as October beer (stock or keeping ale) and used 4.86 lbs of hops in 31 gals in the early 1700’s. That’s a bit over 3/4 lbs for a 5.25 gal batch and pretty close to what many people use these days for ultra hoppy IPAs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_ale

 

[Cevan65]

Curious as to what you do to minimize oxidization. I made a NEIPA and in 20 days in the keg it was brown. View attachment 589277

I fill my kegs with SanStar, then purge with CO2, and finally a closed transfer. The longest one of my kegs has lasted is about 2 months but I’ve never seen a color change.

 

[couchsending]

Minimizing Oxidation. These are processes you should use for almost any beer, not just hoppy hazy ones.

Fill keg to the top with Star San, push 1 pint out, pull the liquid out and purge the remaining headspace 11 times with 30 PSI, reattach liquid out and push remaining SS out.

Make sure all your transfer lines are thoroughly purged.

Don’t use Oats, the fatty acids speed up oxidation.

Keep as much trub out of your fermenter as possible, use whirlfloc as well. (1/2 tab for 5 gallons)

Use some Brewtan B

Try krausening a keg. Really helps to eliminate any picked up O2 and creates a much smoother beer in my mind.

 

[harten74]

rodwha, Looks like you live in the Austin area. If so, Pinthouse Pizza brews quite a few excellent NEIPAs (Electric Jellyfish and Hazed & Confused are two that come to mind) and they’ll be fresh as can be if you swing in either location.

 

[rodwha]

rodwha, Looks like you live in the Austin area. If so, Pinthouse Pizza brews quite a few excellent NEIPAs (Electric Jellyfish and Hazed & Confused are two that come to mind) and they’ll be fresh as can be if you swing in either location.

OH YES! We went to the IPA showdown at Craft Pride and both agreed Electric Jellyfish was the winner, and still look for it. An excellent IPA for sure, and we’d say the best local one, though there are many good ones. It’s actually not easy to find where I am (NW of Austin). Wasn’t aware that it was a NE/Hazy/Juicy style.

 

[wepeeler]

I can’t provide any scientific evidence, but I see yeast strain specific sensitivities to oxidation. For me at least, I have never had issues with WY1318 beers darkening. When I’ve used Conan or other English strains, I had much quicker darkening and able/aroma drop off (~2 months).

I agree. I've done primarily 1318, without much color change. I got maybe a touch of darkening after week 5. I can't vouch for anything farther out than that, as 5 gallons goes quickly when everyone and their mother wants a growler. Another thing I've been told is that oats contribute to oxidation moreso than other grains...

Also, I have yet to move to closed transferring. I dry hop 2x by popping the top of my primary bucket (usually day 2 and 3 days before kegging). I also transfer with an auto-siphon. I really don't want to jinx myself, but I have never had a neipa turn brown.

 

[MGamber]

I searched and couldnt find it. can you post a link to it? I love seeing how others grain bills compare to mine.



On another note, One of the best I have ever had was made by Other Half brewing. I dont remember the name of the exact beer, but out here where I am over seas, there is not one single beer of this style sold anywhere (Guam). I have been making them right and left and have introduced so many people out here to the style. There has been alot of mixed expressions from some saying how great it is while others complain that it doesnt have the bitterness bite to it like they expect with one person (who is also a home brewer) ask me how in the hell can I call it a double IPA.....to which I respond that it is 8.5%, and I doubled the dry hop amounts. All this says to me is that it is still such a new style, MOST people out there just dont understand it yet.

When I do mine, I do not shoot specifically for a hazy look (but I do try for an orange juice color), I try more to get a creamy mouthfeel with a super juicy and fruity aroma and tase but I also do not really keep them sweet (typical FG is around 1.012-1.014).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/gambler-ipa-2018-iron-brewer-competition-winner.650344/

I do my own NEIPA style beers and I also try to clone some of my favorites. Another one I'm VERY close to dead on cloning is Foundation Brewing's Epiphany. I was in Portland a couple weeks ago and grabbed a couple 4 packs and then forgot about them until about 15 minutes ago when I realized my clone is on tap and I have 8 cans of the real thing. I did a side by side and their's has a slightly sharper bitterness and a little more sweetness so I figured I'd move the bittering charge from FWH to 60 minute and mash at 156 instead of 149. Funny thing about Epiphany is, you go to the brewery to get some and have a draft while you're there and it's hazy as anything. Then you get home with the cans, crack one open and it's crystal clear. This opposed to Swish (of which my Gambler is a dead on clone) which is way hazy no matter how you get it.

I believe a lot of it has to do with the hops. Falconer's Flight (the primary hop in Maine Beer Co's Dinner) drops out easily and Dinner is crystal clear. Citra and Mosaic are a little more difficult. I did a Belma SMaSH that I cold crashed and fined with gelatin and it was as hazy after that as it was before it. I'm pretty sure I heard it laughing at my attempt to clear that beer!

 

[bkz]

I find, like with food, appearance affects the perception of what you intend to taste. That is, before you even take a sip your mind has determined a profile for what you're going to be tossing down your throat.

With hazy IPA's you liken it automatically to juice. Orange juice, pineapple juice, grapefruit juice, whatever. It all has a similar appearance, you associate it because that's just what your brain does. When you drink it, and if it tastes more juice-like, you enjoy it more because it's what you want and expect.

Imagine drinking orange juice, but clear. Just imagine it, try hard. Does it taste the same to you in your mind? What do you expect it to taste like and what does it taste like. It's like that. I wouldn't want to drink a hazy pilsner, but if I drink a hazy IPA and it has a juicy bitterness to it I'm okay with that because that's what I expect it to taste like.

Or at least that's how I view it!