Hazy IPAs, Why?

[Hwk-I-St8]

It’s based on comments from Nate and JC, and other brewers who’s beer I respect. Basically that they’re pulling hops from WP and adding them to the DH instead. If you’re going to add huge DH additions it has a more pound for pound impact on the final beer than that same amount in WP.

There are so many variables that go into perceived bitterness. You could have a beer with a much higher perceived bitterness with only WP additions below 170 vs ones with piles of hops added throughout the boil. Water, pH, pitch rate, process all come into play.

This is great. Go on.....

 

[couchsending]

Do your research... no one told me I’ve had to figure it out for myself through reading, understanding, and making slight tweaks to process every time.

What variable has an affect on bitterness and for some part haze that could be modified to affect both in a way that would benefit this style?

 

[kevin58]

It's exactly the reason 21b was created as a category. 21b is not a "catchall category".

If you enter NEIPA into any other category, the judges will (or should, if they're a halfway knowledgeable judge) say it should've been entered in 21B. So, yes, it has a recognized BJCP category.

View attachment 589148

No, it is not a NEIPA specific category. 21b includes Belgian IPA, Black IPA, Brown IPA, Red IPA, Rye IPA and White IPA. NEIPA has no specific place in the BJCP style. If you heard Gordon Strong actually speak about the subject you would hear him explain that 21b is a catchall to hold all the fast developing IPA sub styles like NEIPA. But it is not specifically for NEIPA.

 

[bob1852]

NEIPA has no specific place in the BJCP style.

How is 21B not specific?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

 

[kevin58]

How is 21B not specific?

LOL... because 21B includes Belgian, Black Brown, Red, Rye and White IPA. They are all specifically mentioned in the official 2015 BJCP style guidelines. Look them over. I've attached the PDF below. You know what you WON'T find listed? Take a guess.

HOWEVER! This was just posted today... literally between my last post and this one. An article that was just published an hour ago by Beersyndicate.com titled "The Six New Beer Styles of 2018". http://www.beersyndicate.com/blog/six-new-beer-styles-2018/

The first paragraphs state:
"It was revealed at the 2018 National Homebrew Conference by Gordon Strong, current president of the Beer Judge Certification Program, that six beer styles are on the verge of being officially canonized into the defacto authority on beer styles, the BJCP Beer Style Guidelines.


Technically these new beer styles aren’t exactly new, nor have they yet been formally inducted into the BJCP Beer Guidelines as fully-fledged beer styles because the guidelines are only revised every five years or so. This means that until the next revamp of the guidelines occurs, these “new” beer styles are considered “provisional” and may be subject to revision."

So the answer to NEIPA being an official BJCP style... which was the original statement I commented on... is no, it is not. And to answer my reply to you whether 21b is for NEIPA the answer is also no, it is not. 21b is for all those currently un-catagorized IPA variants.


https://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hazy NIEPA is like thicc booty. If you hafta ask why, it ain't meant for you.

...An article that was just published an hour ago by Beersyndicate.com titled "The Six New Beer Styles of 2018". http://www.beersyndicate.com/blog/six-new-beer-styles-2018/

1. New England IPA: Generally an American IPA but with intense fruit flavor and aroma, soft body, smooth mouthfeel...

Seems the BJCP and I are aligned on this style..

 

[divrack]

Why? Because I says so that's why.
Also biotransformation.
But as with all fads done people will jump in with a load of rubbish... Most people in fact.
Mediocrity is normalcy

 

[bob1852]

HOWEVER! This was just posted today... literally between my last post and this one. An article that was just published an hour ago by Beersyndicate.com titled "The Six New Beer Styles of 2018". http://www.beersyndicate.com/blog/six-new-beer-styles-2018/

It's obvious you didn't even read the bjcp link description I posted for NEIPA that I posted the other day....

This isn't breaking news from today....

 

[rodwha]

Why are we asking "Why" in the first place? It should be "Why not?" Isn't the point of the homebrew game to do whatever the fark you want regardless of what is hot on the market right now?

For sure. But then it’s not a good thing when what you’re left with is tainted, right? Kind of like a sour or some such.

I had no clue Heady Topper was a haze IPA. It has plenty of hop flavor/character and it’s not hard whatsoever to understand that it’s an IPA. But to make an IPA that has a hop character such as New Belgium’s version has one wondering what it’s supposed to be. The way the hop character is melded into the beer does not give one the impression of an IPA. It tasted more like a mistake. If some people like it that’s great. And that some don’t is typical. As many have stated they aren’t doing the style justice by doing what they are doing it would seem.

Ultimately, figuring New Belgium puts out descent beers, I assumed this was a properly made hazy IPA. Obviously there are ones out made that don’t make you wonder if it belongs in the IPA category.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@couchsending what type of sugar did you use? That's a nice creamy headed beer. Surprisingly so if using cane sugar which tends to thin and dry a beer out.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Heady is a hazy IPA although not extreme by todays standards. Greg and John created their first hazy beers at the VPB in the mid 90's. Fast forward to maybe 2003 or so to the Alchemist Pub where Heady premiered. It gains popularity with beer drinkers in NE. Other NE breweries follow suit but build on the haze and murk and the style gets more and more cloudy. Now in my opinion certain breweries just focused on the haze and not the flavor. (Hill Farmstead wasn't one of these, Shauns beers have a softer pillowy feel) It was a rush to see "How hazy can we get this beer?" so now you have beers in the style that are complete murk because thats what they thought the consumer wanted IMO). I dont believe that Greg and Johns main focus was to create the haziest brew, just ones that tasted the best.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

For sure. But then it’s not a good thing when what you’re left with is tainted, right? Kind of like a sour or some such.

I had no clue Heady Topper was a haze IPA. It has plenty of hop flavor/character and it’s not hard whatsoever to understand that it’s an IPA. But to make an IPA that has a hop character such as New Belgium’s version has one wondering what it’s supposed to be. The way the hop character is melded into the beer does not give one the impression of an IPA. It tasted more like a mistake. If some people like it that’s great. And that some don’t is typical. As many have stated they aren’t doing the style justice by doing what they are doing it would seem.

Ultimately, figuring New Belgium puts out descent beers, I assumed this was a properly made hazy IPA. Obviously there are ones out made that don’t make you wonder if it belongs in the IPA category.

I think, like plenty of threads here on HBT this is the crux of it. Subjectivity. What is a mistake or what is what it was "supposed" to be? And how can "the way the hop character is melded into the beer" not give the impression of an IPA? If these are the foundations for you thinking it is "tainted" I just think that is extreme phrasing. Tainted (to me) is you take a drink of the beer and have to spit it out or get sick or something not "my idea of the style they use to describe this beer is slightly different" or something along those lines. If Voodoo Ranger is the beer you are referencing I would challenge anyone to not recognize it as "hop forward" like an IPA even if you don't like the flavor etc.

 

[rodwha]

I think, like plenty of threads here on HBT this is the crux of it. Subjectivity. What is a mistake or what is what it was "supposed" to be? And how can "the way the hop character is melded into the beer" not give the impression of an IPA? If these are the foundations for you thinking it is "tainted" I just think that is extreme phrasing. Tainted (to me) is you take a drink of the beer and have to spit it out or get sick or something not "my idea of the style they use to describe this beer is slightly different" or something along those lines. If Voodoo Ranger is the beer you are referencing I would challenge anyone to not recognize it as "hop forward" like an IPA even if you don't like the flavor etc.

A Pilsner is hop forward as well in a sense.

An IPA shouldn’t have a muddied hoppiness. In no other style of IPA have I encountered what New Belgium has done, and I’ve had a tremendous number of them. The flavors that dominate aren’t the hops. It’s all muddied with nothing defining it.

 

[rodwha]

21B: Specialty IPA:

“
Overall Impression
Recognizable as an IPA by balance-a hop-forward, bitter, dryish beer-with something else present to distinguish it from the standard categories. Should have good drinkability, regardless of the form. Excessive harshness and heaviness are typically faults, as are strong flavor clashes between the hops and the other specialty ingredients.”

They failed in this regard. Maybe you haven’t tried it?

 

[bob1852]

Yet again...

http://dev.bjcp.org/news/bjcp-announces-provisional-styles/

BJCP Announces Provisional Styles

July 4, 2018

These styles are considered draft, but may be used by competitions as official styles.

http://dev.bjcp.org/beer-styles/21b-specialty-ipa-new-england-ipa/

21B. Specialty IPA: New England IPA

February 21, 2018

Overall Impression

An American IPA with intense fruit flavors and aromas, a soft body, and smooth mouthfeel, and often opaque with substantial haze. Less perceived bitterness than traditional IPAs but always massively hop forward. This emphasis on late hopping, especially dry hopping, with hops with tropical fruit qualities lends the specific ‘juicy’ character for which this style is known.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

21B: Specialty IPA:

“
Overall Impression
Recognizable as an IPA by balance-a hop-forward, bitter, dryish beer-with something else present to distinguish it from the standard categories. Should have good drinkability, regardless of the form. Excessive harshness and heaviness are typically faults, as are strong flavor clashes between the hops and the other specialty ingredients.”

They failed in this regard. Maybe you haven’t tried it?

I have tried it and enjoy it very much, I just don't think a beer is a failure because you think it has hop flavor but it is "muddled", the same way it isn't the best beer in the world because I enjoy it. That is why these are silly things to discuss, but on HBT we are all sitting around in between brew days shootin' the breeze so here we sit.

 

[rodwha]

I have tried it and enjoy it very much, I just don't think a beer is a failure because you think it has hop flavor but it is "muddled", the same way it isn't the best beer in the world because I enjoy it. That is why these are silly things to discuss, but on HBT we are all sitting around in between brew days shootin' the breeze so here we sit.

For sure. Every beer isn’t for everyone.

It just threw me for a loop with the cloudied flavors. It didn’t come across like every other (including the ones I greatly disliked) IPA where the hops are the star and maybe there’s a strong maltiness as well, or even a Belgian twist. As I pointed out it failed to have the hops shine unobstructed.

 

[GPP33]

So, let me get this straight. NEIPA, or hazy IPA if you will, is a very young style, there's isn't any real history behind it but since it's become a trend everyone has jumped on and developed their take on it. It's popularity and the the fact that everyone makes one has prompted BJCP to define it with it's own category. This all makes sense. However, given the lack of history behind the style the only thing we have to base it's characteristics on is a sampling or average of what the industry has done with it over the past decade or so. As many have pointed out in the this thread, the average NEIPA is a murky muddled mess, sure some brewers are making an amazingly delicious beer with this style but it seems they are actually on the fringe and are NOT representative of the style whatsoever. Isn't that like me not liking sours so I brew a nice fresh West Coast IPA but call it a sour and say, "Yea, it tastes nothing like what the industry generally calls a sour, it actually tastes good".

 

[bob1852]

It's too bad that BJCP doesn't write up a comparison of closely related styles, nor commercial examples of said style.

Oh wait...

Style Comparison

Compared to American IPA, New England IPA has a fuller, softer mouthfeel, a more fruit-forward late hop expression, a more restrained perceived bitterness balance, and a hazier appearance. Many modern American IPAs are fruity and somewhat hazy; if they have a dry, crisp finish, at most medium body, and high perceived bitterness, these examples should be entered as American IPAs. Noticeable additions of fruit, lactose, or other materials to increase the fruity, smooth character should be entered in another category defined by the additive (e.g., Fruit Beer, Specialty Beer).

Commercial Examples

Hill Farmstead Susan, Other Half Green Diamonds Double IPA, Tired Hands Alien Church, Tree House Julius, Trillium Congress Street, WeldWerks Juicy Bits

http://dev.bjcp.org/beer-styles/21b-specialty-ipa-new-england-ipa/

 

[MGamber]

IMO, the best example of a NEIPA is Bissell Brothers' Swish. It's just beautful. Fruity, a little sweet to bring out the hops, low bitterness, very nice feel and pretty fizzy so you can smell it from across the room when you crack open a can. It does seem like everyone is adding a NEIPA to their portfolio but so many miss the mark. I haven't had the New Belgium NEIPA specifically but I have had plenty that were obviously about nothing more than the haze. Indistinct or confusing flavors, west coast style bitterness and over the top astringency are just a few problems I find with quite a few of them, mostly from breweries that simply want a NEIPA in their portfolio and don't really put in the effort. If you want to drink a really good example, try Swish or Substance from Bissell Brothers, Venture or Epiphany from Foundation, Flume or any of the Onsight series from Battery Steele, **** from Liquid Riot, Chaos Emeralds and Oh-J from Lone Pine. If you want to make Swish (it's only made between Oct and Apr and sells out in hours), search this site for "Gambler". It's a dead on clone.

 

[couchsending]

@couchsending what type of sugar did you use? That's a nice creamy headed beer. Surprisingly so if using cane sugar which tends to thin and dry a beer out.

Regular ol Dextrose

Sugar shouldn’t affect head retention in any way. At the moment any hoppy beer above 7% gets sugar to dry it out slightly. I don’t really like hoppy beers above 1.014 and especially IIPAs, they get too sweet. I don’t make many beers above 6.5% though so I haven’t tried other methods of drying the beer out to see if it makes a difference.

 

[divrack]

Not to beat a dead horse but since most think I’m full of sh** here’s a photo for reference (and I’m aware photos don’t really say much about a beer).

I theoretically did everything to make this clear except post Ferm finings. This has been in an undisturbed keg for 6 weeks now and shows zero signs of clearing.

8% IIPA
Grainbill
71% Weyermann Pils
20% Mecca Pale Ale Malt
2% Honey Malt
1lb of Sugar


42 IBUs at 60
Motueka/Nelson at 20/5 for 20ish IBUs
3oz total Motueka/Nelson/Rakau WP

1/2 Tab Whirlfloc in kettle

Transferred to FV after all break had settled so wort was almost crystal clear. Dumped any remaining trub at 12 hours.

Imperial A30 yeast

Zero dry hops added during fermentation. Cold crashed (with head pressure) to 55 for two days to try to get as much yeast to flocc as possible. Pulled yeast and added DH addition (9oz split Rakau/Nelson). Let rise to 62 and sit for 5 days. Slowly crashed to 40 (I can’t go lower and maintain positive pressure effectively) and sit for 2 days. Closed transfer to keg and force carbonated while lagering at 32 for a week.

Smells and tastes like fruit with a touch of pine from the Rakau. Still light with soft bitterness with a head that lasts for the whole pint. Still some things that need to be better but I don’t really like to make beers above 6.5% so not sure when I’ll try another one.

Sorry I suck at photos.

View attachment 589001

View attachment 589002

Looks nice, more bitter than I like an neipa though, but it's also stronger.
Good looking head, what is your mash profile?, Or do you think it's from high alpha?
I get a decent head but it isn't quite as meranguish..

 

[Northern_Brewer]

No doubt. However this is supposed to be a style of IPA....Heady Topper is one I’ve had and thought was good. It doesn’t rate high for me, but then I rate IPAs (other than British) on the same scale.

The way the hop character is melded into the beer does not give one the impression of an IPA. It tasted more like a mistake.

You do realise that you're essentially repeating all the arguments that British brewers had about West Coast IPAs in the 1990s? Why would you want pine/citrus in your IPA when for centuries proper IPAs had been made with Goldings?

There's a fair bit of nonsense talked about haze but the main source of it in the "good" beers seems to be interactions between polyphenols and proline-rich proteins. So if you eg use lupulin powder (which has had the polyphenols removed along with all the green stuff) you get less haze than if you use pellets.

 

[CTS]

Not to beat a dead horse but since most think I’m full of sh** here’s a photo for reference (and I’m aware photos don’t really say much about a beer).

I theoretically did everything to make this clear except post Ferm finings. This has been in an undisturbed keg for 6 weeks now and shows zero signs of clearing.

8% IIPA
Grainbill
71% Weyermann Pils
20% Mecca Pale Ale Malt
2% Honey Malt
1lb of Sugar


42 IBUs at 60
Motueka/Nelson at 20/5 for 20ish IBUs
3oz total Motueka/Nelson/Rakau WP

1/2 Tab Whirlfloc in kettle

Transferred to FV after all break had settled so wort was almost crystal clear. Dumped any remaining trub at 12 hours.

Imperial A30 yeast

Zero dry hops added during fermentation. Cold crashed (with head pressure) to 55 for two days to try to get as much yeast to flocc as possible. Pulled yeast and added DH addition (9oz split Rakau/Nelson). Let rise to 62 and sit for 5 days. Slowly crashed to 40 (I can’t go lower and maintain positive pressure effectively) and sit for 2 days. Closed transfer to keg and force carbonated while lagering at 32 for a week.

Smells and tastes like fruit with a touch of pine from the Rakau. Still light with soft bitterness with a head that lasts for the whole pint. Still some things that need to be better but I don’t really like to make beers above 6.5% so not sure when I’ll try another one.

Sorry I suck at photos.

View attachment 589001

View attachment 589002

Curious as to what you do to minimize oxidization. I made a NEIPA and in 20 days in the keg it was brown.

 

[GPP33]

Wow, I’ve heard of this style going dark, never seen a picture showing just how much darker. That’s amazing.

 

[day_trippr]

Cold side oxidation is a huge potential problem with neipas. Gotta be totally OC about exposure...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

Looks nice, more bitter than I like an neipa though, but it's also stronger.
Good looking head, what is your mash profile?, Or do you think it's from high alpha?
I get a decent head but it isn't quite as meranguish..

I’m not trying to make NEIPA necessarily, just IPA. Again I think the best hoppy beers I drink have a decent amount of bitterness, light on the pallet, and are easy to drink more than one of. I live at 7000 feet so I get crappy utilization as I boil at 201 so I doubt it’s even that high in IBUs.

I step mash everything and think it makes a huge difference. Depends on the beer and the base malt but I think this one was 133-150-162-168.

 

[couchsending]

Curious as to what you do to minimize oxidization. I made a NEIPA and in 20 days in the keg it was brown. View attachment 589277

I’ve never had a beer visibly change color but I’ve had aroma fall off rather quickly which to me is the first signs of too much O2.

I do a modified version of what the Lowdo guys do when purging kegs and transferring. When I switched to that I get considerably less dop off in aroma. I will also Krausen in the serving keg if I have a fermenting beer I can pull off of. You want insane creamy mouthfeel, try that sometime.

 

[couchsending]

Double post