Hazy IPAs, Why?
- Thread starter rodwha
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Just because the IBU number is high doesn’t make it overly bitter. I use 1/2 of of Warrior for bittering and use about 2 1/2 of of a nice high AA hop/hops for a flavoring and aroma addition getting around 100 IBUs, along with a healthy whirlpool and dry hop. Mine aren’t bitter at all, but are the hop bombs much like a west coast style, whereas some others are more malty and have a more prominent bitter and lesser hoppiness.
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
I’ve also tried one no bittering IPA with an equal 30, 20, 10, and 5 min addition with dry hop, but it was oddly missing the bittering. I didn’t care for it and so fellows here on this forum advised me on the small bittering and huge late additions to achieve the west coast profile.
couchsending
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2016
- Messages
- 3,032
- Reaction score
- 2,131
It’s based on comments from Nate and JC, and other brewers who’s beer I respect. Basically that they’re pulling hops from WP and adding them to the DH instead. If you’re going to add huge DH additions it has a more pound for pound impact on the final beer than that same amount in WP.
There are so many variables that go into perceived bitterness. You could have a beer with a much higher perceived bitterness with only WP additions below 170 vs ones with piles of hops added throughout the boil. Water, pH, pitch rate, process all come into play.
Whatever the new popular beer style is someone will say "I don't get it". Not long ago people were saying the same thing about West Coast IPAs. If you don't like a beer style don't make it, don't drink it, don't whinge about it. I don't like Saisons, sours, or high gravity beers. My solution is to not drink them.
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
Use any yeast you want. It doesn't matter. Actually, use any malt also. Or no malt. You wont taste anything past the hops. Hazy, juicy, whatever the cool buzzword is this week, its simply bile. Also known as a pheromone used to attract neck beards, dreadlocks and man buns.
^Right on cue^
And almost spooky
Cheers!
And almost spooky
Cheers!
Hazy NIEPA is like thicc booty. If you hafta ask why, it ain't meant for you.
Last edited:
InMyHumbleOpinion
Member
GABF juicy/hazy IPA was added to BA categories this year. First time in the competition and it was the biggest category. Not even a comparison.
Hazy brews help remind me how much I appreciate a well made beer. When I'm feeling in a rut, I have a hazy and remind myself that there are really crappy brews out there and further appreciate all of the steps involved in a proper brews.
ChootchMcGooch
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2018
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
If you get a chance to try Mikkellars Windy Hill series it might make more sense to you. I definitely wouldnt judge entire genres of beer off of New Belgium examples.
The idea is to leave a lot of the sediment suspended in the beer. The dead yeast and hop sediment leave a lot of juiciness and almost creamy mouth feel. There are now unfortunately breweries that take shortcuts, such as using flour to cloud the beer or adding orange juice to crate the juiciness.
Find breweries known for hazies and u'll get a better idea of what they're supposed to be like. Mikkellar makes stellar ones. They definitely aren't for everyone though, you still might not like it at the end of the day. They were just a new "thing" for breweries to do and play around with, much like the new "Brut IPA" is becoming the new wave. At least in southern California.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Home Brew mobile app
Last edited:
couchsending
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2016
- Messages
- 3,032
- Reaction score
- 2,131
Actually that’s not the idea but unfortunately that’s what people think it needs to be which is why so many suck. The best ones have been spun out by many a lab to find very little yeast. And the haziness shouldn’t be what has the impact on mouthfeel.
Last edited:
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
No doubt. However this is supposed to be a style of IPA. As I’ve learned here from those who’ve responded many don’t understand what it should entail and do terrible things to achieve this haze. They’ve made a terrible rendition of the style, and I’m apparently not the only one that doesn’t get it when it comes to those examples. Heady Topper is one I’ve had and thought was good. It doesn’t rate high for me, but then I rate IPAs (other than British) on the same scale.
ChootchMcGooch
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2018
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
Interesting... I learned that from one of the cellarmen that work at stone brewing... And the best hazies I've had have had an immense amount of sediment at the bottom of the cans. But I am always looking to learn more. What makes them "hazy" then?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Home Brew mobile app
Andrew Hodgson
Well-Known Member
Why are we asking "Why" in the first place? It should be "Why not?" Isn't the point of the homebrew game to do whatever the fark you want regardless of what is hot on the market right now?
From what I understand it is adding the dry hops when the fermentation is still active, usually at high krauzen. This results in bio transformation of the hops that leaves the beer "hazy"
21B is a catchall category not a NEIPA specific category.
Ahem.
You consistently come here preaching this on a recurring basis, yet never post how they do it.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 64,951
- Reaction score
- 16,516
It's exactly the reason 21b was created as a category. 21b is not a "catchall category".
If you enter NEIPA into any other category, the judges will (or should, if they're a halfway knowledgeable judge) say it should've been entered in 21B. So, yes, it has a recognized BJCP category.
This is great. Go on.....
couchsending
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2016
- Messages
- 3,032
- Reaction score
- 2,131
Do your research... no one told me I’ve had to figure it out for myself through reading, understanding, and making slight tweaks to process every time.
What variable has an affect on bitterness and for some part haze that could be modified to affect both in a way that would benefit this style?
What variable has an affect on bitterness and for some part haze that could be modified to affect both in a way that would benefit this style?
No, it is not a NEIPA specific category. 21b includes Belgian IPA, Black IPA, Brown IPA, Red IPA, Rye IPA and White IPA. NEIPA has no specific place in the BJCP style. If you heard Gordon Strong actually speak about the subject you would hear him explain that 21b is a catchall to hold all the fast developing IPA sub styles like NEIPA. But it is not specifically for NEIPA.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 64,951
- Reaction score
- 16,516
How is 21B not specific?
Andrew Hodgson
Well-Known Member
LOL... because 21B includes Belgian, Black Brown, Red, Rye and White IPA. They are all specifically mentioned in the official 2015 BJCP style guidelines. Look them over. I've attached the PDF below. You know what you WON'T find listed? Take a guess.
HOWEVER! This was just posted today... literally between my last post and this one. An article that was just published an hour ago by Beersyndicate.com titled "The Six New Beer Styles of 2018". http://www.beersyndicate.com/blog/six-new-beer-styles-2018/
The first paragraphs state:
"It was revealed at the 2018 National Homebrew Conference by Gordon Strong, current president of the Beer Judge Certification Program, that six beer styles are on the verge of being officially canonized into the defacto authority on beer styles, the BJCP Beer Style Guidelines.
Technically these new beer styles aren’t exactly new, nor have they yet been formally inducted into the BJCP Beer Guidelines as fully-fledged beer styles because the guidelines are only revised every five years or so. This means that until the next revamp of the guidelines occurs, these “new” beer styles are considered “provisional” and may be subject to revision."
So the answer to NEIPA being an official BJCP style... which was the original statement I commented on... is no, it is not. And to answer my reply to you whether 21b is for NEIPA the answer is also no, it is not. 21b is for all those currently un-catagorized IPA variants.
https://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 64,951
- Reaction score
- 16,516
It's obvious you didn't even read the bjcp link description I posted for NEIPA that I posted the other day....
This isn't breaking news from today....
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
For sure. But then it’s not a good thing when what you’re left with is tainted, right? Kind of like a sour or some such.
I had no clue Heady Topper was a haze IPA. It has plenty of hop flavor/character and it’s not hard whatsoever to understand that it’s an IPA. But to make an IPA that has a hop character such as New Belgium’s version has one wondering what it’s supposed to be. The way the hop character is melded into the beer does not give one the impression of an IPA. It tasted more like a mistake. If some people like it that’s great. And that some don’t is typical. As many have stated they aren’t doing the style justice by doing what they are doing it would seem.
Ultimately, figuring New Belgium puts out descent beers, I assumed this was a properly made hazy IPA. Obviously there are ones out made that don’t make you wonder if it belongs in the IPA category.
@couchsending what type of sugar did you use? That's a nice creamy headed beer. Surprisingly so if using cane sugar which tends to thin and dry a beer out.
ApolloSimcoe
Well-Known Member
Heady is a hazy IPA although not extreme by todays standards. Greg and John created their first hazy beers at the VPB in the mid 90's. Fast forward to maybe 2003 or so to the Alchemist Pub where Heady premiered. It gains popularity with beer drinkers in NE. Other NE breweries follow suit but build on the haze and murk and the style gets more and more cloudy. Now in my opinion certain breweries just focused on the haze and not the flavor. (Hill Farmstead wasn't one of these, Shauns beers have a softer pillowy feel) It was a rush to see "How hazy can we get this beer?" so now you have beers in the style that are complete murk because thats what they thought the consumer wanted IMO). I dont believe that Greg and Johns main focus was to create the haziest brew, just ones that tasted the best.
Last edited:
Andrew Hodgson
Well-Known Member
I think, like plenty of threads here on HBT this is the crux of it. Subjectivity. What is a mistake or what is what it was "supposed" to be? And how can "the way the hop character is melded into the beer" not give the impression of an IPA? If these are the foundations for you thinking it is "tainted" I just think that is extreme phrasing. Tainted (to me) is you take a drink of the beer and have to spit it out or get sick or something not "my idea of the style they use to describe this beer is slightly different" or something along those lines. If Voodoo Ranger is the beer you are referencing I would challenge anyone to not recognize it as "hop forward" like an IPA even if you don't like the flavor etc.
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
A Pilsner is hop forward as well in a sense.
An IPA shouldn’t have a muddied hoppiness. In no other style of IPA have I encountered what New Belgium has done, and I’ve had a tremendous number of them. The flavors that dominate aren’t the hops. It’s all muddied with nothing defining it.
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
21B: Specialty IPA:
“
Overall Impression
Recognizable as an IPA by balance-a hop-forward, bitter, dryish beer-with something else present to distinguish it from the standard categories. Should have good drinkability, regardless of the form. Excessive harshness and heaviness are typically faults, as are strong flavor clashes between the hops and the other specialty ingredients.”
They failed in this regard. Maybe you haven’t tried it?
“
Overall Impression
Recognizable as an IPA by balance-a hop-forward, bitter, dryish beer-with something else present to distinguish it from the standard categories. Should have good drinkability, regardless of the form. Excessive harshness and heaviness are typically faults, as are strong flavor clashes between the hops and the other specialty ingredients.”
They failed in this regard. Maybe you haven’t tried it?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 64,951
- Reaction score
- 16,516
Andrew Hodgson
Well-Known Member
I have tried it and enjoy it very much, I just don't think a beer is a failure because you think it has hop flavor but it is "muddled", the same way it isn't the best beer in the world because I enjoy it. That is why these are silly things to discuss, but on HBT we are all sitting around in between brew days shootin' the breeze so here we sit.
OP
OP
rodwha
Well-Known Member
For sure. Every beer isn’t for everyone.
It just threw me for a loop with the cloudied flavors. It didn’t come across like every other (including the ones I greatly disliked) IPA where the hops are the star and maybe there’s a strong maltiness as well, or even a Belgian twist. As I pointed out it failed to have the hops shine unobstructed.
So, let me get this straight. NEIPA, or hazy IPA if you will, is a very young style, there's isn't any real history behind it but since it's become a trend everyone has jumped on and developed their take on it. It's popularity and the the fact that everyone makes one has prompted BJCP to define it with it's own category. This all makes sense. However, given the lack of history behind the style the only thing we have to base it's characteristics on is a sampling or average of what the industry has done with it over the past decade or so. As many have pointed out in the this thread, the average NEIPA is a murky muddled mess, sure some brewers are making an amazingly delicious beer with this style but it seems they are actually on the fringe and are NOT representative of the style whatsoever. Isn't that like me not liking sours so I brew a nice fresh West Coast IPA but call it a sour and say, "Yea, it tastes nothing like what the industry generally calls a sour, it actually tastes good".
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 64,951
- Reaction score
- 16,516
It's too bad that BJCP doesn't write up a comparison of closely related styles, nor commercial examples of said style.
Oh wait...
http://dev.bjcp.org/beer-styles/21b-specialty-ipa-new-england-ipa/
Oh wait...
http://dev.bjcp.org/beer-styles/21b-specialty-ipa-new-england-ipa/
Similar threads
