Haze in beer caused by rapid crashing

[Morrey]

Buddy who has moved from home brewer to pro brewer mentioned since I am now using a glycol chiller to be sure to step down the temps slowly. Says that he brings his system down slowly a few degrees per 8 hours to prevent haze in the finished beer. Suggested I do this as well especially on lagers crashing down to add finings for clarity. Anyone else think this is a valid point to follow?

 

[day_trippr]

Which point - to use finings, or to attenuate the crash rate? Or both?
I don't use finings but everything I've read says to introduce them to cold beer before carbonation.

As for rate of "crash", this amateur is skeptical of any benefit from slowing the rate.
Then again, my 10 gallon batches take ~40 hours to drop from dry-hop temps down to 34°F, so "crash" is clearly a relative term
Throw in a couple/few weeks of cold-carbonation and the beer is clear - with to-style exceptions...

Cheers!

 

[Morrey]

I believe since he moved to a pro status and now brewing to get beers online quickly for fast turn-around, he views getting the best and clearest beer the fastest way possible as the goal.

To me (and maybe you), I have a more relaxed attitude toward a finished product. I keep a decent pipeline so I am never purposely pushing hard for a beer to be done in a hurry. I add gelatin to some beers when cold before carbing, especially light lagers, but have found that given time in keg while cold and under gas, most any beer will eventually drop clear....even a Hefe/Wit clears slowly over time.

You are right...which point am I asking about? Specifically, I am searching to validate if slowly stepping down to cold temps is advisable to prevent haze? Does too rapid of a temperature crash "set" haze? I can drop temps of a 5.5G batch with my glycol chiller from 65F down to 35F in an hour or so. His response is no don't do that....you will set a haze in your beer. I was hoping others may say he has a valid point...or he may not be correct for that matter. I may even learn why this happens - if it in fact does.....

 

[Morrey]

Duplicate

 

[day_trippr]

Whoa! Now that's "crashing"! And that makes this more interesting.
I don't know how many folks will be able to provide testimony on either side of the question at that steep a temperature slope.
That amazing glycol rig that can compress a process step down from days to minutes puts you on a rather exclusive island...

Cheers!

 

[auburntsts]

Is there a formula or tool that you can use to determine how long it will take to "x" volume of wort (or equal amount of water as a proxy) from a starting liquid temp to a lower target liquid temp based upon a "y" ambient air temp?

IOW if I have 5 gal of wort sitting at 65*F, want to cool it to 40*F and the ambient cooling air temp is 35*F, how long will it take to cool the wort to the target?

 

[waldoar15]

I guess it's possible crashing it at that rate could set the haze by not letting those compounds slowly precipitate out.

 

[chris000]

Interesting one. I don't know if the rate of cooling has influence on chill haze, but I also would like to know - not that it really matters to me personally.
There are different types of haze. I think you talk about chill haze here
I thought of chill haze only as a problem of inadequate breaks or some barley that has more of certain proteins that lend themselves to it.
Either way, time takes care of it (or fining agents). Did your friend talk about the fining agents he is using and when he is adding them (shortly before crashing)?

 

[Morrey]

We had sort of a sketchy conversation since he had bar servers and customers asking questions while we chatted. He mentioned biofine as a fining agent he uses, so I'm assuming he adds in the agent after cooling.

My 7G FTSs BrewBucket offers very rapid cooling hooked to my Penguin Glycol Chiller. My 14G Ss Uni tank takes a bit longer due to volume, but in either, crash cooling is very rapid which is the point he is making....avoid crashing that fast. He offered to step crash about 5 degrees every few hours. Chill haze is what (I assume) to be the haze he is referring. Again, our conversation was interrupted often so many key questions were missed.

Anyway, just to be on the safe side, I decided to "step" crash my current lager. I never had any haze issues before, but then again, I have only had this new chiller since July and just getting the feel of it.

 

[Morrey]

Whoa! Now that's "crashing"! And that makes this more interesting.
I don't know how many folks will be able to provide testimony on either side of the question at that steep a temperature slope.
That amazing glycol rig that can compress a process step down from days to minutes puts you on a rather exclusive island...

Cheers!

I hadn't really thought much about the speed of crash time until I got this new Penguin Glycol Chiller in July. Along with FTSs cooling coils in the 7G Ss BrewBucket, cooling is phenomenally fast.

Prior to this, I simply had fermenters in freezers with Inkbird ATC's, so I never gave crashing speed much thought. Now I am challenged with learning how to modulate the cooling speed so problems won't arise.

 

[triethylborane]

Is there a formula or tool that you can use to determine how long it will take to "x" volume of wort (or equal amount of water as a proxy) from a starting liquid temp to a lower target liquid temp based upon a "y" ambient air temp?

IOW if I have 5 gal of wort sitting at 65*F, want to cool it to 40*F and the ambient cooling air temp is 35*F, how long will it take to cool the wort to the target?

Maybe newton's law of cooling. Its not going to satisfy the hyperanal überhomebrewer savant, (it does have significant limitations), but perhaps we could use it:

(dT/dt) = -k(T - Ta)

T2 = Ta + (T1 - Ta)e^-kt <---- solution


T1 = initial temp of liquid

T2 = temperature of the liquid at time t (must keep units of time lol)

Ta = ambient temp fridge, room, should be constant


What you want to determine:

Ta = 35f
T1 = 65f
T2 = 40f
t = time difference between T2 and T1
k: constant

You'll have to make observations to get your constant by measuring T2 after a known period of time.

So lets say the t between T2 is 52f after 30 minutes (caveat, not measured data):

Ta = 35f
T1 = 65f
T2 = 52f
t = 30 minutes
k = solve

T2 = Ta + (T1 - Ta)e^-kt
52 = 35 + (65 - 35)e^-30k
52 = 35 + 30e^-30k
17 = 30e^-30k
(17/30) = e^-30k
(30/17) = e^30k
1.76 = e^30k
ln(1.76) = ln(e^30k)
ln(1.76) = 30k
k = (ln(1.76))/30
k = 0.0189

or just use

k = (-1/t) * ln ((T2 - Ta)/(T1 - Ta))

k = (-1/30) * ln ((52 - 35)/(65 - 35)) = 0.0189

Ok so you have your constant k which is 0.0189, can move onto solving for t with a desired final temp (T2):

Ta = 35f
T1 = 65f
T2 = 40f
t = solve
k = 0.0189

T2 = Ta + (T1 - Ta)e^-kt

40 = 35 - (65 - 35)e^(-0.0189t)
40 = 35 - (30)e^(-0.0189t)
5 = 30e^(-0.0189t)
5/30 = e^(-0.0189t)
30/5 = e^(0.0189t)
6 = e^(0.0189t)
ln(6) = 0.0189t
1.792 = 0.0189t
t = 1.792/0.0189
t = ~95 minutes

Ive not used this but Ill check on this with a starter I need to cold crash. I have another starter of the same volume to make right afterwards so I can gather more data for accuracy and precision. Its obviously going to be problematic when using different volumes, vessels and ambient temps, but this is about as practical an answer for your question.

 

[mongoose33]

We had sort of a sketchy conversation since he had bar servers and customers asking questions while we chatted. He mentioned biofine as a fining agent he uses, so I'm assuming he adds in the agent after cooling.

My 7G FTSs BrewBucket offers very rapid cooling hooked to my Penguin Glycol Chiller. My 14G Ss Uni tank takes a bit longer due to volume, but in either, crash cooling is very rapid which is the point he is making....avoid crashing that fast. He offered to step crash about 5 degrees every few hours. Chill haze is what (I assume) to be the haze he is referring. Again, our conversation was interrupted often so many key questions were missed.

Anyway, just to be on the safe side, I decided to "step" crash my current lager. I never had any haze issues before, but then again, I have only had this new chiller since July and just getting the feel of it.

If you haven't had any haze issues before fast-crashing, then it doesn't sound like a valid concern. Maybe your friend has specific issues in his system/recipes/process that promotes haze unless he step-crashes.

However, I think we need a new descriptor for cooling the beer, as "slow" and "crash" don't seem to be consistent with each other....

 

[Morrey]

If you haven't had any haze issues before fast-crashing, then it doesn't sound like a valid concern. Maybe your friend has specific issues in his system/recipes/process that promotes haze unless he step-crashes.

However, I think we need a new descriptor for cooling the beer, as "slow" and "crash" don't seem to be consistent with each other....

Most of the beers I have made since i got this glycol chiller have been hazy (by design) due to the grist content. And of the few lagers I have produced, most have been dark lagers typical of a Schwarzbier. I am just starting a roll making some light lagers so my concerns shift to clarity and potential haze which may...or may not be caused by a steep/rapid temp drop.

Most pro-systems have a glycol jacket surrounding the tank. In comparison, my FTSs coils extend into the wort...not sure which system has more direct cooling contact and yields the fastest drop. Next time I visit the brewery, I'll ask a few more questions and get his opinion on the reasons haze may be set by a sudden temperature drop.