Having Trouble with IPA Flavors

[bodkincreek]

Hey guys. I'm relatively new to brewing. I've only been brewing about 2 years or so and I'm having some major issues with off flavors in the IPA's I brew.
I've brewed 3 IPA's in a row, all with overwhelmingly strong grassy flavors that have been extremely dry. The also come out VERY dark and hazy. The recipes I've done are the Orange Pale Ale recipe from this board, the zombie dust recipe from this board and the Northern Brewer Two Hearted Clone. All have had the same taste.
I've tried changing out tubing and cleaning all of my valves and equipment thoroughly. I've raised my mash temps and they all seem to ferment in the 60-65 degree range. I'm pretty stumped. The only thing I can think of is maybe my water?
Anything else I can look into? Anyone else had this problem and been able to find a solution? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[mdbrewer1]

How long are you dry hopping? Extended dry hopping times can lead to grassy/vegetal flavors. That would be the easiest place to start.

 

[Likefully]

Are you getting all the beer off the trub before fermenting? Too much hop material at the bottom of the fermenter can cause the grassy flavours.

 

[Psylocide]

Are you getting all the beer off the trub before fermenting? Too much hop material at the bottom of the fermenter can cause the grassy flavours.

What's this now?

 

[gotbags-10]

When you say they are dry are you referring to a low FG? If so what are your FG's? I recently had the same thing happen to me. 3 ips's in a row that finished super low. Turns out it was my fermentation bucket.

 

[khillian]

Great hoppy beers to me are the most difficult to brew, been brewing for 7 years and only recently have been able to produce great hoppy beer consistently.

First off, water, using tap or bottled? If tap water, are you filtering or using Campden tablets for chloromine treatment? Chlorine or chloromine is an quick way to ruin hoppy brew.

Also are you checking mash ph? Proper ph will setup the boil so the hops do not extract as many tannins and harsh bitter compounds. If your not checking at least use some of the brew water spreadsheets to predict.

In terms of dark color, are they dark pre boil? If they are getting darker I would have to think oxidation. Unlike dark malty beers which can take more oxidation, hoppy beers are extremely fragile. In my experience, a perfect recipe, water, boil can easily be ruined via sloppy racking or mishandling during bottling/kegging. This was part of my issues that helped me fix my hoppy beers.

How are you dry hopping and for how long?

It takes skill and mistakes to dial in any system, you will get there.

 

[bodkincreek]

Started out dry hopping for 7 days, then backed off to 5 days then to 3 days thinking that maybe the length of dry hopping was the problem. I usually dry hop in a cheese
Cloth to help minimize the mess in the fermenter.

In regards to dryness I mean taste wise. It leaves you're mouth feeling very dry. Usually I hit my fg's within a point or so.

I typically use tap water from my faucet. I don't do any water treatments at all. I'm not knowledgeable about water chemistry. I feel like I'd do more harm then good by trying to add treatments. I will say that on my last orange pale ale brew I changed the water to deer park spring water thinking maybe my water was the problem.

I also have never checked mash ph. Again, I'm not really knowledgeable about that kind of stuff.

In regards to color, I'd have to say it's usually pretty dark after the boil and gets darker after fermentation. I guess it could be oxidation? I will say that I agitate pretty vigorously when transferring from kettle to the fermenter. After fermentation though, I'm usually pretty gentle about it. I have a ss conical fermenter, so it usually transfers pretty gently.

It looks like I'm going to have to look into mash ph and water chemistry. Any recommendations on where to start learning this kind of stuff? Something dumbed down a bit?

 

[gotbags-10]

If you want something down and dirty as far as water goes for ipa's use treated(1/2 cambden tab) tap water for your mash. Then sparge with the bottled water. You want some of the minerals that tap water has to help buffer the ph during the mash. Bru'n water and brewers friend are great for adjusting water if you choose to go that route. Also Palmer's water book is great as well. Just take it slow with that book or your head will explode.:fro:

 

[Queequeg]

I found brun water knowledge page infinitely more useful than Palmer's book.

For an IPA I use very low mineral content bottled water which I then treat to get the Brun pale ale water profile. I then adjust pH separately with Phosphoric Acid.

I use a pH meter and calibrate before use in buffer at the temp the mash will be at, this way I don't need to chill mash samples and can adjust on the fly.

As for your problem, I'm not certain it's a pH issue. How do your pale ales and other pale beers turn out? If its a pH issue you would see the same issue in beers with similar grain bills.

The flavour you same to be describing sounds like Tannis. Which leads to the questions about your sparge process and trub seperation.

 

[Likefully]

What's this now?

Should have written - all the WORT off the trub.

 

[grathan]

You shouldn't do all grain beer with tap water without knowing mash PH. I spent a year brewing beer that I ended up dumping. Though I am on a well and the water is probably harder than most city tap water.

If you don't wanna buy a ph meter you could try adding some lactic acid or acid malt a little at a time to your strike water to see if the dryness improves any.

 

[richardtmorgan]

I had a brown ale, a british bitter and an ipa all brewed the same way. The ipa had an astringent taste (tanniny, grassy, mouth puckering, 'dry' maybe). The others were fine.

Fining the ipa with gelatin in the keg (1 pack gelatin, wait two days) sorted it out and left me a decent beer. I think it was hop matter making its way from the boil into the fermenter.

Since then I have used a 5 gallon paint strainer (very cheap, easy to clean, very re-usable) to line the fermenter when I fill it with chilled wort. I'm surprised how much hop matter it filters out. No more astringent taste with hoppy beers.

 

[bodkincreek]

Well, any types of beers that have alot of hop additions or dry hopping have the off flavor. I made sweet stout that didn't have any dryness or weird flavors at all. I usually sparge with 170 degree water and usually takes about 20-30 mins to sparge. As for trub separation, when I transfer from kettle to fermenter I run the wort through a counter flow chiller, into a funnel with a fine screen and the wort runs from the funnel right into the fermenter (this is usually how I airate my wort).

I thought it could be tannin extraction also. However, I never let my mash temp get above 170 degrees (except for my strike water addition). As far as I understand, you can only have tannin extraction at temps above 170 degrees, correct?

 

[bodkincreek]

You shouldn't do all grain beer with tap water without knowing mash PH. I spent a year brewing beer that I ended up dumping. Though I am on a well and the water is probably harder than most city tap water.

If you don't wanna buy a ph meter you could try adding some lactic acid or acid malt a little at a time to your strike water to see if the dryness improves any.

I guess I'll look into getting a PH meter and reading on mash PH.

 

[grathan]

Tannin extraction can also come from high mash PH. The stout didn't have the off flavor, but what about the Orange pale ale made with Deer Park water?

 

[2005STi]

You shouldn't do all grain beer with tap water without knowing mash PH. I spent a year brewing beer that I ended up dumping. Though I am on a well and the water is probably harder than most city tap water.

If you don't wanna buy a ph meter you could try adding some lactic acid or acid malt a little at a time to your strike water to see if the dryness improves any.

I wouldn't go that far. If your dark beers are turning out well it's likely your mash pH is too high for your pale beers. I would get Lactic acid and pH strips and adjust as necessary after mashing in. It takes me roughly 3-5 drops to get the pH down to a more acceptable mid to low 5.X. You could also start by swapping a few percent of your base malt with acidulated malt and see if the beer changes for the better.

 

[khillian]

I got this cheaper PH meter ~$15.00 bucks and the 2 buffer solutions, http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2015/03/reader-tip-ph-009-digital-ph-meter-12-43.html

Seems to work well, I also have the colorphast ph strips. If your going to stick with this hobby its worth the investment to dial in your system and water.

As for Mash PH prediction/acid/mineral calculation I have recently been using http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/ which has been accurate for my last 6 batches.

 

[Hopper5000]

Sounds like your IPA's are astringent if they are leaving your mouth dry. Might be from over sparging or your pH being too high as some have mentioned.

 

[Xpertskir]

Are you getting all the beer off the trub before fermenting? Too much hop material at the bottom of the fermenter can cause the grassy flavours.

This is absolutely false.


You use unfiltered tap water OP?

I could see some of your issues(dryness) coming from that, you could be describing chlorophenols.

I would highly discourage you from using unfiltered tap water. It could be causing your other off flavors as well. Are you on a well or municipal?



Edit: Brewing is all about isolating and removing variables, I suggest brewing a batch with store bought spring water and see what(if any) change occurs.

 

[bodkincreek]

I've been using municipal tap water from the faucet that is unfiltered.

I guess I could be over sparging? Most of the time, I don't hit my target OG. My efficiency is usually around 60-65%. I always seem to hit my volumes pretty closely.

Right now, I have the orange pale ale that I brewed with Deer Park Spring Water in primary, chugging away. I'll use this as a control to see if the flavor changes as compared to the IPA's that I've brewed. Does Deer Park post the water profiles for their water anywhere?

Thanks for all of the help. I bought the PH meter khillian posted a link too. I need to do a little bit of reading, but first I guess I need to find out what the profile of Deer Park water is so I can start there adjusting my mash PH.

 

[McKnuckle]

http://www.nestle-watersna.com/asset-library/documents/dp_eng.pdf

It's on page 4. Unfortunately it doesn't list alkalinity (carbonate or bicarbonate), but assume that's a small value like 10-15 or so.

As is typical with these reports, the mineral levels are quoted in a range. I'd just shoot for the middle of each range when plugging values into a water calculator.

 

[grathan]

If you're using municipal water it's pretty much guaranteed to have either chlorine or chloramine. Both of which taste disgusting in beer.

I think your gonna love the Deer park batch.

 

[Likefully]

This is absolutely false.

Absolutely false?

 

[basisforaday]

Absolutely false?

I agree that it's false. I've left many IPAs, maybe all of them on trub and they have never tasted grassy. Fermenting on trub is fine, don't think that is the problem here.

 

[Likefully]

I agree that it's false. I've left many IPAs, maybe all of them on trub and they have never tasted grassy. Fermenting on trub is fine, don't think that is the problem here.

2 against 1, i will have to take your word for it. The only time I fermented on a lot of trub there was a noticeable grassy flavour in the beer. The beer was still very drinkable, but I have since always left as much trub behind as possible and have never experienced grassy notes again.

 

[Yooper]

Well, any types of beers that have alot of hop additions or dry hopping have the off flavor. I made sweet stout that didn't have any dryness or weird flavors at all. I usually sparge with 170 degree water and usually takes about 20-30 mins to sparge. As for trub separation, when I transfer from kettle to fermenter I run the wort through a counter flow chiller, into a funnel with a fine screen and the wort runs from the funnel right into the fermenter (this is usually how I airate my wort).

I thought it could be tannin extraction also. However, I never let my mash temp get above 170 degrees (except for my strike water addition). As far as I understand, you can only have tannin extraction at temps above 170 degrees, correct?

Tannin extraction is more a function of mash and sparge pH than temperature.

I'd try one batch with RO water (reverse osmosis) water, to see if that fixes the issue. Check out the 'sticky' water primer in the brew science area, but the gist is to use RO water, 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride and a little acid (lactic acid or phosphoric acid or acid malt) and that's it. You can also add one teaspoon of gypsum for a bitter/hoppy beer. That will give you a blank slate, with a proper mash pH. If that fixes an IPA, then you know for certainty it's the water.

I agree that it's false. I've left many IPAs, maybe all of them on trub and they have never tasted grassy. Fermenting on trub is fine, don't think that is the problem here.

Yep, me too. I have a CFC and no way to really filter out break material and hops debris and I make about 15 IPAs a year. Never a grassy taste.

I think in this case it's due to a high mash pH and/or sparge and kettle pH.

 

[philipCT]

What Yooper said.

I use muni tap water too, but I've had Ward to a water analysis, and I use Bru'nwater to figure out how to salt for each recipe.

But more basic than that is adding a half-campden tablet per 10g to the water as soon as I draw it to get rid of chloramine. As previous posters have said, that'll ruin your beer quick.

Having said that, treated, my tap water is fantastic. For many brews my water chemistry is very minimal though I do use gypsum a lot for hoppy beers.

 

[Likefully]

Yep, me too. I have a CFC and no way to really filter out break material and hops debris and I make about 15 IPAs a year. Never a grassy taste.

.

This is different to what I have thought (and thought I experienced too) - so I am glad I challenged what i thought was conventional wisdom. I won't change my process (of leaving as much of the trub behind) though.

 

[bodkincreek]

Welp, good news. Just tapped the Orange Pale Ale this weekend and the beer wasn't dark or astringent. I still have a slight grassy flavor but that could have been a product of the amount of hops used to dry hop (2oz), the length I dry hopped (7 days) and maybe due to the temp I dry hopped at (approx. 70 degrees).
Either way, I had a much better result with this beer since I used bottled water. Hopefully my PH meter will be in before my next batch so I can start monitoring my mash PH. Thanks for all the help guys.