Guide me

[pricelessbrewing]

Cider will be better if you let it sit for sure, back sweetening helps with the aging time. Even then it'll still be better, and will "need" less back sweetening if you let it sit then back sweeten. I usually just drink it around 2-3 weeks of fermenting, 2 days cold crash, 1 day gelatin. I use pectic enzyme and lots of nutrients, ferment hot with saison yeast and it finishes clear in that time.

 

[Maylar]

Copy that. Thank you.

I am super impatient, how can I make the cider as fast as possible? (without seriously detracting from taste, or quality)

Maybe yeast nutrient, using a 1 micron filter when racking to secondary? The gal that I took airlock off and agitated reached lower gravity faster. Yeast need oxygen and nutrients to ferment correct? Call me crazy, but I want to crank out excellent cider as fast as possible. Maybe age for 1 week, 2 weeks max.

Cloudy cider is OK with me, as long as it doesn't affect taste. Considering filtration for sure.

My advice for best quality in shortest time:

Use yeast nutrient and pectic enzyme in every batch, per instructions on the packages. Add them up front when you pitch the yeast. You'll get strong fermentation in 12 hrs. You can agitate (shake) during the first 2 days if you like.

Nottingham typically will take 1.050 juice to 1.000 in 2 weeks at 70°F. Rack to secondary when it gets below 1.010 (I shoot for 1.008). Another 2 weeks and you'll have clear cider as good as cider gets without aging. For short term secondaries I have left the kind of head space that you have with no ill effects. Just be sure you sanitize everything thoroughly.

Doing small batches 1 gal at a time will yield 8-9 12 oz bottles per gallon. If you combine your 5 gallons into 4 when racking to secondary, you can top them up properly. That will allow you to bottle the first gallon when it's ready, and the others can sit without worry of oxidation.

Temperature matters - Nottingham likes 68°. Higher temps ferment faster, but the cider will taste weak. Alcohol level affects taste too. If you're not wanting to age the cider for months I highly recommend not increasing OG above 1.050.

Using pectic enzyme in primary will give you clear cider by he time secondary is done. No filtering is necessary. The minimum time here is 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, and 1 week to carbonate after bottling. Quality cider in short time is an oxymoron.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Appreciate that.

Its summer here and condo temps hover around 74-76*F. I wonder if it would make a big difference to be around 68-70*. Is the flavor stronger and cleaner at lower temps or something? I know you said the cider will be weak, please elaborate.

I was thinking to put a mesh micron aquarium fiter http://www.amazon.com/Aqueon-ProFlex-Micron-Filter-2-Pack/dp/B0036S2WVS over siphon after a few days in secondary (or...gasp....right out of primary) and basically have a drinkable (mostly clear) high alcohol cider in ~2 weeks.

So...10-15 days in primary, 0-2 days in secondary, back-sweeten to taste, bottle/keg still. Ill try it on my latest run seen below vvv

I am running a frankenstein experiement today:

SG 1.070 - Pasteur Champagne yeast, no starter.
-1 gal
juicy juice blend
1 can apple ras conc.
1/2 can apple berry blend conc.
~30 organic raisins

Shook vigorously to aerate. Then poured some in a cup, added yeast and raisins, swirled cup, pitched into 1 gal.

I want to see what I can get away with here. If most of the flavor can come from backsweetening, I wonder the point of using a $5 pack of notty and waiting 2+ weeks in primary, vs a $1 pack of red star champagne, and bottoming out in 7-10 days.

Seems most commercial cider makers use champagne yeast, acid, and AJC.

Basically, this will be the low cost, no fuss, high alcohol % cider

 

[Maylar]

Fermenting fast at warm temps with champagne yeast will strip out most of the apple flavor and aroma. What you get is a bland, tasteless cider that barely even smells like apples. Sweetening with AJC is one way to get some flavor back. Increasing alcohol level only makes it worse. The alcohol masks what little flavor is left, and gives the cider a "bite" that takes months to mellow out. Taste of course is subjective, and you may decide that your cider is the best ever. I hope that's true.

My best cider to date was a winter cider made from late season apples (low in nutrients), fermented at 65°F with S-04 ale yeast. It took a full 6 weeks to ferment even with added nutrients. The result had incredible flavor and my friends are still talking about it. I don't make summer ciders any more, unless I'm willing to age them for 4 months.

BTW a packet of Nottingham is good for 5 gallons. That breaks down to about 3/4 TSP per gallon.

Good luck with your experiments.

 

[ericbw]

Appreciate that.

Its summer here and condo temps hover around 74-76*F. I wonder if it would make a big difference to be around 68-70*. Is the flavor stronger and cleaner at lower temps or something? I know you said the cider will be weak, please elaborate.

I was thinking to put a mesh micron aquarium fiter http://www.amazon.com/Aqueon-ProFlex-Micron-Filter-2-Pack/dp/B0036S2WVS over siphon after a few days in secondary (or...gasp....right out of primary) and basically have a drinkable (mostly clear) high alcohol cider in ~2 weeks.

So...10-15 days in primary, 0-2 days in secondary, back-sweeten to taste, bottle/keg still. Ill try it on my latest run seen below vvv

I am running a frankenstein experiement today:

SG 1.070 - Pasteur Champagne yeast, no starter.
-1 gal
juicy juice blend
1 can apple ras conc.
1/2 can apple berry blend conc.
~30 organic raisins

Shook vigorously to aerate. Then poured some in a cup, added yeast and raisins, swirled cup, pitched into 1 gal.

I want to see what I can get away with here. If most of the flavor can come from backsweetening, I wonder the point of using a $5 pack of notty and waiting 2+ weeks in primary, vs a $1 pack of red star champagne, and bottoming out in 7-10 days.

Seems most commercial cider makers use champagne yeast, acid, and AJC.

Basically, this will be the low cost, no fuss, high alcohol % cider

You started off with "guide me," but now you're seeing what you can get away with."

You have a number of factors - time, yeast, temperature, gravity, kind of juice, cost, etc. You want short time, uncontrolled temp, and low cost. You can do that, but you can't have good cider that way. The only factors you seem willing to work on are the yeast and the cost.

Fermenting hot will almost always give you undesirable flavors. Many of those flavors can age out, but not all. I think it you could go to 74-75 for the actual cider temp, but if that's room temp, the cider could be in the 80s.

A 200 micron filter is like straining out the big chunks. Filters for beer/cider/wine are usually 5, 1, or even .5 microns.

When it comes to cost, if you use Nottingham (I wouldn't because I didn't like the results), you can save the yeast. So $5 for the first round is $0 for the next round. You can easily go 3-4 batches with reused yeast, and 6-7 if you're really clean and careful. You can do that with any yeast, but if you pick the best one, you will get the results you want.

Most commercial ciders are probably filtered if they are going for speed. Not with a 200 micron filter.

And most people will say that if you have a pipeline, then you don't need to worry about speed.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

BTW a packet of Nottingham is good for 5 gallons. That breaks down to about 3/4 TSP per gallon.

Good luck with your experiments.

Thanks. I do use 1/5 packet per 1 gallon.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

You started off with "guide me," but now you're seeing what you can get away with."

You have a number of factors - time, yeast, temperature, gravity, kind of juice, cost, etc. You want short time, uncontrolled temp, and low cost. You can do that, but you can't have good cider that way. The only factors you seem willing to work on are the yeast and the cost. I'm willing to work on all factors.

Fermenting hot will almost always give you undesirable flavors. Many of those flavors can age out, but not all. I think it you could go to 74-75 for the actual cider temp, but if that's room temp, the cider could be in the 80s.I agree, I was thinking about a DIY swamp cooler for now, or investing in some type of fridge. I want to make the best cider I can. I just dont want to wait for months.

A 200 micron filter is like straining out the big chunks. Filters for beer/cider/wine are usually 5, 1, or even .5 microns. I later read under 10 microns will filter out 99% of yeast. Looking into the right filter to put over racking cane, filter right out of primary and go directly to keg then force carb. Save a few weeks right there, as secondary is really just a clearing vessel, correct?

When it comes to cost, if you use Nottingham (I wouldn't because I didn't like the results), you can save the yeast. So $5 for the first round is $0 for the next round. You can easily go 3-4 batches with reused yeast, and 6-7 if you're really clean and careful. You can do that with any yeast, but if you pick the best one, you will get the results you want. True. Im going to order gervins ale yeast in bulk ~$2 a pack

Most commercial ciders are probably filtered if they are going for speed. Not with a 200 micron filter.

And most people will say that if you have a pipeline, then you don't need to worry about speed.

Yeah. I like to do things as fast as I can while maintaining quality. If I can filter when I rack directly from primary to keg, then I can backsweeten and have a possibly delicious very drinkable cider in 2-3 weeks. Thats all im saying. Maybe not the best way to go, but im not aging for months. To each their own

Edit: I bought a probe thermometer. Ferm temps were 73°F interior temps are 75°F. Maybe I can point a fan at them and keep them wet on outside (wet tshirt or rag). Is it possible this will drop me to 68ish? Thanks.

 

[ericbw]

Yeah. I like to do things as fast as I can while maintaining quality. If I can filter when I rack directly from primary to keg, then I can backsweeten and have a possibly delicious very drinkable cider in 2-3 weeks. Thats all im saying. Maybe not the best way to go, but im not aging for months. To each their own

Edit: I bought a probe thermometer. Ferm temps were 73°F interior temps are 75°F. Maybe I can point a fan at them and keep them wet on outside (wet tshirt or rag). Is it possible this will drop me to 68ish? Thanks.

Yes, the swamp cooler should lower your temps pretty well, esp if you add ice packs to the water and use a fan.

Look up filter set ups that use a water filter housing. That's what I just set up, and it cost less than $50. You have to jump between kegs. That will cut down your time. I fermented 4 weeks, filtered and backsweetened, and it's carbing now. Prob 6 weeks total and I'm not expecting anything great.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Thanks. Eric.

You know, im hitting 1.010 in a week or so w/ nottingham @ 72°F, so Im wondering how y'all ferment in primary for much longer than that without bottoming out and stripping most apple flavor. Im pretty new at this though.

Id like to go from pitch to glass in optimally 3 weeks, 4 max. Will I be sacrificing that much quality in doing so?

I backsweetened 7 day old notty and it was delicious and very drinkable @ ~5.5%. I guess im just trying to find a happy medium between speed and quality.

Inline filter sounds good, im thinking for me right now, of just putting a 1 micron filter sock on my racking cane when transferring to secondary and or tertiary vessel.

 

[ericbw]

Thanks. Eric.

You know, im hitting 1.010 in a week or so w/ nottingham @ 72°F, so Im wondering how y'all ferment in primary for much longer than that without bottoming out and stripping most apple flavor. Im pretty new at this though.

Id like to go from pitch to glass in optimally 3 weeks, 4 max. Will I be sacrificing that much quality in doing so?

I backsweetened 7 day old notty and it was delicious and very drinkable @ ~5.5%. I guess im just trying to find a happy medium between speed and quality.

Inline filter sounds good, im thinking for me right now, of just putting a 1 micron filter sock on my racking cane when transferring to secondary and or tertiary vessel.

Once it "bottoms out," it's done. You can leave it for a year, and it won't strip the apple flavor more than if you left it a month. (Note: not advisable. Most people would rack every 1-2 months with sulfate during that time.)

If you want to stop the fermentation at 1.010 by racking and chilling, that will leave you with some sweetness. But it's tricky to catch it at the right moment, I guess. I would bet that the yeast is not done, and will continue to slowly eat the sugar until it gets to 1.000 or lower. If it does that in the bottle, it will explode, sending shards of glass flying in your face (exaggerated worst case scenario). It will never be shelf stable, and even refrigerated, the yeast sometimes continues to to work.

I can't remember this whole thread. Do you keg or bottle? I don't know if you'll get enough suction to effectively filter through a 1 micron sock.

The happy medium between speed and quality is cost. You can filter enough to reduce the time it takes to end up with a quality result. Good, fast, cheap - pick two.

As for stripping the apple flavor, I would reserve judgement. Adding sugar will bring out some apple flavor (especially using AJ concentrate for the sugar). Carbonation also adds a different flavor and texture. So the fermented juice is really just a base that you build on.

Someone mentioned saison yeast. If you like saison, you can ramp it up to 80 degrees and the yeast will cover other off flavors.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Thank you Sir!

I am scouring craigslist for a used kegerator and Co2 setup for force carbing in 1 gallon kegs. A little unorthodox, but Im working with 1 gal batches while I experiment.

As far as stabilizing the final product..I am leaning towards chemical over filtration. Ie. Campden tab + K sorbate (or another preservative) before force carbing and serving.

I'm worried about this causing off flavors in the end product, I guess only one way to find out though!

Also considering heat pasteurizing w/ the dishwasher. I dont know whats best/easiest.

Ill have to give the filter sock on racking cane a shot, maybe ill try 5 or 10 microns just to clear it up a bit. So cold crash primary at target FG, and then rack w light filter onto campden/ksorbate, backsweeten to taste, force carb, then drink.

Open to all suggestions

Edit: Left jug is berry blend w champagne yeast, then 1.008 AJC w notty, then aging AJC notty on right

 

[Maylar]

Thanks. Eric.

You know, im hitting 1.010 in a week or so w/ nottingham @ 72°F, so Im wondering how y'all ferment in primary for much longer than that without bottoming out and stripping most apple flavor. Im pretty new at this though.

Id like to go from pitch to glass in optimally 3 weeks, 4 max. Will I be sacrificing that much quality in doing so?

I backsweetened 7 day old notty and it was delicious and very drinkable @ ~5.5%. I guess im just trying to find a happy medium between speed and quality.

Inline filter sounds good, im thinking for me right now, of just putting a 1 micron filter sock on my racking cane when transferring to secondary and or tertiary vessel.

For predictable, reliable results I suggest that you follow the established protocols and not try to rush your cider for the sake of gaining a week. You'll be much happier in the long run.

Use yeast nutrient and pectic enzyme. Ferment to below 1.010 and rack off the lees to secondary. At that point you can experiment with flavor additives if you like. Let secondary finish to wherever the yeast will take it. With pectic enzyme your cider will clear all by itself, no filtering required.

Sweeten, bottle, keg, whatever.. you've read about your options already. In 4 weeks you can have clear drinkable cider at 6.25% ABV (starting with 1.050).

Ale yeasts will leave some apple flavors behind if you don't crank them at high temps. S-04 is better than Notty in that regard. I've been sweetening / priming with FAJC and adding a touch (1/4 tsp) of apple flavoring from Nature's Flavors at bottling time. I get very tasty cider in 4-5 weeks.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Thanks Maylar. I hear you on just using traditional procedures. Probably better to get those down first and then tinker to reduce time.

For carbonation im leaning towards the low cost option to get my feet wet. Maybe just carb in 2 or 3 liter soda bottles and then refridgerate. Pouring when desired. I just need to get my hands on a co2 tank, regulator, and parts.

http://m.instructables.com/id/Re-charge-your-Flat-2-Liter-Sodas/?ALLSTEPS

Thoughts? Thanks gents

 

[Maylar]

Doing 1 gallon batches is an advantage in that you bottle 8-9 12 oz bottles from one jug (after secondary). You can add sugar to sweeten and carbonate, then throw 'em in the fridge when they're ready. Rather than guessing at carb levels, I made up a couple of carbonation monitors that fit a 12 oz soda bottle. Check out the 2nd page of this thread for details:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525085&page=2

I also have carbonater caps and a small CO-2 tank but I don't use them much any more. I get better results bottle conditioning. But check my thread on that here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=509733

 

[ericbw]

Look at Keg Connection and Keg Outlet. They both have good set ups that use a paintball tank for CO2. They run about $100. You can use that with a carbonator cap. They'll let you configure things so you get what you need instead of what's in a standard "package." In other words, you don't need a liquid QD, beer line, and picnic tap; you need a carbonator cap. It might even come in cheaper that way.

Longer term, I would consider a 2.5 or 3 gallon keg. You can find them used for about the same price as a 5 gallon. I got 3 gallon beat up pin locks for $30 each, I think. (slowly converting them to ball locks with PRV on the lid). New 2.5 gallons cost about $100, but there might be sales where they are cheaper.

I started with a 2.5 gallon keg and the paintball tank/regulator. I only recently got a 10 pound CO2 tank. I was running 4 kegs on the paintball tank at one time. It goes pretty fast that way, but it does work.

As for chemical stabilizing, that should work. I especially think if you bottle pasteurize in the dishwasher or stovetop, you'd be good. I would probably do both. Some people say they can taste the chemicals, but who knows.

Be sure to sanitize the filter sock when you're racking.

Maylar is right about following the established protocols. You get better results when you try it the "right" way first, then tweak one part. You'll get to your desired outcome quicker that way than trying to tweak multiple factors at once.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

10-4. Im just waiting on this f****** heritage blend concentrate. Im ready to brew some award winners over here, 5 gallon pail of the stuff is otw. Should make ~15 gallons and be higher quality since its made for hard cider (heritage varieties and high tannins)

Super pumped to run some experiments with this AJC and N-ham.

Ive chosen raw sugar (turbinado, sugarintheraw) as my sweetener. Best taste, mouthfeel IMO

Chose lemon juice over acid (adds another layer of flavor as well as bite/ tartness- IMO)

The old orchard ajc + notty that is ~30 days old and its greatly improved! Alcohol taste is more rounded, and more pronounced wetter apple flavors. Where is the point of diminishing returns with aging though?

Stealing your ideas for carbonation monitoring Maylar

 

[ericbw]

10-4. Im just waiting on this f****** heritage blend concentrate. Im ready to brew some award winners over here, 5 gallon pail of the stuff is otw. Should make ~15 gallons and be higher quality since its made for hard cider (heritage varieties and high tannins)

Super pumped to run some experiments with this AJC and N-ham.

Ive chosen raw sugar (turbinado, sugarintheraw) as my sweetener. Best taste, mouthfeel IMO

Chose lemon juice over acid (adds another layer of flavor as well as bite/ tartness- IMO)

The old orchard ajc + notty that is ~30 days old and its greatly improved! Alcohol taste is more rounded, and more pronounced wetter apple flavors. Where is the point of diminishing returns with aging though?

Stealing your ideas for carbonation monitoring Maylar

Some people rack for months and then age, but I guess most cider would peak within 2 years.

I had one last year that peaked around 4 months, but it still had yeast - no chemicals, filter, or pasteurization.

When you say 30 days old, you mean after bottling?

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

^^^30 days old from pitch.

Cold crashed another gallon @ 1.004 today. OG 1.060. 10 days from pitch, nham, raisins, store brand ajc. Alcohol taste is there a bit, could use a little aging and back-sweetening, but still quite good

Bidding on CO2 setup currently, already bought the tire pressure fittings from HDepot. Looking into oxygenating w/ 02 and airwand. I hear good things.

Do you guys think malic acid makes a better apple cider than acid blend or lemon juice?

 

[ericbw]

^^^30 days old from pitch.



Cold crashed another gallon @ 1.004 today. OG 1.060. 10 days from pitch, nham, raisins, store brand ajc. Alcohol taste is there a bit, could use a little aging and back-sweetening, but still quite good



Bidding on CO2 setup currently, already bought the tire pressure fittings from HDepot. Looking into oxygenating w/ 02 and airwand. I hear good things.



Do you guys think malic acid makes a better apple cider than acid blend or lemon juice?

Never used malic acid but acid blend would be better than lemon juice. I think cider is usually tart enough, but benefits from tannin. Some people use teabags for that.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Brewed 5 gals today-

OG ranged from 1.070-1.090
-High end AJC
-Notty
-0xygen

Used starter. Infused that w/ 02 also.

Trying some variations in raising gravity w/ AJC vs Raw sugar vs dextrose. Ran a can of blueberry pie filling (tasted amazing before pitch) and a gal w/ apple pie filling (also tasted fantastic. Pectic enzyme in these two.

Skipped the raisins, but yeast nutrient in the mail. I wonder if they're really needed...

Pointed air vent at 1 gals, and misted them w/ water, hoping this will drop temp down from 72 -> 68°F

Dextrose mixes so much easier but I feel raw sugar will taste better.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Good on you man. Keep us posted.

Have you tried a saison yeast yet? Give it a shot in your next side by side.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Thanks. Will do.

Ill try a saison. Any recommendations? Belgian?

7 hrs in and im getting overflow! I
heard this can happen w/ O2 supplementation (aggressive fermentations)

I hope the O2 and starter will help the notty attenuate fully. Then backsweetwning and aging experiments!

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

18 hours after pitch. Overflowing!

I ordered some himalayan sea salt. Seeing if I can make a hangover free brew (or at least reduce severity) any other recommendations?

 

[ericbw]

18 hours after pitch. Overflowing!

I ordered some himalayan sea salt. Seeing if I can make a hangover free brew (or at least reduce severity) any other recommendations?

That kind of overflow is pretty normal. Use a blow off tube.

What is the desk with Himalayan salt?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I use Belle saison for all my ciders, but have heard good things with 3711 too.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

That kind of overflow is pretty normal. Use a blow off tube.

What is the desk with Himalayan salt?

Worddd. I just poured a bit out for now.

By desk I think you meant deal. Looking to reduce hangover effects. Himilayan sea salt has electrolytes and trace minerals. Also looking at adding hemp seeds.

I need to buy a minifridge soon too. Gah.

I use Belle saison for all my ciders, but have heard good things with 3711 too.

Belle saison! Whats it like. Ill try it out.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Belle saison seemed to leave more apple flavor behind, ferments really quick, and seems to me to have a bit more complexity than the batches I did with nottingham/s05 etc. Also I can ferment in my 72-75F apartment without any issues.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Ok cool.

SG is down to 1.028 after 5 days. I developed Rhino Farts from the 2 gallons that were above 1.080 (1.090 +1.085) I immediately boiled and mashed organic raisins and added them to all gals. My yeast nutrient still hasn't arrived in the mail. I also hit them all with another small shot of Oxygen.

Should I toss these or can I reduce the sulfur smell enough? It's gotten better, but still noticeable.

From what I have read, "rhino farts" are caused by stressed yeast. In my case, I gave them a strong start and tons of O2 but not enough nutrients. Temps were a little high at 72*F as well.

In the future I will use a saison yeast, or keep lower temps, and add yeast nutrient. I am pumped to taste 02 infused cider. still searching for CO2 setup as well.

Can anyone point me in the direction of free ebook on brewing cider and advanced cider brewing? Thanks all!

edit: any suggestions on an electrolyte source besides salt that I can add to cider? I was thinking coconut water but its pricy.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

I went DIY on a cooling system. Super inexpensive and works well. I placed each gal in a paper plate filled with some water and wrapped in a paper towel or two napkins. The napkins wick better. Pointed a fan on low at them, which after a few hours dropped liquid temp from 72*F to 63*F! (The water at the bottom was almost all gone in about 6 hrs)

Now I can keep using Nottingham and hopefully next batch keep it 65-68*F, and add yeast nutrient. Looking forward to that!