Guide me

[SonsOfLiberty]

Gents,

Started my second batch of cider on 7/1 IG 1.60, 1.60, 1.70. 4 cans of Walmart brand FAJC per gallon (almost too sweet) trying 1.50 can old orchard FAJC to see if its worth the extra .50 per can.

FAJC distilled water and Nottingham. Day 4 today, SG already @ 1.36.

What I need help with is making a delicious cider that is scaleable if I ramp up production here in the south. No access to orchards so FAJC will have to suffice for a juice source, right?

Planning to let it bottom out, rack to secondary and backsweeten with juicy juice apple juice! Adding acid blend, stevia, and tannin until desired product is achieved.

Looking for guidance. I think im on the right track but cant hurt to seek advice.

Last pic is back of stella bottle. How hard could it be to make a better product?

 

[Maylar]

Please tell us you've misprinted those numbers and 1.60 is actually 1.060 ?

And are you intending to carbonate this?

 

[ericbw]

You're on the right track, but it can be very hard to make a better product! To make sweet, carbonated cider, you need to ferment dry and backsweeten, then carbonate. Probably need to force carb, so that you can leave some sweetness.

The backsweetening is where you're going to make it interesting. The other thing that we've found has a nice effect is adding tannin to give it something more substantial. Not a flavor as much as how it feels in your mouth.

 

[bernardsmith]

Don't know that I would use distilled water. Distilled water has had all minerals removed and yeast - like any living organism - need minerals. Better might be good spring water... and acid blend includes acids that are not typically found in apples. You might want to focus on malic acid IF the cider in fact needs more bitterness... but you can only know that by tasting.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Please tell us you've misprinted those numbers and 1.60 is actually 1.060 ?

And are you intending to carbonate this?

Yes. 1.060 LOL. Yes optimally I'd like to carbonate. Contemplated leaving it still as makes things easier but...rather go semi sweet semi dry naturally carbonated, but not sure if worth it. Im leaning towards kegging and force carbing for sure. Not steel, but the cheaper disposable kegs for distribution.

You're on the right track, but it can be very hard to make a better product! To make sweet, carbonated cider, you need to ferment dry and backsweeten, then carbonate. Probably need to force carb, so that you can leave some sweetness.

The backsweetening is where you're going to make it interesting. The other thing that we've found has a nice effect is adding tannin to give it something more substantial. Not a flavor as much as how it feels in your mouth.

Thank you. Been experimenting with backsweetening w/ store brand AJC, stevia and acid blend. Just ordered tannin, itll be here tomorrow! Wine tannin is fine right?

Don't know that I would use distilled water. Distilled water has had all minerals removed and yeast - like any living organism - need minerals. Better might be good spring water... and acid blend includes acids that are not typically found in apples. You might want to focus on malic acid IF the cider in fact needs more bitterness... but you can only know that by tasting.

Thanks. I thought distilled was better since it's sterilized though, but I'm new to this..

Experimented w/ backsweetening last night w an earlier batch, made a very drinkable smooth cider @ 8% but it could definitely be better. Learned a lot.

Small amount of acid really gave it bite in the beginning. Sweetener (stevia, or AJC) gave it more body, i feel like im missing something to pull it together and finish clean (tannin?)

Also, is there a way to round out the flavor? I feel like it should be shaped like an egg. Gentle bite leading up to nice smooth peak before it slowly drops off and leaves a nice tartness making you want more, if that makes sense.

 

[bernardsmith]

I suspect the lack of rich mouthfeel (the body) comes from the apples that make up the concentrate. Cider makers tend to use varieties of apples that lend themselves to make cider rather than apple juice. Some apples are naturally more tart (too tart to eat) while others are very tannic rich (crab apples, for example). Some apples have more fruit to water than others and so my guess is that the manufacturer of the concentrate is making the concentrate for purposes other than cider making. If you have no access to orchards than can supply juice for cider making (and even up here in apple country, not every orchard - read very few orchards - grow the apples you need to make a good cider) then perhaps you might want to focus on the kinds of fruits that your neck of the woods really knows how to grow... Your cider may be the best that can be made with the kind of fruit (or processed juice) that is available... and - for example - increased body might require maceration of the fruit with the skins - and your manufacturer (I use that word deliberately) may have no interest in allowing the fruit to sit on the skins for any length of time... They may want a product that is like a car or a computer - identical from one batch to the next whereas the sugar content, the water content etc of an apple from the same tree will vary from season to season and from the position of the apple on the tree and from tree to tree... In other words, what you have with real cider is not engineered consistency but organic difference that the cider maker uses and embraces.

All that said, you might experiment using less water to dilute the concentrate . That will up the ABV but it will also mean that you are using more fruit per gallon... and less water. Water simply dilutes flavor - and dilution of flavor is (IMO) never a good thing when it comes to wine making.

 

[ericbw]

What disposable kegs are you referring to? And what kind of distribution?

A couple of questions...

How many batches of fermented anything have you made before?

You said at the beginning, "How hard can it be to make a better product" than Stella Cidre. What is it about Stella that is not up to snuff?

Is there a cider that you like and would use as a standard for evaluation?

Carbonation is a tricky thing, so you might want to nail down the still version of this, then carbonate and see how it does carbonated.

 

[Takuie]

if you need more body/mouthfeel. Add a cup of moderately chopped raisins per gallon about 3-4 days after initial fermentation has slowed and/or after racking into secondary (if you rack to secondary). White raisins would work best since it is a lighter colored must to begin with. The raisins will add body, and a lil more sugar for your yeasties to chew on as well.. I've been adding raisins to my wine must for years whenever making wine from fruit juice.

Oh yea, one more thing, I rarely use distilled water since it is stripped of all minerals. Using spring water will make your yeast very happy in the beginning stages as well as enhance the flavoring of what you are fermenting.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Bernardsmith Thank you for that. This batch I have now has 4 cans of AJC per gal w/ IG of ~1.60. Im hoping it will have more aplle flavor and body. The only fruit here in FL thats everywhere is probably Oranges, I wonder how that would taste..

ericbw Theres a local distributer here that will accept my product for distribution if its something they like. Im still far from reaching a sellable product, but I like to plan everything out. Something like KeyKegs, or the sythetic plastic like material w/ a bag inside type of keg. (open to using steel also)

Only done a few batches of anything, but was an avid agriculturalist so I pick it up fast.

Stella is ok, I just want to create something around 8% that is unique and delicious. Differentiated from the competition.

Reds just came out w their 8% apple ale, its pretty solid. Id like to be in that category, but better. Maybe something crazy like a hard berry cider. B****es love berry cider. lol

Takuie I will try the raisins. Heard good things. Will also switch to UV treated spring water jugs for my 1 gal experiments

As an aside, I just bought several concentrates to experiment w/ backsweetening to hopefully find that holy grail everyone will love. Berry blend, passionfruit, grape, fruitpunch, etc.

Leaning towards a still product first, then carbonate from there if needed/desired.

 

[bernardsmith]

Wine from oranges can be quite fine. It can be very tart so you may need to address that issue. I've made some orange wine with chocolate (cocoa) which turned out fairly good.

But you say that there is a local distributor who is willing to sell your cider? Whoa Nelly! I think both you and that distributor may need to be a little careful. There are quite serious state and federal restrictions that apply to anyone who produces alcohol for sale and that applies to cider - I am not certain but in most states the process can take a considerable amount of time and money to clear all the hurdles - and that is quite separate from the need to satisfy all health regulations involved with anyone involved with food manufacturing. You may want to discuss your plans with a lawyer... and an accountant

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Wine from oranges can be quite fine. It can be very tart so you may need to address that issue. I've made some orange wine with chocolate (cocoa) which turned out fairly good.

But you say that there is a local distributor who is willing to sell your cider? Whoa Nelly! I think both you and that distributor may need to be a little careful. There are quite serious state and federal restrictions that apply to anyone who produces alcohol for sale and that applies to cider - I am not certain but in most states the process can take a considerable amount of time and money to clear all the hurdles - and that is quite separate from the need to satisfy all health regulations involved with anyone involved with food manufacturing. You may want to discuss your plans with a lawyer... and an accountant

You are probably right, and maybe I am putting the cart before the horse in even worrying about potential distribution. The distributor requires proper licensing of course.

My focus is to create a delicious, hard (~8-10% alc), differentiated, scaleable cider product.

 

[Ghunter0815]

I'm with Bernard there. If making/selling beer/wine/mead/cider were a simple and money friendly process, we'd all be doing it and flood the market. But there is some serious red tape that needs to be worked through before anything can hit the streets.

I'd recommend the same thing. Have someone look into the legal and financial requirements before going whole hog on distribution.

Until then, it sounds like you have a good starting cider to work with.

Also, I know Strawberries are also an abundant fruit in Florida, depending where you are. Might be an interesting addition.

 

[MindenMan]

I make a lot of hard cider, and have learned (more than) a few things along the way. IMO "mineral" water tastes better to me than spring water, so if I am building fermentable cider from water and concentrate, I sometimes use this method. Due to your making cider by the gallon (as I do) buy a few different apples at the store and grate 1/2 of an apple into one batch and a whole apple in another batch. Also try different apples grated into "plain" cider to add mouth feel, tannin, acid, etc. I don't see your mention of aging any of the hard ciders you have made; aging adds a lot to ciders especially the higher ABV styles. I also make mixed fruit ciders when inexpensive or free "gleaned" fruit is available. If you read any of my other posts you will see I make mostly applejack, so my "ciders" are above 18% ABV before they get frozen, and need months of aging to be show/share worthy.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

I'm with Bernard there. If making/selling beer/wine/mead/cider were a simple and money friendly process, we'd all be doing it and flood the market. But there is some serious red tape that needs to be worked through before anything can hit the streets.

I'd recommend the same thing. Have someone look into the legal and financial requirements before going whole hog on distribution.

Until then, it sounds like you have a good starting cider to work with.

Also, I know Strawberries are also an abundant fruit in Florida, depending where you are. Might be an interesting addition.

10-4. Ill focus on making a quality cider first.

I make a lot of hard cider, and have learned (more than) a few things along the way. IMO "mineral" water tastes better to me than spring water, so if I am building fermentable cider from water and concentrate, I sometimes use this method. Due to your making cider by the gallon (as I do) buy a few different apples at the store and grate 1/2 of an apple into one batch and a whole apple in another batch. Also try different apples grated into "plain" cider to add mouth feel, tannin, acid, etc. I don't see your mention of aging any of the hard ciders you have made; aging adds a lot to ciders especially the higher ABV styles. I also make mixed fruit ciders when inexpensive or free "gleaned" fruit is available. If you read any of my other posts you will see I make mostly applejack, so my "ciders" are above 18% ABV before they get frozen, and need months of aging to be show/share worthy.

Ok thank you. Maybe ill try some crab apples, or whatever heirloom variety I can get.

Just mixed some berry blend FAJC into my 6.5% bland watery cider. It was delicious, still lacking body and "thickness" but very drinkable.

Ive been getting SG of 1.01 or 1.000 in 7-10days, racking into secondary for another week and then experimenting/drinking. Open to all suggestions.

 

[ericbw]

You are probably right, and maybe I am putting the cart before the horse in even worrying about potential distribution. The distributor requires proper licensing of course.



My focus is to create a delicious, hard (~8-10% alc), differentiated, scaleable cider product. Maybe I am crazy for wanting to expand so fast.



Anyway, found a reliable source of Treetop Apple Juice Concentrate in 5 gal pails and 50 gal drums.



I attached a screenshot of the email, they have a heritage blend thats made for making cider. I am wondering if its worth it to use this Treetop blend over store brand FAJC, or will the difference be negligible..What do you guys think?

You're totally putting the cart before the horse.

First make 1 good batch of cider like you like it. Then you have something to scale.

To try different things, you need to mix up the yeast, sugar, and juice blends a little more.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Agreed. There's a reason people do test batches.

Make some 1 gal variants, try some different yeasts out then see what you like.
Try different amounts of sweetness, and different juices to backsweeten with. I've done apple, apple-cherry, cherry honey, apple raspberry, blueberry pomengranate, and just honey. The blueberry pomengranate was not very good, but the raspberry was, and of course cherry.



I'm partial to cherry and apple cyser, I just mixed up a batch earlier. Took 4 gallons of apple juice and 2 cans of APJC og should be around 1.060-1.065 and I expect the fg to end up around 1.003 in about two weeks. Then I'll backsweeten with some cherry concentrate and honey.

 

[MindenMan]

IMHO, yeast selection can (is) every bit as important as the juice/blends you use. I mean that some yeasts leave a higher F.G., some yeasts like the Trappist Ale Yeast develop incredible flavors during fermentation; if you have never tried "Crispin The Saint" hard cider, I believe it is worth buying at least one bottle. Some yeast are Malolactic Acid Fermenting when given time in the bottle, bring about another layer of flavor and mouth feel to your cider. I will admit I wish I knew more about making ciders than I presently do, so I will be in trial-and-error mode for a while to come. If you are not familiar with "Yooper", she has been making ciders and fruit wines for decades, is a solid source of info, and is always willing to help anyone who asks.

 

[ericbw]

10-4. Ill focus on making a quality cider first.



Ok thank you. Maybe ill try some crab apples, or whatever heirloom variety I can get.

Just mixed some berry blend FAJC into my 6.5% bland watery cider. It was delicious, still lacking body and "thickness" but very drinkable.

Ive been getting SG of 1.01 or 1.000 in 7-10days, racking into secondary for another week and then experimenting/drinking. Open to all suggestions.

Sweetness will bring out some of the flavor - just like how mint tea with sugar tastes more minty than without sugar. If it is bland, then acid or tannin (or both) will help to add complexity.

When you ferment it dry, you basically have a really thin and almost flavorless base to build on. But as you add some things to it, the natural flavor comes back out. Sweetening with FAJC means that you're using sugar that tastes like apples (or berries), which is good.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Thanks guys!

Just added a small amount of tannin to a sample glass of fermented 8% martinellis, backsweetened w/ some juicy juice. Pretty good. The tannin definitely adds "grip" or a nice texture if you will. Im getting a sweeter end product with a fuller body, then w acid and tannin and backsweetening I am making some delicious cider.

I want to get the best concentrate source for my cider.

As far as yeasts, the Nottingham smells fruity and almost drinkable at just 7 days.

Any suggestions on optimal yeast/concentrate blends?

Thank you ��

 

[bernardsmith]

You might also find that aging your cider 6-9 months transforms a good cider into an excellent one and may make a poor cider a better one. There are micro chemical changes that take place over months....

 

[MindenMan]

I have tried many different yeasts over the course of the last two-plus years, and I use Red Star Pasteur Red yeast for all my ciders (not the Champagne variety), with the rare exception of a Trappist style clone being the exception. It is not not fussy about temperature, it doesn't created rhino farts, and IMO at the end of fermentation the apple "flavor" hasn't run off to hide until later. As of yet I have had no "off" flavors produced in any batch so I won't fix what isn't broken.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

I think ill try the gervins english ale yeast (nottingham clone) which is much cheaper, and the brupaks english ale yeast seems to be a winner.

Im trying to think how to create something different from whats out there on tap currently. Ahh good ol differentiation

Nottingham is my new fav yeast, combined with Old Orchard AJC had a full delicious flavor at just 9 days.

Im also fermenting in my condo which is about 74°F. Hope that doesnt hurt!

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Question: I racked to secondary and fermentation halted! FG is 1.006, 1.008, and 1.010 in my 3 gallons on the right.

Ideally, next time I want to get to 1.004 as I think that will be a happy medium between dry and sweet for me, friends, family etc..

Anyway..as far as aging goes...should I bottle 3 gallons and put them in fridge for aging, leave them as is with airlock, or ?

I dont want them to go bad, but dont want to fill my fridge up if not needed. Thank you!

Backsweetened w/ some orange juice into fermented old orchard juice concentrate, and it tasted better than any cider Ive bought. Crazyness.

 

[ericbw]

You need to top up or use smaller jugs to limit air in the headspace. I would let it ride a while and check gravity again. 1.010 is a good gravity for a kind of sweet cider.

They won't go bad. Don't refrigerate.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Ok. I just hear stories of cider getting a vinegar taste. Is that just from oxygen, or bacteria also?

I'll top up. I can just leave the airlocks on right?

Also, fermentation has stopped so I guess I can pitch more yeast to restart it.

Cheers!

 

[ericbw]

Ok. I just hear stories of cider getting a vinegar taste. Is that just from oxygen, or bacteria also?

I'll top up. I can just leave the airlocks on right?

Also, fermentation has stopped so I guess I can pitch more yeast to restart it.

Cheers!

They get vinegar from bacteria; the oxygen makes it taste oxidized. But letting air in can let bacteria in. Use campden tablets to protect against both.

You don't need more yeast, just let it settle.

 

[Maylar]

Ok. I just hear stories of cider getting a vinegar taste. Is that just from oxygen, or bacteria also?

I'll top up. I can just leave the airlocks on right?

Also, fermentation has stopped so I guess I can pitch more yeast to restart it.

Cheers!

It takes both bacteria and oxygen to make vinegar. The head space you have there is not good. Those bottles should be full. Use one to top off the others. Use a siphon, don't just pour - else you'll mix in oxygen.

You don't need more yest, just more time.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

It takes both bacteria and oxygen to make vinegar. The head space you have there is not good. Those bottles should be full. Use one to top off the others. Use a siphon, don't just pour - else you'll mix in oxygen.

You don't need more yest, just more time.

I just checked gravity and they are all exactly the same as before (4 days ago). Fermentation has stopped, (no movement in airlocks, that I can see), probably when I racked it to secondary. I read Nottingham can do this. So....when you say let it settle, how will the gravity drop?

I will combine the two gallons to minimize the head space.

I am starting another 5-10 gallons this week. I will try to replicate the award winning AppleKush recipe as a good starting point. Any other suggestions? Shooting for award winning quality, with 7-9% alcohol

 

[ericbw]

I just checked gravity and they are all exactly the same as before (4 days ago). Fermentation has stopped, probably when I racked it to secondary. I read Nottingham does this. So....when you say let it settle, how will the gravity drop?



I will combine the two gallons to minimize the head space.



I am starting another 5-10 gallons this week. I will try to replicate the award winning AppleKush recipe as a good starting point. Any other suggestions? Shooting for award winning quality, with 7-9% alcohol

Gravity may or may not drop more, but there is a lot of yeast in suspension. Just believe it, it's there. That might be your final gravity.

I would not do 5-10 gallons till you see how this turns out. Maybe a 2-3 gallon batch.

You need to increase the sugar at the start to get your gravity up if you want 7-9%. Use sugar, honey, or apple juice concentrate.

Cider takes time. It takes time. It takes time. And more time. Unless you can filter it to clear quicker.

Get your OG to 1.070. Rack when fermentation stops, adding 1 campden tab per gallon. Top up so there's no headspace. Wait a month and rack again. Wait a month and rack again with campden. When it's pretty clear, you can bottle carb and get dry (!!) sparkling cider.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Gravity may or may not drop more, but there is a lot of yeast in suspension. Just believe it, it's there. That might be your final gravity.

I would not do 5-10 gallons till you see how this turns out. Maybe a 2-3 gallon batch.

You need to increase the sugar at the start to get your gravity up if you want 7-9%. Use sugar, honey, or apple juice concentrate.

Cider takes time. It takes time. It takes time. And more time. Unless you can filter it to clear quicker.

Get your OG to 1.070. Rack when fermentation stops, adding 1 campden tab per gallon. Top up so there's no headspace. Wait a month and rack again. Wait a month and rack again with campden. When it's pretty clear, you can bottle carb and get dry (!!) sparkling cider.

Copy that. Thank you.

The 5 gallons will be all different (1 gal jugs), I like to run many experiments at once. The controls are: Store Bought Spring water, Nottingham, AJC. Variables are everything else...sugars, SG, etc.. Then I experiment heavily with backsweetening. Allows me to have more variations, learn more, with less risk Right?

I am super impatient, how can I make the cider as fast as possible? (without seriously detracting from taste, or quality)

Maybe yeast nutrient, using a 1 micron filter when racking to secondary? The gal that I took airlock off and agitated reached lower gravity faster. Yeast need oxygen and nutrients to ferment correct? Call me crazy, but I want to crank out excellent cider as fast as possible. Maybe age for 1 week, 2 weeks max.

Cloudy cider is OK with me, as long as it doesn't affect taste. Considering filtration for sure.