Guessing what is the grain bill of this picture (IPA)?

[Miles_1111]

I would like to brew a west coast IPA exactly looking like this. What could be the grain bill for this? Pale ale malt for sure, crystal 40L? 75L? Munich malt?
How about this:
Pale ale malt 80%
Crystal 40L 5%
Munich Malt 5%

Can I get what I am looking for? Any thoughts or other suggestions?

 

[bracconiere]

i'd like it 'as pictured' base malt that's the cheapest, bit of crystal 20, if you're keen on munich it'd work, and definitely special b.....

that color just screams special b to me.....(no rhyme intended )

 

[Miraculix]

The foam whispers 5-10% wheat....

 

[bracconiere]

whispers 5-10% wheat..

i see your call of my scream, and being this is an ipa raise you rye.....we do still have 10% to work with, call it draw and 50/50?

 

[Miraculix]

i see your call of my scream, and being this is an ipa raise you rye.....we do still have 10% to work with, call it draw and 50/50?

Speaking of which, wasn't it you advocating a bit of rye instead of wheat for foam? I literally just have my first batch going where I'm trying that one out. 5% rye malt apa.

 

[bracconiere]

Speaking of which, wasn't it you advocating a bit of rye instead of wheat for foam? I literally just have my first batch going where I'm trying that one out. 5% rye malt apa.

beta-glucans? might have been, how many years ago? i just saw a post recently though, that said they have too much fat? i just LOVE the spiceness, and the way it goes with hops...

when you pour it, be sure to post to post a picture in one of the what your drinking threads...with a good double pour, first and half way through. and tag me in it...then i'll know if i was/or wasnot an idiot, but i still have plausible deniability either way...

 

[Miraculix]

beta-glucans? might have been, how many years ago? i just saw a post recently though, that said they have too much fat? i just LOVE the spiceness, and the way it goes with hops...

when you pour it, be sure to post to post a picture in one of the what your drinking threads...with a good double pour, first and half way through. and tag me in it...then i'll know if i was/or wasnot an idiot, but i still have plausible deniability either way...

Hahaha, I surely will do!

 

[bwible]

View attachment 763678
I would like to brew a west coast IPA exactly looking like this. What could be the grain bill for this? Pale ale malt for sure, crystal 40L? 75L? Munich malt?
How about this:
Pale ale malt 80%
Crystal 40L 5%
Munich Malt 5%

Can I get what I am looking for? Any thoughts or other suggestions?

I’d put an SRM value of 11-12 range on that. If your recipe lands you in that color range that’s what it should look like. Whatever it takes you to get there. Pale malt, some crystal, and maybe some munich, victory, or biscuit.

[edit] Crystal 40 is a good place to start. If that doesn’t get you dark enough you can move up to 60. If its too dark with other malts you can drop down to 20.

 

[marc1]

If all you care about is color, you could also do something like all basic 2 row with a touch of debittered dark malt like midnight wheat or carafa special to your desired SRM.

 

[bwible]

Lighting is key, but this my Best Bitter. I use BeerTools and it puts the color for this recipe at 13.6. This is not completely clear yet, only been in the keg a week. Tastes good. It would look a little lighter probably if it was clear.

This is a 5 gallon recipe at 1.046 with 6 lbs Maris Otter, .75lb Crystal 20, .25lb aromatic malt and .25lb cara-aroma. I also used some light brown sugar. 10 oz for 20 min. Not sure what kind of color that contributes.

If you knock this down toward 11 its probably right where you want to be.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I'll throw my guess in
75-80% pale malt or two row
10-15% caramel 60
the remainder malted wheat or malted rye

 

[bracconiere]

I'll throw my guess in
75-80% pale malt or two row
10-15% caramel 60
the remainder malted wheat or malted rye

just had a thought...nobody has mentioned carafoam, or something like it.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

just had a thought...nobody has mentioned carafoam, or something like it.

Isn't carafoam just the weyerman trademarked carapils?

 

[bracconiere]

Isn't carafoam just the weyerman trademarked carapils?

i saw it was a trademarked thing, but figured there'd be others...not sure about carapils?

 

[monkeymath]

I find it funny how everyone is guessing grain bill percentages without mentioning OG once.
90% pale ale, 10% crystal gives very different colours at 1.050 or 1.070.

So what's the target OG? And how do you want it to taste? You can probably dial in any colour you like using pale malt and a varying percentage of one dark (roasted or crystal) malt, but that may not be what you want the flavour to be like.

 

[Miles_1111]

I find it funny how everyone is guessing grain bill percentages without mentioning OG once.
90% pale ale, 10% crystal gives very different colours at 1.050 or 1.070.

So what's the target OG? And how do you want it to taste? You can probably dial in any colour you like using pale malt and a varying percentage of one dark (roasted or crystal) malt, but that may not be what you want the flavour to be like.

As I intend to brew a west coast IPA, the target OG would be 2.5P I think. So for example 90% Pale malt 10% Crystal and 97% Pale malt 3% roasted Malt will give me the same color but different OG. Is that what you were saying?

 

[bwible]

I find it funny how everyone is guessing grain bill percentages without mentioning OG once.
90% pale ale, 10% crystal gives very different colours at 1.050 or 1.070.

So what's the target OG? And how do you want it to taste? You can probably dial in any colour you like using pale malt and a varying percentage of one dark (roasted or crystal) malt, but that may not be what you want the flavour to be like.

Well that’s the beauty of percentages. You can make it any og you want, the percentages are out of the total grain bill, which will vary by og.

 

[monkeymath]

As I intend to brew a west coast IPA, the target OG would be 2.5P I think. So for example 90% Pale malt 10% Crystal and 97% Pale malt 3% roasted Malt will give me the same color but different OG. Is that what you were saying?

2.5°P is probably the target FG (*final* gravity), not OG (*original* gravity). Assuming 80% attenuation, that'd imply a moderate OG of only 12.5°P (for an abv of about 5,5%), which is kind of low for an IPA if I am not mistaken?

What I'm saying is that there are endless possibilities of achieving the same colour, but with a very different flavour.

Well that’s the beauty of percentages. You can make it any og you want, the percentages are out of the total grain bill, which will vary by og.

Yes, but the colour will vary wildly as well if you stick to the same percentages. The absolute amount of each grain matters.

 

[bwible]

2.5°P is probably the target FG (*final* gravity), not OG (*original* gravity). Assuming 80% attenuation, that'd imply a moderate OG of only 12.5°P (for an abv of about 5,5%), which is kind of low for an IPA if I am not mistaken?

What I'm saying is that there are endless possibilities of achieving the same colour, but with a very different flavour.



Yes, but the colour will vary wildly as well if you stick to the same percentages. The absolute amount of each grain matters.

I’m having a hard time with this. If 60 crystal is 10% of a grain bill, it doesn’t matter, right? Whether it’s 10% of 4lbs, 8lbs, 20lbs, or 100 lbs. 10% is 10%. Why would the color be different?

 

[monkeymath]

I’m having a hard time with this. If 60 crystal is 10% of a grain bill, it doesn’t matter, right? Whether it’s 10% of 4lbs, 8lbs, 20lbs, or 100 lbs. 10% is 10%. Why would the color be different?

Because it's not like the malts have a friendly discussion about which color they want the wort to be, but instead they all just contribute their color to a certain amount of water. The color that you see in the end depends on the concentration.
If you dilute a beer (or coca cola or whatever) with water, the colour changes. The dilution/concentration is, essentially, determined by the OG of the brew.

I feel like I'm failing to express something very trivial - let's blame it on language barrier.

 

[bwible]

Because it's not like the malts have a friendly discussion about which color they want the wort to be, but instead they all just contribute their color to a certain amount of water. The color that you see in the end depends on the concentration.
If you dilute a beer (or coca cola or whatever) with water, the colour changes. The dilution/concentration is, essentially, determined by the OG of the brew.

I feel like I'm failing to express something very trivial - let's blame it on language barrier.

No, I want to understand this to help me with recipe scaling and formulation if there’s something I’m not getting.

I get the dilution thing, but its not just that. Yes, you increase the amount of color malt, but everything else also increases proportionally.

Let’s do 2 simple recipes. 90% pale, 10% crystal. One with a 10 lb grain bill and one with 100 lb grain bill just to keep things simple.

10 lbs:
9 lbs pale malt
1 lb crystal
1.5 qts per pound mash water: 15 qts

100 lbs:
90 lbs pale malt
10 lbs crystal
1.5 qts per pound mash water: 150 qts

These recipes are exactly the same, except for the total volume. Same proportions of everything, including mash water.

This is why I don’t understand why color would be any different.

 

[Miraculix]

No, I want to understand this to help me with recipe scaling and formulation if there’s something I’m not getting.

I get the dilution thing, but its not just that. Yes, you increase the amount of color malt, but everything else also increases proportionally.

Let’s do 2 simple recipes. 90% pale, 10% crystal. One with a 10 lb grain bill and one with 100 lb grain bill just to keep things simple.

10 lbs:
9 lbs pale malt
1 lb crystal
1.5 qts per pound mash water: 15 qts

100 lbs:
90 lbs pale malt
10 lbs crystal
1.5 qts per pound mash water: 150 qts

These recipes are exactly the same, except for the total volume. Same proportions of everything, including mash water.

This is why I don’t understand why color would be any different.

6% roast gives you a different colour in a 4% Porter than it does in a 12% Imperial porter.

The colour contribution depends on the total amount, not on the percentage of the grist. Same goes for flavour as well, that's the whole problem with scaling using percentages.

More pale malt does not compensate for more roast colour, it does not make the colour lighter.

Edit: we are talking about scaling for different efficiencies or to get different ogs, you are scaling for volume, in that case you are right. That wouldn't change the colour, as long as efficiency stays the same.

 

[bwible]

6% roast gives you a different colour in a 4% Porter than it does in a 12% Imperial porter.

The colour contribution depends on the total amount, not on the percentage of the grist. Same goes for flavour as well, that's the whole problem with scaling using percentages.

Well yes because you are talking about 2 different recipes with 2 different grain bills. If you are making 5 gals of porter you might be using 12 lbs of grain. If your’re making 5 gals of imperial porter you might be using 20 lbs of grain. They are not the same recipe. You have more grain per gallon in one than the other. So yes you will get different colors and contributions with different recipes. Thats not really scaling. I’m talking about scaling the same recipe to a different batch size. 5 gallons vs 100 gallons of the same recipe.

I think there was also another discussion about different people’s systems having different efficiencies and whether that affects color.

 

[Miraculix]

Well yes because you are talking about 2 different recipes with 2 different grain bills. If you are making 5 gals of porter you might be using 12 lbs of grain. If your’re making 5 gals of imperial porter you might be using 20 lbs of grain. They are not the same recipe. You have more grain per gallon in one than the other. So yes you will get different colors and contributions with different recipes. Thats not really scaling. I’m talking about scaling the same recipe to a different batch size. 5 gallons vs 100 gallons of the same recipe.

I think there was also another discussion about different people’s systems having different efficiencies and whether that affects color.

Yes, my mistake. I saw that and edited my post, while you were already answering. Sorry for that.

 

[bwible]

Yes, my mistake. I saw that and edited my post, while you were already answering. Sorry for that.

No sorry, this is a forum for discussion and I’ve learned many things from people here. You guys are great

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Isn't carafoam just the weyerman trademarked carapils?

Apparently it's an international trademark mystery with a 'glassy' vs 'mealy' subplot: Carapils vs Carafoam (HomebrewTalk 2013, reply #5).

eta: some types of malt (munich, amber, crystal, caramel, ...) vary (in meaningful ways) by maltster.

 

[monkeymath]

No, I want to understand this to help me with recipe scaling and formulation if there’s something I’m not getting.

I get the dilution thing, but its not just that. Yes, you increase the amount of color malt, but everything else also increases proportionally.

Yeah okay, I'll try and make it more clear. In teaching, I've often found that such situations arise when one party makes an invisible implicit assumption without even being aware of it, and the best way to resolve it is to drill down into the little steps in between. So I'll now try to make my reasoning as explicit as I can - not as a rhetorical trick try to make you look like a five year old, but just to find the root of confusion.

You said you agreed about the dilution thing, and I think adjusting OG is, in a sense, a matter of dilution.

Let's say I make a 1.080 beer using X amount of grain and Y of water. Diluting at packaging, I add Y litres of water, which gives me a lighter coloured beer with, essentially, an OG of 1.040.
Talking only about colour, I might as well add the same amount Y of water to the mash tun (this will also bump my efficiency a bit, so I might come out at something like 1.045 instead, but that's not the point). Then I will have used the same percentages of grains as the original beer, but I'll have a much lighter colour, simply because the ratio grain: liquor has shifted.

As a somewhat extreme thought experiment, let's take a recipe that calls for 100% roasted malt (yummy!).
At a gravity of 1.050, this beer is going to be pitch black. If I brew it to 1.001 by just showing a bag of roasted grains to my mashtun and whispering the word "stout" next to the brew kettle, I'll have just slightly tinted water (hard seltzer?!).

 

[Bobby_M]

No, I want to understand this to help me with recipe scaling and formulation if there’s something I’m not getting.

I get the dilution thing, but its not just that. Yes, you increase the amount of color malt, but everything else also increases proportionally.

Let’s do 2 simple recipes. 90% pale, 10% crystal. One with a 10 lb grain bill and one with 100 lb grain bill just to keep things simple.

10 lbs:
9 lbs pale malt
1 lb crystal
1.5 qts per pound mash water: 15 qts

100 lbs:
90 lbs pale malt
10 lbs crystal
1.5 qts per pound mash water: 150 qts

These recipes are exactly the same, except for the total volume. Same proportions of everything, including mash water.

This is why I don’t understand why color would be any different.

Because it's not a matter of scaling the grain bill AND the total wort volume. We're talking about scaling the grain bill while holding the batch size the same. So grain percentages x relative color contribution x OG = resulting color.