I am new to cheesmaking and have made about 6 cheese around 4-5 weeks ago. The Romano cheese seems to be doing good, several of the others are vacuum packed so it's hard to tell how they are doing but seem OK. But the Gruyere is soft and really slimy. It's even hard to pick up it's so slimy. A few days ago I wiped it down so it wasn't as slimy but now it's slimy again. It's in the fridge at about 85% RH and 55F. Do you think this is normal? Thanks.
Gruyere problems
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It is. Gruyere will need to be washed with a light brine solution 2-3 times a week.
Dave, I'm more or less a freak for French alpine cheeses. I'm not sure what rind microbial community you're wanting to build, but generally it's pretty B. linens and other corynebacteria heavy. That means the rind has to be prepared by yeasts and other de-acidifying species and, in the case of these long-aged, hard cheeses, often an initial rind preparation of salting - rubbing with coarse salt. A friend of mine, a top-level maker, recommends roughly 1 dry-salting session for every 2-3 pounds. These wheels here are Abondance and came in at about 20 lbs. I went conservatively and so did 10 sessions of dry salt rubbing, then into washing with morge. Mind you, lots of makers do a whole month of this dry-rubbing before beginning morge washing. There are a ton of approaches which I know can be more confusing than helpful.
There are all kinds of approaches and this is just one - dry salt to prep the rind for morge washing, then start applying your morge (salt brine, inoculated with species from wheel to wheel) like Shelly Belly says, until the end when you start pulling back to a couple times per week, then finally once a week until the end of affinage.
Just some points:
-IMO 85% RH is too low for this style of cheese. At this humidity, you're really going to have a tough time getting linens to take off - competitive edge goes to molds, though yeasts and cylindrocarpons like Mycodore can fight on pretty equal terms. You'll get some linens, but it will be like a lightweight taking some jabs in a super heavyweight slug fest, before hopping back over the rope.
As you move into low 90's RH, the yeasts and Myco, etc., will start to lose to geo's and linens will gain a better footing - the fight it out here, so you can end up with a mottled rind - which is awesome to me, but I love very rustic rinds on tommes and tommes, Abondance and Reblochon are about all I do. If you want a uniform, even rind, maybe pull back on the dry salting, for one, and start in on the washing earlier.
At 95%, you're moving into linens territory and the earlier species cannot prevail; at 98%, linens tends to be master.
FWIW, The cave you see above was maintained at 98% RH, 52F.
-The sliminess. Did this start over the last bit, or has it been there for a long time - how close to when you brined it did you start noticing the sliminess?
-What color is the slime? Is it kind of a sticky slime, or truly like a mucus-lime?
-Did you dry the wheel after your initial salting?
-FWIW, starting out, I'd recommend getting vat, pressing, drying and initial salt processes down, before worrying too much about rind species formation. So, to that end, imo the Danisco culture blend PLA is awesome. Yeast, Geo, Linens, even an Arthrobacter in there. From there, you can start messing around and add in some other species, like MVA, which is a staphyloccus (micrococci). They nuance flavor, aroma, color, even texture, if they are strongly enough proteolytic or lipolytic (be careful - some species can really obliterate proteins and leave you with an intense bitterness. Stay conservative on the proteolytic strength of a chosen species, is my recommendation).
Or, even easier, find a gruyere you really like, do what you can to maintain it aseptic until your cave, wash the rind of the bought cheese with your brine cloth, then wash your gruyere wheel. A good many makers in France and Switzerland have no idea what's in their morge. They just know it works, and it's been drawn from wheels forever, moving flora from one wheel to the next.
Or you can go absolutely insane, spend a ton of money trying to emulate alpine ambient flora and engineer morges. Mine:
"Morge 2":
Yeast: (14%)
DH (11.2%) (.8 grams)
Geo 15: 2.8% (.2 grams)
Arthrobacter (4.2%)
MGE: (4.2%) (.3 grams)
lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2.8%)
LBC-80 (2.8%) (.2 grams)
Linens (75%)
SR3: (21.5%) (1.53 grams)
FR13: (25.2%) (1.8 grams)
FR22: (28.1%) (2 grams)
Staphylococcus: 7%
MVA (xylosum) (7%) (.5 grams)
Originally, I intended for more linens in the blend. Original Morge, "Morge Blend 1":
Yeast: (10%)
DH (8%)
Geo 15: 2%
Arthrobacter (3%)
MGE: (3%)
lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2%)
LBC-80 (2%)
Linens (80%)
SR3: (15%)
FR13: (30%)
FR22: (35%)
Micro-Cocci: 5%
MVA (xylosum) (5%)
I know this is a lot. My recommendation would be to up your RH if you can, ensure you're finding a way to get some air in there (opening the door a couple times daily is better than nothing), and let's nail down the sliminess.
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It been almost a month so I don't remember the details but as far as recall after I air dried the cheese for 3 days it wasn't slimy but started shortly after being in the cheese cave. The slim is the same color as the cheese, which is an off white color. Maybe it not really a slime but the cheese if "gooey" to the touch when I clean it and turn it. There are molds on the cheese which I wipe of with a simple brine solution (2 tsp salt per 1 cup water) every other day. I did dry the cheese after brining for about 12 hours. The only option I can see to increase the RH is to put the cheese in a ripening box with a damp towel. That may help. Thanks
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Tough to say for sure, as usual, as it could be several things: particular species of bacterias will do this; if the slime came in early but started to go away past week 1, that could suggest a normal rind cascade - your SLABs ("Starter Lactic Acid Bacteria," e.g., lactobacilli) will do this. Doesn't sound like what you've got. Cheeses that are oversalted can develop this - salt is drawn to the surface, and that surfeit of salt draws moisture up to the surface, voila, slimy rind; early linens, arthrobacters, micrococci development. Very unlikely because rinds go through a fairly typical cascade of events - your yeasts and yeast-morphology Geo's, help deacidify the rind, setting it up for the linens and "red" species (and yellow, and R2R's pink, etc).
My best guess is you have a cheese that may be somewhat oversalted. Nothing much to do but keep smearing. Note: Use a brine-MOISTENED brush daily and move your muck around, try to literally coat the wheel evenly with your "smear." Do not use a brine-soaked cloth. That's the last thing you need. So dip your brush with softer bristle in your brine, shake it off as well as you can, and brush your wheel.
If you can't get the RH higher, don't sweat it. See what you end up with.
Keep us posted, I'd love to hear how it's doing.
Thanks for all the information, some of it is beyond my understanding though. I thought maybe a picture might help to determine if there is a problem. Since I was at it I included a picture of a cloth bound cheddar. I'm not too concerned with this one. It seems firm all over but it sure is moldy.
First of all, thanks for the pics. Very beautiful cheeses! I've never done a clothbound cheddar though I absolutely love eating them. That look awesome. FWIW, don't know what his website is like anymore, but Willi Lehner is sort of the clothbound guy in our region. Also built a really nice underground cave. Might be worth a google, if you feel like it.
On your gruyere, it's hard for me to see any problem at all - again, congratulations, beautiful knit - but given your description, which was helpful, I believe I do see a wet rind. Have you scraped it at all? If so, do you get basically a gunky glob on your knife, whatever, and a firmer, whiter paste underneath?
I'm not advocating you do that now at all. Just wondering if you have, what you determined. I'd advise foregoing any washing for the time being, and just smear, gently, what you have, as I mentioned above. I'm seeing some linens there, which is a great sign. Linens, and/or another corynbacteria (my experience, though, non-linens corynbacteria gives you not so much an orangish hue as red, even yellowish). Linens will definitely make your rind sticky but that's once it's screaming and has outcompeted its cascade predecessors. And sticky is different than slimy, even a "loose" rind, something like a mild slip-skin as in cams or rebs that got out of hand too early.
You mention "soft" in your first post. Was that just another descriptor for the rind, or do you mean, the paste itself. If it's the paste, that's very likely another thing and it wouldn't lend to this rind issue.
Sorry on my above posts that dove into things not really helpful. Believe me, it took me a long time to understand cheese science and I remember very little now, so I'm basically starting over. I'll try to keep things better focused to the practical, and to your wheel.
I think you have done extraordinarily well. Let's just see if we can tighten up your rind.
On your gruyere, it's hard for me to see any problem at all - again, congratulations, beautiful knit - but given your description, which was helpful, I believe I do see a wet rind. Have you scraped it at all? If so, do you get basically a gunky glob on your knife, whatever, and a firmer, whiter paste underneath?
I'm not advocating you do that now at all. Just wondering if you have, what you determined. I'd advise foregoing any washing for the time being, and just smear, gently, what you have, as I mentioned above. I'm seeing some linens there, which is a great sign. Linens, and/or another corynbacteria (my experience, though, non-linens corynbacteria gives you not so much an orangish hue as red, even yellowish). Linens will definitely make your rind sticky but that's once it's screaming and has outcompeted its cascade predecessors. And sticky is different than slimy, even a "loose" rind, something like a mild slip-skin as in cams or rebs that got out of hand too early.
You mention "soft" in your first post. Was that just another descriptor for the rind, or do you mean, the paste itself. If it's the paste, that's very likely another thing and it wouldn't lend to this rind issue.
Sorry on my above posts that dove into things not really helpful. Believe me, it took me a long time to understand cheese science and I remember very little now, so I'm basically starting over. I'll try to keep things better focused to the practical, and to your wheel.
I think you have done extraordinarily well. Let's just see if we can tighten up your rind.
Last weekend before I wrote this post I wiped off the gooeyness from the cheese with a coarse cloth. I didn’t think of scraping it off. Scraping would have been better. It actually seems a little better now then before but is still sticky. By soft I mean the cheese in general. The cheddar seems firm when I pick it up but the Gruyere seems to be less firm. I’m not sure what you mean by paste but the outside has not hardened much at all so that when I pick it up to turn it is seems like I need to be delicate with it or I might damage it.
Paste is the inside of the cheese, as opposed to the outside or rind. In terms of the whole thing being soft, it's possible it wasn't cooked enough or hot enough, or was cut a bit long after renneting ("multiplier" - google Peter Dixon or Paul Kindstedt, can't remember who came up with this idea), or....any number of things. If you have a log and feel like posting it, that might give a better idea.
I wouldn't worry about it. I think you're going to have a great cheese. I'm not recommending you scrape off the rind or gooey stuff "on top," but rather that you just keep spreading it around without any more brine washing. Basically, making a true "smeared rind" cheese. If you do this, I suspect it will dry out and your linens will come under control. You're at 85% RH, so I can't see why not. One possibility, and I'm sorry I can't give a more complete picture as to why, it's been too long, is that this "goo" is rampant geo development (geo has a stronger lipolytic or fat breakdown potential, generally, so if you have mountains of active geo, you can get a situation where surface fat keeps breaking down, and it will be a goo. I don't think that's at play here, but something to consider), in which case you could carefully try a brine, but one much higher in salt content, geo being far less tolerant of salt concentration than linens.
I forgot who said it, but I like the idea. These cheeses are "reactive" cheeses. Affinage is not a kind of set and forget, but you watch what's going on and adjust - temp, RH, brine content and frequency, etc. - accordingly. For now, I really recommend you just hold off on anything but smearing the stuff around - by hand, no brush, knife, etc. Fully but gently smear.
I wouldn't worry about it. I think you're going to have a great cheese. I'm not recommending you scrape off the rind or gooey stuff "on top," but rather that you just keep spreading it around without any more brine washing. Basically, making a true "smeared rind" cheese. If you do this, I suspect it will dry out and your linens will come under control. You're at 85% RH, so I can't see why not. One possibility, and I'm sorry I can't give a more complete picture as to why, it's been too long, is that this "goo" is rampant geo development (geo has a stronger lipolytic or fat breakdown potential, generally, so if you have mountains of active geo, you can get a situation where surface fat keeps breaking down, and it will be a goo. I don't think that's at play here, but something to consider), in which case you could carefully try a brine, but one much higher in salt content, geo being far less tolerant of salt concentration than linens.
I forgot who said it, but I like the idea. These cheeses are "reactive" cheeses. Affinage is not a kind of set and forget, but you watch what's going on and adjust - temp, RH, brine content and frequency, etc. - accordingly. For now, I really recommend you just hold off on anything but smearing the stuff around - by hand, no brush, knife, etc. Fully but gently smear.
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