growing crooked stave dregs... smells like a bit of vinegar

[Rivenin]

So, the culture has been on the stirplate for the past week growing up and within the past few days it's all lovely and milky looking.
So i pulled the top off of the flask to add more wort to it and smell it and it smells like a wee bit of vinegar and i took a bit out to taste it and it is quite puckering.... i wasn't expecting that after a week at all.
Pretty sure i got some acetobacter in the flask... while i love my sours sometimes puckeringly sour. this has me a bit worried if i use it (was planning a saison).
I have the starter up to about 1000ml right now.
So the question is... is that much sour normal in a starter after this long with growing dregs?
also, if i toss it in to ferment a saison if acetobacter is there. is it going to get terribly sour? or am i just worried based on the smells and tastes of what could be very concentrated bugs right now?

Let me come in and say one last thing about this.... the sour level was on par with some of cascade barrel house offerings, super tart, like after a large glass it kind of gave you heart burn and tasted like you just had a bit of acid reflux... so i'm not sure if this is normal, it was just a bit potent and fast (i've brewed quite a few sours and one never took off this fast, but i've heard commercial bottles take off way faster)

 

[sweetcell]

what yeast and/or bugs do on a stir-plate isn't necessarily a reflection of what they'll do in a beer. even brett can produce acetic acid (AKA vinegar) with enough oxygen... like what it has access to after prolonged stir-plate'ing.

so, i wouldn't panic quite yet. if you want to be certain, and you have time, you might consider cold-crashing your starter for several days, decanting the spent beer on top, then pitching the "cake" (sediment) into a bottle of some sort - say a 750/bomber - filled most of the way with 1.030-1.040 wort (sanitized, etc). put on an airlock or sanitized balloon with a pinprick in it and give it 2 weeks to ferment at room temp. don't aerate after adding the cake, don't remove the air lock, etc. if, after 2+ weeks that bottle smells acetic, you should probably dump those bugs and start over.

FYI, i've gotten lactic acid (not acetic) from the two CS beers that i've tried. apparently lacto is in a few of their beers. maybe that's what you're picking up?

 

[BzurkoBrews]

About a month ago I stepped up the dregs from a bottle of St. Bretta Summer I believe. The beer wasn't sour but maybe had the slightest lactic notes to it. Anyways the start smelled exactly like the beer after the first step. Then got odd like all my Brett starters. When it was finally to a pitchable amount I noticed it smelled very lactic. I decanted some of the beer and it was very sour. I pitched the starter a few days later into my saison wort and within a week it the beer was very sour just as you described. I guess some of his beers just picked up a few cells of a hardy lacto strain before bottling and we propped em up!


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[sweetcell]

i had the exact same experience that i attribute to the above-mentioned bottles of CS. i collected dregs of (supposedly) brett beers - orval, evolution fall migration, matilda, seizoen bretta, and two crooked staves (hop savant and surette). the resulting culture gives a discernible lactic flavor pretty quickly. the CS beers were the only ones that had any hint of sourness so i'm assuming that's where i picked it up. it's quite nice in a saison, so a pleasant unexpected surprise. it does indeed appear to be a pretty powerful strain.

 

[Rivenin]

It indeed was the surette!
So it looks like it does have a powerful bug strain of sorts in it... i remember the saison having a nice lactic acid taste to it, would be nice for a glassful on a summer but not much after that. the kind of sours i enjoy sparingly... aka, the kind i could keep around for quite a number of years.
i did decant some of the starter (maybe a 1/4 cup) into a wine glass yeterday thats sitting in the fridge... going to wait for everything to fall out and try it again and see what happens.
Also that bomber/750 bottle idea is great, i may give that a try! brew day wont be for 2ish weeks, so i'm building this up slowly and getting a strong culture.

Also, i did smell/taste some of the decanted stuff last night, it's sweeter smelling which i'm sure is because the fresh wort yesterday, but also didn't smell as acidic... so we will see what happens! i guess if it becomes too tart i can take what would have been a saison and call it a "flanders golden" or something

 

[BzurkoBrews]

It indeed was the surette! ! i guess if it becomes too tart i can take what would have been a saison and call it a "flanders golden" or something

Call it a farmhouse ale or a historically accurate saison. Most traditional saisons would have had lactic infections from not so modern sanitation practices.



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[Rivenin]

Hah, good point! i already have some rye going into it, may toss some oats or something else in as well just to give it that "authentic" flair of random assortment of stuff tossed in.

 

[Rivenin]

Brewed... and not sure what i hit as my hydrometer broke, bought one but it was 2 days later, so who knows what it was. But within a day the krausen blew up and was VERY active and smells great... i know it's risky, but it's sitting above 80* right now and it is very happy.. so i'm hoping whatever bugs are in there are happy and dancing away!

 

[BzurkoBrews]

I just racked my beer brewed with only CS dregs onto 6.5lbs of nectarines last night. After 2 months it's incredibly sour and has that great Brett lactic aroma. It's at 1.002. I hope there's no pedio in it so I don't have to have for a diacetyl cleanup.


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[Rivenin]

That sounds fantastic! I may use the cake to do something else with soon, ala your fruiting. Lets see what happens!

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Keep an eye out for pedio....some cs beers do

 

[BzurkoBrews]

I grew up st Bretta witbier dregs. I don't think it was suppose to even have lacto in it. It wasn't sour when I drank it. Maybe just a ver very light acidity.


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[MileHighBrewer]

I grew up st Bretta witbier dregs. I don't think it was suppose to even have lacto in it. It wasn't sour when I drank it. Maybe just a ver very light acidity.


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By now, whats in the foeders is in every beer, at least in the bigger batches that do not go straight to barrels, which is mostly limited releases and reserve member beers

 

[BzurkoBrews]

Still I hope no pedio


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[Rivenin]

Here is the Saison next to the closet o' sour.
It blew up pretty nicely within 18 hours and has been chugging along VERY nicely

 

[Rivenin]

well... it's a dumper, it's been a month and it's OVERLY acidic... i took a sample yesterday and it burns something fierce and tastes like vinegar